Astral Projection Versus Lucid Dreaming?
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93,
I have a question.
Sleep/Dreaming scientists and researchers such as Laberge beleive that Astral Projection is a special hyper real form of Lucid Dreaming. Therefore there are no astral planes and the conciousness does not seperate from the body.
Laberge refers to the WILD method of lucid dreaming (Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming) - whereby you enter into a subconcious dream state directly from a waking state by holding on to your conciousness as your subconcious starts to dream.
WILD methods are very similar to occult methods. YOu basically enter a trance state, forgetting all sense of body, slow the breathing and heart rates, and keep your concious mind "awake" by maintaing diceplined focus on one thing. After about 20 minutes you enter what science refers to as the Hypnogogic State. Halucinations occur within this state that can be visual, audial and even tactile - and combinations of all three. Laberge and others argue that these halucinations explain all kinds of paranormal phenomenen - whereas they are infact a product of your subconcious mind starting to dream why you are still awake - you are therefore starting to feel or hear or see your dreams and the mind cannot diffrentiate between what is "real" and what is being dreamt. An analogy would be a stone skipping across the sufface of a lake - your concious mind "dips" breifly into what the subconcious has started to dream and you are breifly "in" a dream or hear/feel the action. As you progress these "dreamlets" increase in length until you find yourself fully in a vivid and stable dream.
If the dreamer chooses to ignore the dreamlets, then sooner or later as part of this hypnogogic state the brain shuts down the body with something called Sleep Paralysis - which prevents you from acting out what is going on in your dreams. The onset of this paralysis feels like your whole body is buzzing and shaking, that which has always traditionally been refered to as "the vibrations"
At this point the dreamer is asleep and the subcioncious is actively in a dreaming state but the conciousness is still alert and awake. If the dreamer then wills his/herself to "leave their body" then the subconcious provides this experience - what is known as dream incubation. The dreamer then conciously directs the plot of their dream by their will.
I am interested in what other Thelemites think of this.
Do you believe the scientists and all "astral" experiences are happening within your mind - not that this is not in itself and amazing and rewarding experience? Or do you believe that the soul/conciousness really does depart from the body during OOBE/AP?
I learned to AP the old way - and was able to "go astral" a couple of times a month. However I found that often I would have these strange dreams that preceded the vibrations where I was aware I was dreaming and could do whatever I wanted. I was curios about these strange dreams and did some research, and so came to learn about Lucid Dream induction techniques. I found by blending the old ways with some of the new (especially taking various supplements and amino acids that boost the clarity and vivdness of dreams and keep you at the wake/sleep boundary) I have been able to increase my success rate through the combined approach where I can now have 3-4 OOBE/AP/lucids a night.
I think Crowley would have approved - after all "the method of science, the aim of religion".
What do you think?
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@Serpentarius said
"If the dreamer chooses to ignore the dreamlets, then sooner or later as part of this hypnogogic state the brain shuts down the body with something called Sleep Paralysis - which prevents you from acting out what is going on in your dreams. The onset of this paralysis feels like your whole body is buzzing and shaking, that which has always traditionally been refered to as "the vibrations""
This seems overly reductive to me. On the one hand the connection between sleep paralysis and "automatic rigidity" seems to make perfect sense, but on the other hand interesting altered state "kundalini-esque" body sensations do not always develop in this direction. In my experience the effect is often the opposite - there is a heightened awareness of the body and a greater freedom of movement. Buzzing and shaking is part of the "body load" of many psychedelic drugs, but it often creates a hyperexcited state and not an automatically rigid state.
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93
Laberge is worth reading; many great techniques. He was my introduction into real magick. His opinions on 'what is happening' are his own, and don't affect the experience.
I think it is irrelevant whether you call it a lucid dream or astral projection. As for what is really happening, one could argue either way, and I prefer the larger worldview, instead of the narrow-minded materialism of Newton's paradigm.
93, 93/93
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Among the critical differences are that astral journey commences while one is awake, and it targets a particular location and goes there.
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i think it matters how these experiences are defined. if i didn't experience them, i could probably care less, but since i do and have since i was a kid, i like to look at the experiences closer and reasonably. i have different experiences in which people try to define what they are and place them in the right category. i think, for clinical purposes, its important, but personally, i just know each one is unique and different (to me). the few different types are significantly different in experience.
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I think the key here is the difference between astral projection and etheric projection. If we could design an empirical test based on etheric projection we might have some clue...although that does not rule out the idea that you are still "in your head" but have somehow divined knowledge of the material world.
Having said that, I have had confirmatory experiences of "material knowledge" through etheric projection, of which I managed to for the most part rule out problems of confirmation bias etc.
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For anybody interested in modern cognitive science and philosophy, there's a philosopher called Thomas Metzinger who's doing some great work on this area as part of his research into consciousness. This is highest-level highbrow stuff, but for anyone here who's into mysticism and magick and has read any "edge" science cognitive stuff (Dennett, Blakemore, Pinker, etc., etc.), this guy is pure gold:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Metzinger
For example, he has an essay on how he thinks the astral body is the origin of the concept of the soul in religion. His work also crosses over with mysticism in re. the virtuality of the self-model.
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In the course of my evolution as a human being, I experienced a period where I would lapse into a "lucid dream" every night before falling asleep. This condition lasted about a month. Frankly, the experience frightened me to no end. I liken it to being sucked out of one's skin while falling into an abyss of liquid fuzz.
To boot: at last I got wise and did some research. I found that many people "suffered" from sleep paralysis. Also, I found that some brave souls took charge, and used the experience to jump-start an out-of-body experience. Armed with such knowledge, I used my next "lucid dream" to facilitate an astral journey, which I found rather akward. My subsequent attempts to control this have come to naught, but the experience forever changed my ideas of "spirit" and "form."