Lunar rituals and "LIBER QOPH vel HECATE"
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as far as what veronica said i too think it is important to enjoy the beauty and joy of the world, as crowley knew all too well. but i also understand her getting a bit of a negative old boy feeling from him but of course most males in that period were like that so everyone is a product of their time.
i am by no means anything but a beginner but intuitively i feel that the moon should be according just as much respect and can do just as much good or progress as the sun in personal work. because there is no one side life.i had a specific question about what you said veronica in terms of:
"IMo this world is being saturated by an addictive quality (addicted to external sources, as well as addiction to the biochemical reaction that are occuring on a molecular level) that is allmost devoid of all positive lilfe enhancing feelings, and that any action/thought/habit that increases the magnitude of (for lack of a better term) positive vibration energies is worth doing and doing as often as possible."
where would you say this quality is coming from exactly ? or how? and is it any different now than in the past?
i also dislike the tendency toward this in Crowley's work but everyone has personal issues to overcome or at least try to overcome. and i think this just happened to be one of his. at least he had the courage to show it to everyone .
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i forgot to add, that it is indicative of the good and corrective nature of Thelma in general that this feminine lacking part of Crowley has luckily been corrected by none other than the greatness that is Kenneth grant. his works have followed Crowley admonition to take Thelema further and improve on it by addressing the imbalance. he uses the best (imho) fount of feminine knowledge that is Hinduism and tantra and combines it with Thelema.
so that's one place to look. -
@christibrany said
"i forgot to add, that it is indicative of the good and corrective nature of Thelma in general that this feminine lacking part of Crowley has luckily been corrected by none other than the greatness that is Kenneth grant. his works have followed Crowley admonition to take Thelema further and improve on it by addressing the imbalance. he uses the best (imho) fount of feminine knowledge that is Hinduism and tantra and combines it with Thelema.
so that's one place to look."While I agree that Grant has some good stuff to say, I have qualms with his ability to say it very well. Everything after "The Magical Revival" gets less and less followable and more full of bare assertions with little if any argument to back them up. In addition to this, his Qabalah is questionable, to say the least. Simply checking the math sometimes reveals large errors of calculation, and the correspondences and methods he uses sometimes differ dramatically from standard Qabalah. He doesn't generally explain (or even notice) his innovations, and thus it is almost impossible to judge them as the product of inspiration or simple pareidolia.
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for what its worth a lot of the gematria errors are not his fault but rather editing and printing errors. thats part of the reason they are reprinting them now.
and as far as his style it is definitely unique. i have to read some things 3 times before i get them, but while some people call that bad writing in this particular case i think he is just too knowledgeable and throws it all in. which is fine by me
just thought id let you know about the gematria thingy. i belieeeeve the new edition of outside the circles of time has corrected math . i hate math personally so i dont really check but thats what i was told.
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@christibrany said
"for what its worth a lot of the gematria errors are not his fault but rather editing and printing errors. thats part of the reason they are reprinting them now.
and as far as his style it is definitely unique. i have to read some things 3 times before i get them, but while some people call that bad writing in this particular case i think he is just too knowledgeable and throws it all in. which is fine by me
just thought id let you know about the gematria thingy. i belieeeeve the new edition of outside the circles of time has corrected math . i hate math personally so i dont really check but thats what i was told."
Interesting...I would like to see the new editions with corrected numeration. I have a high appreciation of mathematics.
As for being "too knowledgeable" and "throwing it all in"...I don't know. It's hard for me to know if it is knowledge or just rambling crazy if it doesn't relate to anything outside itself clearly. I am not blaming it for being dense or voluminous (when I was still in academia I was known for my love of both Kant and Heidegger...you don't get much more dense or voluminous than them), I am saying the ideas are not communicated clearly or distinctly enough for me to apprehend them at all, and that is "poor writing". It doesn't matter how much you know or have to communicate...if you can't communicate it well, then that is poor writing.
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Back to the subject of the moon...
"i feel that the moon should be according just as much respect and can do just as much good or progress as the sun in personal work"
It strikes me as interesting that the first two words of this statement are "I feel" and not "I think" or "I believe".
The moon does have this watery nad potentially stagnating aspect which seems to be more associated with Witchcraft than High Magick. There is no reason to privilege the moon over the Sun. Or to even see it as equal. The sun is our lord the giver of light and life. The moon may be an aide to our limited understanding of such a concept. Liber Resh fortifies one with solar energy, enhancing and balancing, along with other solar work, so that one can use this (along with energies cultivated through yoga)--especially while attempting more Lunar, Infernal, or Saturnian Magick.
At best Lunar Magick can be an exploration of aspiration, an opening of the senses, the mind, a freeing of the spirit. At worst it is enervating, misleading, and unstable.
I do Solar rituals in preparation for lunar etc. "I feel" that if I started doing Resh-like rituals for the Moon, Saturn, Mars, Venus, it might be an interesting experiement--but what would the timing really be like? Would I do a "Saturnian Resh" every four months? Once a week? This concept seems somehow confused.
As a path through which to begin to explore various potentials, and through which to begin to see the possibilities of Magick I can very much endorse "lunar" rites. I don't necessarily see the point of doing a Lunar Ritual modeled after Liber Resh. I am not even theorietcially certain that this would help align one with Lunar energies (or I can at least think of more theoretically and well-tested ways of doing this).
I'm also a bit confused by the tendency to want to Wiccanize Thelema. As a Magician you are certainly capable of engaging in any type or tradition of Magcik you like--but this seems like a confusion of formulae to me. Maybe I'm confused or too rigid, but I'm not sure I get the point.
p.s.
call me a stick in the mud but Kenneth Grant makes me nauseous.
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@A Shadow said
"Back to the subject of the moon...
"i feel that the moon should be according just as much respect and can do just as much good or progress as the sun in personal work"
It strikes me as interesting that the first two words of this statement are "I feel" and not "I think" or "I believe".
The moon does have this watery nad potentially stagnating aspect which seems to be more associated with Witchcraft than High Magick. There is no reason to privilege the moon over the Sun. Or to even see it as equal. The sun is our lord the giver of light and life. The moon may be an aide to our limited understanding of such a concept. Liber Resh fortifies one with solar energy, enhancing and balancing, along with other solar work, so that one can use this (along with energies cultivated through yoga)--especially while attempting more Lunar, Infernal, or Saturnian Magick.
At best Lunar Magick can be an exploration of aspiration, an opening of the senses, the mind, a freeing of the spirit. At worst it is enervating, misleading, and unstable.
I do Solar rituals in preparation for lunar etc. "I feel" that if I started doing Resh-like rituals for the Moon, Saturn, Mars, Venus, it might be an interesting experiement--but what would the timing really be like? Would I do a "Saturnian Resh" every four months? Once a week? This concept seems somehow confused.
As a path through which to begin to explore various potentials, and through which to begin to see the possibilities of Magick I can very much endorse "lunar" rites. I don't necessarily see the point of doing a Lunar Ritual modeled after Liber Resh. I am not even theorietcially certain that this would help align one with Lunar energies (or I can at least think of more theoretically and well-tested ways of doing this).
I'm also a bit confused by the tendency to want to Wiccanize Thelema. As a Magician you are certainly capable of engaging in any type or tradition of Magcik you like--but this seems like a confusion of formulae to me. Maybe I'm confused or too rigid, but I'm not sure I get the point.
p.s.
call me a stick in the mud but Kenneth Grant makes me nauseous."
Wiccanize? Being pagan =/= being wiccan.
Rigid? Maybe.
Coming at things from a basically monotheistic viewpoint? I think so.
Most people don't "see the point" of any of it, religion or magic or whatever. Many people reacted to this thread. They saw the point. In fact, many cultures, traditions, and people all through history have seen the point of lunar work. What did they know? Why did they do it? Why do they do it still?
"There is no part of me that is not of the gods."
"Humans are a complete microcosm."
"As above, so below."
Put that together with the actual existence of the moon, then maybe you will see the point, too. If not, then perhaps we are merely too differently constituted to share this notion, which cannot be helped.
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93
in reference to lunar work:
"The word lunatic is borrowed from the Latin "lunacus", in turns stemming from "luna" (moon), which denotes the traditional link made in folklore between madness and the phases of the moon. This probably refers to the symptoms of cyclic mood disorders such as bipolar disorder or cyclothymia, the symptoms of which may also go through phases. As yet there no evidence whatsoever for any causal link between phases of the moon and the progression of mood disorder symptoms. Correlation has been observed in distant parts.Mental institutions used to be called "lunatic asylums" or colloquially, "loony bins".
In Russian, Polish, Czech and Slovak, a lunatic refers to a sleepwalker, literally "one who walks under the moon" or "moon walker".
In Romanian, a word with the meaning of "lunatic" is "zănatic", derived from Latin "dianaticus", from Diana, the Roman goddess of the Moon.[1]"
Wiki straight up
93 93/93
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I have wondered often about my beloved Life giving sun.
Yes I know that my home here would be a cold stone, if it were not for the sun.
Yet I wondered if that was the key, then why is Mars so sterile now?
why do our brother and sisters planets have no life any more.Then I learned about balance and our core, and how the simple act of magnetism and electricsity gives us shield from the radiation of the sun, which if we did not have our magnetic field we would die, regardless of how life giving our sun is.
I do believe that the gravitational pull of the moon and earth together influences and controlls this magnetism/electric feedback loop, and the fact that we have a moon makes life possible. I know I have seen shows on telly stating if we didnt have a moon right where it is life here would not be possible.
As far as the cyclic nature of the moon, to produce our historical lunatics, et el, I do believe that fact has much to do with our bodies 75% water make up, and the monthly cycles of women, who i can personally attest do get pretty freaky during hormonal influces.
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My original Quote:
IMO this world is being saturated by an addictive quality (addicted to external sources, as well as addiction to the biochemical reaction that are occurring on a molecular level) that is almost devoid of all positive life enhancing feelings, and that any action/thought/habit that increases the magnitude of (for lack of a better term) positive vibration energies is worth doing and doing as often as possible.the questions asked:
where would you say this quality is coming from exactly ? or how? and is it any different now than in the past?
I tend to ruffle feathers when I explain my opinion of this. The follow is based on my personal opinion which I have come to. Your beliefs may vary, and probably will, but differences are what make life interesting:) I am basing my opinion from research in the medical field, nutrition, archaeology, physics, anthropology and of course occult sources. My response here could also very well be placed in the forum topic "Food is Sex" for the mechanics of this premise validate that statement.
To say it briefly, IMO this addictive quality stems from food originally, our desire to maintain a high blood sugar level. I also believe that it is our eternal quest to have our being saturated with endorphins and other chemicals that create pleasure that we go further down the addictive cycle and slip into other forms of substance addiction, as well as the high produced by certain states of mind (love, mystism, anger, stress). Adrenalin is a very powerful chemical, and one that once you get into a cycle is very hard to get out of. So many people "think" that the world is against them, that they are being attacked, and these simple thoughts, produce very real biochemical reactions in the body, namely the stress hormones responsible for "fight or flight". Thoughts are things. While our ancestors needed these chemicals to actually overcome an obstacle, we don't need them to get to our meeting on time, or deal with a personal argument, yet our body is producing chemicals that wash over our being to increase our survival as if the environment was life threatening. In the occult we are often taught that we have a etheric body, a spiritual body, a physical body an emotional body yet few people grasp that we also have a chemical body, made up of amino acids, proteins, hormones, and other chemicals that go beyond what we consider our physical or emotional selves.
I believe that my ancestors are much older then science can prove right now. I believe that my ancestors lived in tribes located in a specific location for a very long time. All over the world we had little niches of tribes living in prime local's. Tribes lived for of thousands and thousands of years in areas, becoming a unique representation of that specific location (diversification of life, all across the globe). In these specific location each tribe has it own unique food source. Because of the tilt of our earth axis we have seasons. With the seasons come different food stuffs availed only at certain times.. Through out nature because of these seasons there is a negative feed back loop in the food chain. During the bounty of the sun, we have plenty, and during the wanning, we starve.This fact heavily influenced our biochemical body. We didn't like starving so our body learned to metabolize food and store it in the body for future use (fat). This process of feast or famine that our ancestors lived under for thousands of years, regulated the size of the tribe, as they could only sustain as many members as the local environment could produce food stuff for in one growing season. That was an age of what I think of as a time of current sunlight, as apposed to our present culture that lives mostly on stored sunlight. The weak, old, and infants often died in the famine times, thus reducing the tribes numbers and not allow a population growth.
I know you have heard you are what you eat. It is so true, on all levels of our existence. Biochemically when we eat, we have to metabolize our food in the most effective way and convert it into energy for us to use. Our ancestors developed blood sugar levels that would wax and wan like the cycles of the earth. This is because they were not feasting all the time. We were biologically in tune with our surroundings, a perfect human reflection of the living life force of that specific region of earth.
About 10000 or so years ago, it has been speculated that in the Tigris/Euphrates region, which was lush with life, a particular practice commenced that would change our biological environment for ever. At some point, some where we decided to plant extensive crops to help us through the famine periods. The people started to grow large quantities of wheat, rye, corn, and other foods that could easily be converted into food, and easily stored. In Sumer we have beautiful Tablets showing the Gods giving us the scythe:) In mythology we have the appearance of fertility deities as well. It is my belief that this one single act of farming has had more ramification upon humanity then any other. Because our bodies no longer went through a famine period, it was constantly having to metabolize food. we had to come up with internal ways to deal with all the glucose in our blood which is toxic. Our blood sugar levels were being driven up to the roof. But, we love it. As a population we love the biochemical feedback that we get from eating. We literally get high just from food, and we want to keep this high as long as we can, so we store food.
As a culture the act of storing food stuff has many ramifications, growing food actually opened up free time for us, and allowed us to pursue ways to grow more food (religion and science) and ways to store it and safe guard it (stone cutters and guards). IMO we became obsessed with it (like any good addict does;) and could focus on nothing but.....and wa' la' in a geologic blink of an eye you have today's modern society that was brought about by the single act of one tribe in one part of the world, growing and storing food, and then because they needed more space for their tribe members (who were no longer being culled by famine) pushed out, invaded and concurred neighbors with all those strong young men they were growing with all that food. It has reached the point where this one tribe is now about 98% of the worlds population is is often time erroneously referred to as "Western Civilization".
Tribal units have a very effective way for dealing with "issues" or problems in their culture. These new society (the ones who control the food, and the ones who grow, process and eat-the haves and have-nots) found that the old system of dealing with issues was pretty impotent. Social dissatisfaction ensues in most circumstances, (unless you can find a way to control the people through "religion") which lead to many societal ills such as thievery, assault, murder , which are pretty uncommon in most tribal life. This dark side of life, where one is feeling defeated, caged, threatened, venerable, unflavored or restrained from living in a way that is in balance with ones surroundings brings many fellow brother and sister to the abyss of addictions on levels that go beyond blood sugar levels, the adrenaline junkie, who we see in so many forms today.
IMO it is because the fix we get from food, (and the notion of storing our food, and creating a culture) no longer does the trick, we as a people started looking for other ways to influence our biochemical reality.
This reality of our biological being, our chemical bodies is often disregarded by Salvationist traditions, is IMO is the bottom line in regard to reality. I can say ..."I was divinely taught the art of this or that", or that "the spirits told me this", or "I was guided to that"....yet ..I actually believe that most of these cases can be ascribed to improperly digesting matter. Proper digestion of anything consumed is the key, and our bodies had been working for thousands of years on a very strict diet of local food stuffs and fasting time periods that allowed maximum digestion of all matter (and while I am mostly speaking of the physical food people were eating, this also means other levels of their life as well, digesting spiritual matter, and emotional matter ect). Tribe life supported a healthy digestion process. we had been built and programmed if you will to eat a season local diet based on where our ancestors lived.For 100000 years my ancestors ate this and that from my specific region of the world, and my body attuned to that very well,. Now I am asking my body to shift, to be able to consume food from where ever in the world I want, any time I want. I am asking my body to biochemically change very quickly I think that is a lot to ask my little body, in such a relatively short period of time.
The feelings that also go along with this social status have deep biochemical results as well. With the well to do ,the ones who control the food, who turn out as kings, priests, guru types, often the ones who can claim the strongest, smartest, and most ruthless gene pool you (as demonstrated in natures Survival of the fittest notion. These rulers (by virtue of their free time from hard labor) show us glimpse the beauty of life, the love, and art as they are given free reign to explore other attributes of selfhood. The have nots on the other hand get to ride the downward spiral in all veins of perversion, debauchery, submission, depression, and feeling that are not life enhancing.
I know I just regurgitated allot of stuff for you and I hope I didn't cloud my words. This subject is something I am very passionate about, and believe that understanding how our blood sugar levels fluctuate is of upmost importance, as well as the key to overcoming the cycles of addiction response. I come from a long line of addicts of various sorts, and have worked and studied on figuring our how to help them for some time now. I also personally believe that when our genetic material was created, there were an outstanding amount of genetic disorders present, which makes me conclude that our genetic make up may have been "tampered" with. no other creature on earth has the thousands of genetic disorders that we being do, and I question why that is, and wonder what impact that has on our ability to consume and reproduce.
I hope I don't need to put on my fireproof underwear;)
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93 Veronica,
Liber XIII
"""53. I sailed over the sky of Nu in the car called Millions-of-Years, and I saw not any creature upon Seb that was equal to me. The venom of my fang is the inheritance of my father, and of my father's father; and how shall I give it unto thee? Live thou and thy children as I and my fathers have lived, even unto an hundred millions of generations, and it may be that the mercy of the Mighty Ones may bestow upon thy children a drop of the poison of eld. """One of my favourite lines~ever~
93 93/93
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@PainMeridian said
"93
in reference to lunar work:
"The word lunatic is borrowed from the Latin "lunacus", in turns stemming from "luna" (moon), which denotes the traditional link made in folklore between madness and the phases of the moon. This probably refers to the symptoms of cyclic mood disorders such as bipolar disorder or cyclothymia, the symptoms of which may also go through phases. As yet there no evidence whatsoever for any causal link between phases of the moon and the progression of mood disorder symptoms. Correlation has been observed in distant parts.Mental institutions used to be called "lunatic asylums" or colloquially, "loony bins".
In Russian, Polish, Czech and Slovak, a lunatic refers to a sleepwalker, literally "one who walks under the moon" or "moon walker".
In Romanian, a word with the meaning of "lunatic" is "zănatic", derived from Latin "dianaticus", from Diana, the Roman goddess of the Moon.[1]"
Wiki straight up
93 93/93"
Yeah, that moon has a bad reputation, historically. Like women, oddly enough. One wonders if there might be a connection between cultures who feared and suppressed women for thousands of years and their language.
You know who else has a bad reputation? Crowley. Thelemites. Mages.
Riddle me this, Batman: Have you tried lunar work?
To paraphrase: Taste and see that the Lady is good!
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I never said i didn't like lunar work. I do, I do it plenty. I think that one of the goals of Magick is to attempt to experience all aspects.
I just wonder if making a Resh-like ritual is really good lunar work. I guess my questions weren't clear in my last post:
Why do a Resh-like invocation for the moon?
Do you think the structure here would really help you understand/experience lunar energies?
Under what theory?
What i have qualms about is taking rituals which are formulated and structured for a specific purpose and changing them around to fit something you "like" or to make them more personally interesting without any reason why that would be appropriate.
Do lunar rituals all you like--but why base them on a solar ritual when that is not what they are? I think lunar work is different enough to iply an entirely different ritual style.
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A Shadow, 93,
"Do you think the structure here would really help you understand/experience lunar energies?
Under what theory?
What i have qualms about is taking rituals which are formulated and structured for a specific purpose and changing them around to fit something you "like" or to make them more personally interesting without any reason why that would be appropriate.
"How do you see the structure here having a negative effect? The aim is to provide a context for exploring what Lunar energies mean to a given individual. Using a devotional approach is a pretty standard way to do such exploration.
The magical principle strikes me as sound enough, even if each practitioner might want to tweak the wording. This approach wouldn't work for invoking Lunar energy a magician wanted to direct, but it would work for opening up the Lunar current for inspection.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Shunyata said
"in a Thelemic context I would not recommend a lunar adoration."
Crowley did.
"MWT*":om0lbojn]From time to time I have exhorted you with mine accustomed matchless eloquence never to neglect the prescribed Greetings: but I think it just as well to collect the various considerations connected with their use—and in "Greetings" I include "saying Will" before set meals, the four daily adorations of the Sun (Liber CC, vel Resh) and the salutation of Our Lady the Moon."
...the Gayatri is also discussed in the chapter on Pranayama in part I of Book IV.
729
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Puck, I did start some notes last weekend on the ritual form we discussed early in this thread. But I forgot to ask a couple of key questions:
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Were you looking for a solitary or group Moon ritual?
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Do you wish it keyed to any particular pantheon? (Classic Hebrew ceremonial hierarchy? something else?)
TIA.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Puck, I did start some notes last weekend on the ritual form we discussed early in this thread. But I forgot to ask a couple of key questions:
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Were you looking for a solitary or group Moon ritual?
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Do you wish it keyed to any particular pantheon? (Classic Hebrew ceremonial hierarchy? something else?)
TIA."
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Right now I am solitary, though I sometimes take part in stuff with my dad (Feri Trad) and the community surrounding the shop I and my friends founded in Santa Cruz, which is more general Pagan and Wicca, with Stregan influences. After a lifetime of being solitary and learning from books in my pursuit of the Great Work, however, I am trying to reach out and find groups, and I am planning on petitioning the A.'.A.'. soon.
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I have generally worked mostly within classical Hebrew/qabalistic structures. Most of my original learning was via Modern Magick by Kraig and lots and lots of Crowley, with some Regardie and Fortune thrown in. This means I am pretty flexible with deities, as many of the various practices included Egyptian, Greek, and Roman pantheons anyway, plus plenty of neoplatonic language. Generally I consider all possible gods within my purview. If I had to nail it down, I work best within classical Hebrew and Hermetic frames for ritual, and Thelemic, Greek, and Egyptian pantheons end up falling out of that.
Thanks again, Jim.
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Thanks. Have stuff to work on this afternoon and evening (don't fret if the forum is down for a short while, it's planned). But as I have the chance I'll try to write up the outline that was emerging last weekend - just for the fun of it and whatever interest it may have for you and others.
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@A Shadow said
"Back to the subject of the moon...
"i feel that the moon should be according just as much respect and can do just as much good or progress as the sun in personal work"
It strikes me as interesting that the first two words of this statement are "I feel" and not "I think" or "I believe".
The moon does have this watery nad potentially stagnating aspect which seems to be more associated with Witchcraft than High Magick. There is no reason to privilege the moon over the Sun. Or to even see it as equal. The sun is our lord the giver of light and life. The moon may be an aide to our limited understanding of such a concept. Liber Resh fortifies one with solar energy, enhancing and balancing, along with other solar work, so that one can use this (along with energies cultivated through yoga)--especially while attempting more Lunar, Infernal, or Saturnian Magick.
At best Lunar Magick can be an exploration of aspiration, an opening of the senses, the mind, a freeing of the spirit. At worst it is enervating, misleading, and unstable.
I do Solar rituals in preparation for lunar etc. "I feel" that if I started doing Resh-like rituals for the Moon, Saturn, Mars, Venus, it might be an interesting experiement--but what would the timing really be like? Would I do a "Saturnian Resh" every four months? Once a week? This concept seems somehow confused.
As a path through which to begin to explore various potentials, and through which to begin to see the possibilities of Magick I can very much endorse "lunar" rites. I don't necessarily see the point of doing a Lunar Ritual modeled after Liber Resh. I am not even theorietcially certain that this would help align one with Lunar energies (or I can at least think of more theoretically and well-tested ways of doing this).
I'm also a bit confused by the tendency to want to Wiccanize Thelema. As a Magician you are certainly capable of engaging in any type or tradition of Magcik you like--but this seems like a confusion of formulae to me. Maybe I'm confused or too rigid, but I'm not sure I get the point.
p.s.
call me a stick in the mud but Kenneth Grant makes me nauseous."
The sun is the indeed the source of light and life, but you can't eat it. It cannot sustain you. Without the Earth to harness that energy and to protect you (ozone), you would shrivel up and die. Also, without the moon, you would not have life as you now know it, nor light in the darkness. It's easy to forget that until you are in the woods without a flashlight and you literally can't see your hand in front of your face.
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Ugh, I'm not dissing the moon, and I never even mentioned the earth. I could write an essay on the linkages between sun/earth if you'd like but it's irrelevant.
Sorry for trying to bring up points of theory. I see that this group is more concerned with "I feel" than "I think" in any case.
Nevermind.