Any experiences with the BOTA?
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Very good for beginners. Overall, the best courses on occultism I've encountered anywhere in any form. They were of enormous importance and value to me.
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BOTA has been discussed often in this forum, so you should do a search and see what people have said. I'm in about the 4th or 5th year of the course, and there haven't been visualization practices per se. But there is a lot of meditating on tarot cards, and I find that now I can easily summon the image of any of the 22 trumps, though I don't "see" them vividly. Also, more to the point, BOTA is in a sense about learning to get what you truly want, so if you want to improve your visualization then there are techniques from the very first lessons that you can apply to that end. Finally, as Case points out somewhere in his published work, "I'm" is the English translation of the God-name "Eheieh", so when you say "I'm bad at visualization", you are not only planting a seed that may blossom into bad visualization skills, but you are bolstering that seed with a word of power.
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I took the course for a year and I truly think it is a waste of money, except for the first seven lectures, which are very good and I do recommend that portion. I also have several of his books that they used to not publish in the old days, but now they do.
The reasons I didn't like them are:
1.) It's like a faucet that drips very, very slow. I know they think they are doing a favor by metering their lessons, but they cannot possibly know what pace is right for all students.
2.) The material is wrong in many places in that many of the details, correspondences are not in accord with the Crowley revisions. This is not a big deal to, me, and as other people have said on this forum, it didn't hamper them.
3.) Far more serious is the interpretation of the tarot, the alphabet and the magickal philosophy in general. This is where I disagree with those on this forum who say the course was great for them, because I see the same attitudes in the course, reflected in the attitudes of some of the forum members.
What I mean by this attitude is the hidden assumptions behind arguments that are not stated implicitly. It is very christian and they want all their students to be good boys and girls; and always be careful you don't get into any trouble. In a word, too conservative, too limiting philosophically and emotionally.
I think that this truly runs counter to the ideals of, every one is a star, and do your will, etc. Some of us need to reign our passions in, and some have to learn to let them go, and every one must be free to make mistakes.
Crowley was a hell raiser. This is important in my view, not something that should be dismissed or apologised for. If you step back from the picture of history and look at it in very broad terms, you will see that the modern human is a highly repressed, self-enslaved cult member of various religious, political and economic creeds. There is no error in trying to break those bonds, which will take every single drop of self in all it's mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical life's blood. In other words, the entire microcosm of man needs to be involved, and not limited to a nice safe mental sphere. There is nothing to be afraid of. If you die, you die. But so what? You still live, even in death. You will come back when the time is ripe. The only error is restriction.
4.) I think that the fees they charge of $15 p/mo for a couple of pages of photo-copies of material that is 70 years old is a rip-off and this would never be tolerated in the A.'.A.'.. They should publish the whole lot and get on with it (reserving the ceremonial, which is fine).
5.) The education, at least for the first year, is very imbalanced, and I think there are better systems of initiation than visualising a tarot card for five minutes a day. I think a better approach is a.) a wide course of reading in magick, philosophy, and religion to familiarise the student with the material, b.) simple prayers and adorations given to the student (encouraging them to compose their own if they wish) c.) some exercises in strengthening the will d.) getting into the habit of meditating and keeping a journal and e.) enjoying and living life to the fullest (no attitude of self-punishment as Crowley exhorts in Liber O). Now, that sounds like a familiar system to most here on this forum, or at least it should.
I want to relate that this is my honest and true, nothing-withheld critique of BOTA in my experience. In another recent post, I encouraged my fellow members here to do the same of their experiences with all magickal fraternities for the benefit of all, and also, perhaps to bring some light and fresh air into some of these dusty fraternities. Let the above be an example, if you wish.
In conclusion, my opinion is that sometimes the most insidious is that which seems so nice and good, with the best of intentions of keeping the student safe from "running off the rails." In my opinion, this tiny little detour on the path, whilst "protecting" the student at the beginning, will manifest itself years later down the line.
BTW, this is not a global rating or judgement of the members of BOTA or even of PFC himself. I know there are many good people in it. But keep in mind, that the goal is to transcend the whole notion of being a good or bad person, but rather to be perfect, whole and alive to the eternal glory that is All.
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Very early in his career, Case reportedly had a major opening of some of his psychic centers and apparently this was a very difficult experience for him. Subsequently, his own curriculum is devoted to safety and slow, balanced unfoldment. At least that's how I interpret it.
I tend to recommend it as the safest program out there. Individual attitudes toward that quality will vary according to temperament.
Personally, it was only after about three years of study with the BOTA that I had developed the vocabulary to even begin to be able to hear what the bogeyman Crowley was trying to say.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"The reasons I didn't like them are:
1.) It's like a faucet that drips very, very slow. I know they think they are doing a favor by metering their lessons, but they cannot possibly know what pace is right for all students."
I agree with them on this. It isn't about downloading data - it's about making fundamental change in you. It's possible (if you look hard enough) just to get the lessons in one lump, but I think that would be a total waste of time. It's the actual process of sitting every single day of your life and spending just a few minutes working on brilliantly crafted incremental steps that will actually make enourmous lasting change.
Yo ucan get the nuts and bolts in Case's books - but that's just not the same. They make good library volumes, but they aren't a course. A course is meant to change you.
"2.) The material is wrong in many places in that many of the details, correspondences are not in accord with the Crowley revisions. This is not a big deal to, me, and as other people have said on this forum, it didn't hamper them."
Admitted. But, again, it's not about data, it's about transformation. (I can make data changes for myself
.)"3.) Far more serious is the interpretation of the tarot, the alphabet and the magical philosophy in general. This is where I disagree with those on this forum who say the course was great for them, because I see the same attitudes in the course, reflected in the attitudes of some of the forum members."
One of the reasons for my recommendation of these courses is the magical philosophy they teach. (Not the rare religious philosophy that pops in here and there - everybody writes from where they find themselves - but the magical philosophy and, in particular, the rich yoga philosophy background that seeps through them).
"It is very christian and they want all their students to be good boys and girls; and always be careful you don't get into any trouble. In a word, too conservative, too limiting philosophically and emotionally."
FWIW I consider it nominally Christian. Not even Christian, actually, but using The Christos as a central image in places. I'm not sure what you mean by emotionally limiting, since Case was a pioneer (against the standards of the 1930s and '40s, of course) in addressing the sexual energies (for example) at a time nobody else but Crowley would even consider doing it.
BTW a funny story about that. In one of the early lessons, where the sexual energies obviously are being discussed, Case referred to "things we are not permitted to discuss in plainer language." Over the years, people thought he was talking about obligated material. In fact, he meant that it was, in his entire lifetime, a felony to mention sexual matters plainly in anything sent through the mail!
"I think that this truly runs counter to the ideals of, every one is a star, and do your will, etc. Some of us need to reign our passions in, and some have to learn to let them go, and every one must be free to make mistakes."
Interesting, because I've never found anything in PFC that ran counter to that. He did teach a lot about bringing the personality under control. (Good advice!)
I agree with you, though, that BOTA is less willing that some others to let people make serious mistakes that could be prevented. On this, I think they're entirely right. Yes, we learn from mistakes - but you don't have to blow your leg off to learn that it's a bad idea to step on a land mine. There are psychological equivalences to this, and I do hold that no responsible teacher (especially of beginners!) would let someone stumble into serious mistakes that could be prevented.
But you do good service to the thread to draw out this distinction.
"Crowley was a hell raiser."
As a person - but not as a teacher! (That's a major distinction that people miss.) His core instructions in magick and yoga were carefully designed to prevent serious errors that he knew how to prevent, and to encourage people to get immediate help if they stepped into certian kinds of problems.
Similarly, Case wasn't as careful in person as he is in teaching. His personal life had... more than its share of drama. (He was asked to leave the Alpha et Omega for reasons similar to those that gave Crowley "a certain reputation" in the G.D.)
"4.) I think that the fees they charge of $15 p/mo for a couple of pages of photo-copies of material that is 70 years old is a rip-off and this would never be tolerated in the A.'.A.'.. They should publish the whole lot and get on with it (reserving the ceremonial, which is fine)."
Publishing the whole would break the effectiveness of the method. As mentioned above... I think you're looking at this as data. That's the wrong way to look at their lessons. The lessons, technically, are free. (To prove it, they once replaced a whole batch for me at no cost, though I later made a donation they didn't request.) Rather, you're paying $15/month for membership in a system that, gradually and ove ra very few years, can produce significant spiritual transformation. (And, as you hinted, the first two months of rituals are worth a lot!)
I would agree with you on the above point if I thought the lessons were about building a library. But I don't. If you're just going to file them on the shelf and only sometimes pull them out for reference, don't waste your time. That's not what they were made for.
You complained that their education system doesn't have "some exercises in strengthening the will." And yet the system calls for doing a certain thing at the same time every day of your life for a few minutes, and holding both your visual and mental focus on a single thing for 5 minutes. These are pretty impressive exercises in strengthening the will and developing the power to concentrate! (I recommend the same thing in lecture after lecture as a basic exercise in concentration. I'm happy to steal what works!)
You say the first your practices don't involve the habit of meditating and keeping a journal. Except, that's exactly what they include. These are exact habits built!
"In conclusion, my opinion is that sometimes the most insidious is that which seems so nice and good, with the best of intentions of keeping the student safe from "running off the rails." In my opinion, this tiny little detour on the path, whilst "protecting" the student at the beginning, will manifest itself years later down the line."
Yes, but you can't advise the student to run off the rails and still have it be... running off the rails. They have to do that on their own, which they can only do with firm, clear boundaries in the first place.
Thanks for drawing out the discussion in this useful way.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"2.) The material is wrong in many places in that many of the details, correspondences are not in accord with the Crowley revisions. This is not a big deal to, me, and as other people have said on this forum, it didn't hamper them."
What's more, I'm not so sure the old attribution of Heh to The Emperor and Tsaddi to The Star is entirely "wrong" in the Thelemic universe. Liber Tau, supposedly an unimpeachable Class A document, associates Heh with the "Cubic Stone" and Tsaddi with the "Supreme Unvieling". The Cubic Stone is an alternate name for The Emperor in some traditions, and Isis Unveiled is clearly The Star. Also, Liber VII (V:5) has it, "Only one fish-hook can draw me out; it is a woman kneeling by the bank of a stream."
@nderabloodredsky said
"3.) ... It is very christian and they want all their students to be good boys and girls; and always be careful you don't get into any trouble. In a word, too conservative, too limiting philosophically and emotionally. ..."
I take Christianity to mean the doctrine that every man and every woman is a sinner deserving of eternal damnation and that your only hope is to acknowledge your inherent badness and accept Jesus as your savior. There is absolutely none of this in the BOTA.
On the other hand, there is certainly a "tone" that might suggest a sort of goody-goody moralistic view, especially to someone whose tastes run more to the heady wine of Crowley's style. I remember being aghast when the culmination of one of these precious lessons of The Ageless Wisdom was -- and I suppose I will suffer castration by rabid wolves and be cast into the pangs of Tartarus for breaking my Oath of Silence here -- to eat your vegetables. Also, I find it annoying when Case goes on about "that force which the Ancient Wisdom hints at by the association of the eighth astrological sign with the tarot key Death in its anatomical manifestation" when he might just have said "sex." Still, this is mostly a matter of presentation rather than substance. "There must ever be division in the word. For the colours are many but the light is one."
(By the way, that was a bit of hyperbole above -- there is no Oath of Silence in the BOTA.)
@nderabloodredsky said
"4.) ... they charge of $15 p/mo for a couple of pages of photo-copies ..."
If you look at it that way, it's certainly a fool's deal. You're essentially paying $180 a year for a smallish book, much of whose content is available elsewhere. But that's not the way to look at it. You are joining an organization, and $15 is not unreasonable for monthly dues. It represents a commitment to the work they do and a willingness to support them financially.
@nderabloodredsky said
"5.) ... this is my honest and true, nothing-withheld critique of BOTA in my experience. In another recent post, I encouraged my fellow members here to do the same of their experiences with all magical fraternities ..."
Let me second that encouragement.
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@Alrah said
"Then what you're doing is assuming a paternal role for the progress of your students. I suggest that this is only appropriate for students that have no unresolved issues wih parential authority."
I disagree. The role of teacher (especially in terms of responsibility) is inherently a parental role. - I agree that it is most useful and effective for students not carrying around big residual parent issues; but I see no reason to preclude those who still need to work those out.
In any case, consistency of rules and precision of boundaries is the key. I routinely advise Chiefs of our temples that one of their biggest responsibilities is to "hold the walls in place." We know that people, in the course of learning about themselves and their environment, will routinely throw themselves against the walls - testing both themselves and the walls. If (say, out of a mistaken idea of compassion) somebody moves the wall while someone is hurling themselves at it, somebody can get hurt - or at least miss the chance to learn something important about themselves.
"If you drop these students while they are sill working through issues though, you can do a lot more harm than good."
Valid. That's why it's generally up to the student whether to drop themselves.
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@gmugmble said
"Liber Tau, supposedly an unimpeachable Class A document, associates Heh with the "Cubic Stone" and Tsaddi with the "Supreme Unvieling"."
Something that people often miss: The textual part at the bottom of some publications of Liber Tav is not Class A. It's comment added by Crowley later.
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I am happily surprised at the level of critique by gmugmble, Alrah, Jim Eshelman & Frater LR; I respect the way they countered my arguments with theirs and added the benefit of their experience. I appreciate that very much. You see, it is possible to discuss these things without getting into a "pissing contest" as somebody else wrote on another recent post.
I think what Frater LR mentioned about temperament is true, and therefor it's not the program for everybody, which I am sure BOTA doesn't make the claim that they are for everybody.
But that's kind of my point: know thyself, then learn about the temperament of the fraternities you wish to associate yourself with, find the best match, and then go from there. The difficulty I have encountered is the prevalent attitude among magickal fraternities that denies the scientific argument about themselves, except in the broadest terms and never getting down to the knitty-gritty. This discussion, however makes a point-by-point, no-holds barred critique, and I think that this information would be useful to anyone pondering joining BOTA-either for or against.
One particular point I want to argue is this notion of the safety of the student and Crowley's approach to his students. What about his infamous advice to I. Regardie? Sounds like damn good advice to me, but I can assure you it's nothing I ever heard growing up from a parent, teacher, coach, priest etc. In fact, all I heard was to play it safe. I just don't think initiation is possible (at least for many people) by sitting on the sidelines of life and playing it safe, always taking the lowest risk, well-traveled road. I took the one less travelled by....I know from my personal experience, I didn't consciously find the path until I went off the rails. Does that mean I am advocating purposely harming or ignoring students? Of course not. But since we're discussing initiation, well, I'll just quote what one great intitate said, "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!"
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@Jim Eshelman said
"In any case, consistency of rules and precision of boundaries is the key. I routinely advise Chiefs of our temples that one of their biggest responsibilities is to "hold the walls in place." We know that people, in the course of learning about themselves and their environment, will routinely throw themselves against the walls - testing both themselves and the walls. If (say, out of a mistaken idea of compassion) somebody moves the wall while someone is hurling themselves at it, somebody can get hurt - or at least miss the chance to learn something important about themselves."
I think that this is true, which means that for some, their duty to themselves is to throw themselves at the wall, to knock it down, or knock some sense in to themselves. I guess it speaks to the nature of experience, tests, initiations, suffering and perhaps, "evil" in general: it is the counter-force that allows us to push against and propel ourselves up the ladder of initiation.
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93,
The split-off portion of this thread is now under Initiation, as Initiation and Experiences.
I'll remove this note in 24 hours.93 93/93,
Edward