Thelemic Conversion
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93
"I guess I separate Manchaeism from other forms of dualism"
I guess I'm having a 'slow neurons' day. Are you saying you agree with me?
93 93/93,
EM
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Well, yes and no.
I'm not convinced at all that the duality is a temporary framework to outgrow. The complement is that, beyond a certain point, one needs to grow back into it. To take a possibly unnecessarilty high-fallutin' example, the 8=3, in growing to 9=2, must undertake "the renunciation of His enjoyment of the Infinite so that he may formulate Himself as the Finite." (I pick that example because it started with an extremely high level of non-dualism.)
I think the main dualism to overcome is the idea that Kether and Malkuth are separate. Ultimately, there isn't any difference between "the One Thing" and "the ten thousand things," except the representation - and both representations are useful.
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@xkip93 said
"Let's say I create a cosmology/ mythology/theology/philosophy using the names from the Lord of the Rings characters. But I change them up. Sauron becomes a good guy, bringing freedom to everyone, Frodo becomes an evil spy, Gandolf a Black Magician and Gollum is the Saviour of Middle Earth, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
Can I say then that I brought to the table the "true meaning" of these characters?"
Not to move too far off-topic, but it's interesting that this very perspective was seriously discussed by David Brin, in an online article from 2002. I think that Phillip Pullman (author of the "His Dark Materials" novels) has also said similar things.
Steve
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Steve,
I have no knowledge (prior or current) of anyone using such an example.
I just used the LOTR example because I thought all could relate to it as a current mythology. If you are saying someone else used the comparison with LOTR and Thelema, well, that is going to trip me out. But the concept of just flipping a story and viewing it from another's point of view is not uncommon even in today's pop culture as seen in the story and stage performance "Wicked." Apparently the Wizard of Oz story viewed through the Witches perspective.-Xkip
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Greetings,
Well, Fr. LR filled in many of the other parallels of the names and concepts which Crowley uses in contrast with the Christian ideology found in the Book of Revelation. You asked what I think…well, I am no expert in the chronology of Crowley’s revelations, but all of it seems to be a progressive evolution over many years. It does not appear that he woke up one morning and decided to create his own religion. What amazes me is that over his lifetime the pieces fit together in quite a mysterious way to say the least. It appears that he filled in the blanks with his own methods of most every aspect of religious and spiritual practices, not to mention just everyday living down to eating and sleeping, making it an all inclusive way of life.
Fr. I-ness and I share some of the same observations and thoughts concerning this topic… I don’t want to repeat the same things he already stated but they may overlap. It seems to definitely begin early on in his life with the strict and dogmatic Christian upbringing in his youth.
This aspect, I think speaks to many people coming to Thelema because they too have been raised in a similar environment. It seems most of the Thelemites I have ever met, conversed with, read about, or listened to, came from a similar background. This I also find interesting though I guess it should not be all too surprising for many reasons.
I wonder if we took a poll of all the Thelemites in the world how many would admit they came from a “Christian” background or upbringing? This is telling on many levels IMO.
Could mean many things; which may include Christianity failed in fulfilling us or we are just a bunch or rebellious Satanists, lol.I have always thought that if one does not have a grasp on Christian doctrines, history and philosophy, one cannot even comprehend much of what Crowley speaks about in the first place.
Every other paragraph at times is full of quotes, parables, puns, and allusions from the Bible.I would like to know at what point he really began to put all of these parallels and contrasts together.
Here is another thought to ponder: What would Thelema be like if there were none of these contrasts or Biblical concepts involved?
Frater LR, I really don’t have the answers. But I do have many thoughts and questions concerning this topic. I appreciate all who have contributed thus far and I look forward to the upcoming dialog.
PS. Interesting day today as I randomly picked an episode of Thelema Coast to Coast to d/l to listen to on my commute to work and lo and behold it featured an interview with a representative from the Temple and College of Thelema!
I could not help but think today on my commute (and please don’t take this wrong as I do not want to sound like I am trying to flatter or whatever) but I am continually impressed with Jim and his taking the time to moderate this forum and answer even my elementary (and possibly irritating) questions.
Most of the people who I have come across in my lifetime who head up any type of spiritual or religious organization do not genuinely take time for the laity. I have also surely come across a few in Thelema who would otherwise turn me off from the current community altogether if it were only based upon their actions, attitude, or character. All I can say is thanks for welcoming me here and putting up with me thus far…you never know who you may be helping and to what degree.Light, Life, Love and Liberty,
Sincerely,
-Xkip
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lol... Well, I may be able to relate to your question, but that doesn't mean I have any sort of definite answer at all. Truth is, it frustrates the hell out of me.
Jungian psychoanalytic types speak of "redeeming the shadow" or "integrating the shadow" on the path to wholeness. And to me, it seems as if everything scandalous about Crowley revolves around redeeming (if that can be the proper term) all the ancient symbolism that was vilified by Christianity. This repression and vilification is woven all throughout the Western mind, symbolism, and speech, even within non-Christians. Crowley spotlights precisely those aspects of the Self that have been misunderstood, rejected, and repressed; and we are accordingly shocked and disturbed by them. Of course we are... That's the nature of the beast... so to speak
I wish it was easier, honestly. I wish that I could understand that pure pressure of Life, the Life Power ...what-have-you... without having to deal with terms like "Satan." But though the Life Power evolves into beautiful, proportional, balanced expressions of life, at its core it is an amoral, or perhaps "pre-moral," force. And if terms like Satan are avoided, these images remain buried and unexamined within the subconscious and cut off from our conscious image of the Whole.
Personally, I wish he didn't go so damn far in his demanding that all leftover Christian superstitions be eradicated. It sort of turns around on itself in the end and seems to support those superstitions in the subconscious as if in fulfillment of the very prophecies he seeks to discredit. And that, my brother, is the kind of knot that people like you and I have to learn to untie, cut, transcend, or leave alone...
Was it that he was so biased against Christianity, or was it that he was so in love with the liberation he found in all the formerly rejected symbols? Is there a difference?
Jung said that the emergence of the "Anti-Christ" was a psychological inevitability. Because the symbolism is so pervasive, it makes sense that this will happen/is happening on a large scale. In a way, you might say that Crowley has done us all a favor by providing a schema for integrating what may have otherwise been completely disintegrative energy - if that makes sense. To me, that's the value of his conception of True Will.
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@xkip93 said
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Could mean many things; which may include Christianity failed in fulfilling us or we are just a bunch or rebellious Satanists, lol."We are Satanists, but so are the rest of the Christians who are in denial of that fact. We are all Satanists in the West, who follow To Mega Therion "The Great Beast 666" some explicitly and others Implicitly. Crowley's Unique service to mankind in my opinion cannot be underestimated.
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Funny you should say this. I have long wondered, are we as Thelemites actually practicing some form of bizzare esoteric Christianity or are we subtle, sublime, sophisticated Satanists?
In spite of the shared frustration of some of these concepts I am still very much caught up in the rapture of the New Aeon and whether I like it or not I am slowly beginning to see through the eye(s) of Horus.
-Xkip
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@xkip93 said
" whether I like it or not I am slowly beginning to see through the eye(s) of Horus.
-Xkip"
http://www.cilco.co.uk/stock-photos/party-art/images/eye-of-horus-backdrop.jpg
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@xkip93 said
"Funny you should say this. I have long wondered, are we as Thelemites actually practicing some form of bizzare esoteric Christianity or are we subtle, sublime, sophisticated Satanists?"
Consider that the second coming of Christ is integral to the modern doctrine of Christianity; Lack of an "Anti-Christ" precludes "Christ", such that the significance of an "Anti-Christ" is equivalent to that of "Christ" even from a Xtian perspective being a prerequisite, and hence integral and indistinguishable from the Second Advent. This concept on deeper analysis can be compressed into Anti-Christ = Christ; either, being one side of an mirror image; This equation both intentionally and inadvertently Crowley personified. From a Xtian perspective, with a more literal leaning interpretation as far as gambles go, Jesus being the omniscient Son of God merely risked his physical body, while the ambitious but imperfect Crowley gambled on his very eternal soul! as such his sacrifice is the greater, a worthy advocate indeed if there ever was one!(':bush:')(':allout:')
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Etc. I'm just sayin', y'know? This isn't really something that distinguishes the present Aeon from what went before."So going back to the LOTR example, could we say that JRT did not understand that Sauron was really a benevolent leader and we needed to have sympathy for the Orcs plight, and see that they were they were the real victims?"
No, I don't think we could say that. He may have understood, or not understood. But it wasn't the story he was telling. Hells' bells, I get frustrated when newspaper editorial writers try to tell a balanced story and
won't stake a claim to a distinctive opinion. (Save it for the court room!) For a story teller (fictional or historical), it's fatal! Humans love stories, and stories thrive on division, reconciliation, and the stirring of strong partisanship for characters."I mean, is there not some Universal understanding of good and evil even among Thelemites?"
There is almost no universal anything among people who characterize themselves as Thelemites."
Very true!
I would add that sometimes the only way to get across an idea is through conflict and drama. Without that its true, the writer might as well write an essay, which may be dry and hard to understand for some people. I think that alot of people respond better and on a deeper level, to a spiritual concept when it is done in fiction. I know this is a different topic, I'll start one if anyone is interested in talking about it more.
Persephone -
Christ, Anti-Christ... two archetypes within the Self, like yin and yang. They battle within you.
From my perspective, it doesn't matter where you start. If you're headed for an experience and understanding of the great Unity, you'll eventually have to integrate whichever "other self" you've repressed and chosen to call "not self."
But as for me, I feel like a man without a home, so I'm afraid I'm no good as far as advice goes. Under some form or other, everybody eventually requires a vow of allegiance to something that seems to me to be merely one pole of a greater equation, and I'm weary of it. No more vows to half-truths. So, here I am, hanging out with some of the best and most "open" thinkers I've met on the subject, waiting for more light.
That's what drew me to your question, Xkip. Even for all his 0=2, Crowley at least outwardly seemed to reject anything that might be considered "equal time" in the presentation of his Christian symbolism and instead embraced only one side. And though part of me feels like it understands why, and can attempt a decent explanation of it, and has even experienced it to a certain degree, another part of me is left unsatisfied. Maybe I have too much positive experience with the other symbols - experience Crowley seems not to have had. I can't say that for sure.
What can you say? I guess it's impossible to climb the mountain by more than one road at once - even if you do say that all these roads lead to the same peak. Perhaps it's simply impossible to teach by more than one road at once and seem like one is saying anything of value at all.
Well.... No worries... "You know who" is guiding all the way...
Once again, I shut my mouth and look for the light of the lantern...
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@Frater LR said
"Christ, Anti-Christ... two archetypes within the Self, like yin and yang. They battle within you. "
They are one and the same, I don't consider them yin and yang, my yin and yang would be; Individual Anti-Christ/Christ vs Collective Homogeneity.
Below you proceed to show how your paradox is resolved"From my perspective, it doesn't matter where you start. If you're headed for an experience and understanding of the great Unity, you'll eventually have to integrate whichever "other self" you've repressed and chosen to call "not self.""
@Frater_AVV said
"But as for me, I feel like a man without a home, so I'm afraid I'm no good as far as advice goes. Under some form or other, everybody eventually requires a vow of allegiance to something that seems to me to be merely one pole of a greater equation, and I'm weary of it. No more vows to half-truths. So, here I am, hanging out with some of the best and most "open" thinkers I've met on the subject, waiting for more light.Once again, I shut my mouth and look for the light of the lantern... "
But you already have light, he very light under which you write those words!
Don't fall victim to procrastination for it's own sake for it is a deadly habit. 
"That's what drew me to your question, Xkip. Even for all his 0=2, Crowley at least outwardly seemed to reject anything that might be considered "equal time" in the presentation of his Christian symbolism and instead embraced only one side. And though part of me feels like it understands why, and can attempt a decent explanation of it, and has even experienced it to a certain degree, another part of me is left unsatisfied. Maybe I have too much positive experience with the other symbols - experience Crowley seems not to have had. I can't say that for sure."
If this is the corner stone of your house, then consider this the first-step in building your "New Home" let's call it "Psycho-Babel". Now start building other blocks around it, build either side simultaneously, for each black brick put a white one next to it or opposite it .
"What can you say? I guess it's impossible to climb the mountain by more than one road at once - even if you do say that all these roads lead to the same peak. Perhaps it's simply impossible to teach by more than one road at once and seem like one is saying anything of value at all."
Unless you are a "Time-Traveler" like me of course
in fact this is the very paradox such meta-physics addresses"Well.... No worries... "You know who" is guiding all the way...
"Are you sure?
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"Below you proceed to show how this paradox is resolved
"I know how it is resolved in me.
I wonder if I will ever find a path of instruction that embraces what Thelema has taught me about the perspectives of Hadit, Nuit, and Ra Hoor Khuit and express it so beautifully and simply as
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the Law. Love under Will"without demanding that I participate in ritual elements that seem so perfectly, precisely, and specifically ordered to be damning and defiant of the name under which I first learned to experience the Divine. You might as well ask me to swear intellectual allegiance to the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church or ask me to "walk the aisle" in a fundamentalist Christian church while "Just as I am" plays on the organ. I'm tired of "sides." "Sides" had me howling, balmy, mad out in a baseball field.
HaShem doesn't have a side. HaShem sits in the midst and Wills/Loves.
No matter the group, it always feels like I'm being asked to sign over my intellectual and spiritual freedom.
It could be argued that I'm not totally *intellectually and spiritually free *of my Christian experiences and past, to which I respond with the question, "Is binding myself to a diametrically opposite set of symbols really then the answer to that problem?"
I'm still asking these questions. This isn't my calcified position in an argument. But, right now, honestly, I feel like I've been stymied by Crowley's psychological baggage instead of his spiritual genius.
"You know who" was a tongue-in-cheek remark. It's when we give it names that we cause all the confusion, hence my lament.
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@Frater LR said
"I know how it is resolved in me.
I wonder if I will ever find a path of instruction that embraces what Thelema has taught me about the perspectives of Hadit, Nuit, and Ra Hoor Khuit and express it so beautifully and simply as
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the Law. Love under Will"without demanding that I participate in ritual elements that seem so perfectly, precisely, and specifically ordered to be damning and defiant of the name under which I first learned to experience the Divine. "
Thelema does not defacto favor any specific methodology of "Ritual Magick"; I believe Jim also pointed that out, AC had his preferred methodology, the importance is the end result; try to see past the symbolism into what the rituals are meant to achieve in each case, or in general, and then you can devise your own symbolism from there. If you cannot find a ready made system , syncretize and forge your own path,"every man and every woman is a star" draw inspiration from everywhere! I certainly do. Now you personally know I am developing my own filing and symbolic system; but I think it is necessary that this is interchangeable, compatible with, or reflective of, other universal systems, the basic ideas like 0=2 still remain the same albeit expressed in different form, my overwhelming tendency towards mathematics & theoretical physics demands this for my own development.
"It could be argued that I'm not totally *intellectually and spiritually free *of my Christian experiences and past, to which I respond with the question, "Is binding myself to a diametrically opposite set of symbols really then the answer to that problem?" "
In your particular case the answer may very well be Yes! one possibility is that you may need to identify with what you fear,
"I'm tired of "sides." "Sides" had me howling, balmy, mad out in a baseball field."
and thereby transcend either side, equilibrate the opposites, either that or become a Buddhist(of sorts)"I'm still asking these questions. This isn't my calcified position in an argument. But, right now, honestly, I feel like I've been stymied by Crowley's psychological baggage instead of his spiritual genius."
There will always be questions, but like i mentioned earlier, it seems you may be procrastinating or in denial; this is simple mathematics either you concur with 0=2 or you don't, if you do you can be creative enough to apply that in many ways, and some of those ways do require making a DECISION when there is a risk either way, and hence COURAGE!!!
Alternatively you may benefit from entirely different symbolism, like the original AE pantheon and their original Magickal Practices or John Dee's enochian! -
LOL....! I don't disagree with you on any particular point...
I'm still dissolving old schema's - patterns of automatic emotional reaction built into my subconscious. You got a slice of that process for Thursday, Sun in Leo, Moon in Aquarius, whatever that means. It's a back and forth process. I don't know what I will become, only that I'm becoming.
But I'm still here. I'm still assimilating and trying to re-organize. It's not like you can just walk away and forget the experiences this kind of thinking generates. There's just this continual sense of disbelief.... Really? Really....!? And on top of that... The real answer is the Bogeyman?
Shit. lol...
I'm just giving it all time to settle out... I guess we'll see...
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The pic response of the eye of Horus along with your quote (Fr. I-Ness) was classic.
Fr. LR, your honesty is compelling. I can relate with you on many levels and am quite amazed at some of them. Especially in terms of the Christian/Anti-Christian standpoints.
Everyone has their own formula, we fight with others to prove the validity or "rightness" of our own which we have either chosen or created and they do he same... "every man is right in his own eyes."
I have heard this concept over and over concerning "identifying with ones fear" in various camps but I am not sure I really understand this principle fully. I have always been one to "become" that which I am studying so to speak. But as far as the logic presented as such, that we must "take on"that which we fear or even abhor? Where do we find this taught in Thelema?
-Xkip
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@xkip93 said
"I have heard this concept over and over concerning "identifying with ones fear" in various camps but I am not sure I really understand this principle fully nor if I agree with it. I have always been one to "become" that which I am studying so to speak. But as far as the logic presented as such, that we must "take on"that which we fear or even abhor? Where do we find this taught in Thelema?"
"Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby cometh hurt.23. But whoso availeth in this, let him be the chief of all!" I 22:23
"Ah! Ah! Death! Death! thou shalt long for death. Death is forbidden, o man, unto thee.74. The length of thy longing shall be the strength of it's glory. he that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among Kings." II 73:74
"I reveal unto you a great mystery. Ye stand between the abyss of height and the abyss of depth. In either awaits you a Companion; and that Companion is Yourself. Ye can have no other Companion. Many have arisen, being wise. They have said<< Seek out the glittering image in the place ever golden , and unite yourselves with it.>> Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said,<<Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime.>> I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both! Beware, Beware, I say lest ye seek after the one and lose the other! l My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells. But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher. Thus shall equilibrium become perfect. I will aid my disciples as fast as they acquire this balance power and joy so faster will I push them."
Liber XC 33-42 -
@Frater LR said
" There's just this continual sense of disbelief.... Really? Really....!? And on top of that... The real answer is the Bogeyman?
shit. lol...
I'm just giving it all time to settle out... I guess we'll see..."
It may be because the Christian symbolism is so ingrained in your consciousness that integrating the diametrically opposed symbolism may be necessary for you. However the Holy Books themselves possess varied symbolism, & do not necessarily have the same level of Anti-Christian symbolism as Crowley's personal inclinations. I think this is a point worthy of consideration. However what is interesting in light of the above quote from Liber XC; One might say that Crowley was naturally attracted to the "Demon" so maybe you are right that his symbolism was incomplete, I believe Crowley did struggle with his ego and there is still a question mark
over how he died, regardless of what anyone says. That is why personally I always make a distinction between the man and the message, I suppose Crowley himself was aware of possible oversights and shortcomings, and hence he was particular about assigning his works to different classes.