meditative state on cannabis
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@nderabloodredsky said
"? I thought his point of the shamanic experience, or tripping, is a valid and perhaps necessary part of the spiritual work? I personally don't see how it is any different, except in degree, of magical evocation?"
Of course the shamanic experience is fundamental to the Work. But not for its own sake. There's a tendency to get carried away with any psychedelic research: a tendency to take one's visions as valid. Psychedelics are a very handy shortcut. They make it possible to reach a level of consciousness that would take years of training for most. But it's silly to think that these states of mind can be had so cheaply. What psychedelics do, in a nutshell, is activate the kundalini energy. Without prior balancing, this energy is apt to manifest as Delusion, being unbalanced, uncontrolled. For stronger minds it is possible to control this energy, to alter it at Will. But other fall under sway. Witness Don Juan and Castaneda. There's a fine line between "the shamanic experience" and "madness". Most "medicine men" are merely channels for demonic forces. Ever seen video of Indians snorting DMT in the Amazon? Not a very appetizing sight. Unless you enjoy naked men with bloody snot on their face humping each other like monkeys.
If thou do ought joyous, let there be subtlety within!
Read about what happened to McKenna's brother after their Amazon experiment. He went, more or less, stark raving mad. Why? Because he allowed himself to think his experience was IMPORTANT. I can't tell you how many people I've met who smoked DMT for the first time, and suddenly thought they were going to save the world.
I think Crowley's words on the subject are perfect:
"I believe generally, on Ground both of Theory and Experience, so little as I have, that a Man must first be initiate, and established in Our Law, before he may use this Method. For in it is an Implication of our Secret Enlightenment, concerning the Universe, how its Nature is utterly Perfection. Now every Thought is a Separation, and he Medicine of that is to marry Each One with its Contradiction, as I have shewed formerly in many Writings. And thou shalt clap the one to the other with Vehemence of Spirit, swiftly as Light itself, that the Ecstasy be spontaneous. So therefore it is Expedient that thou have ravelled already in this Path of Antithesis, knowing perfectly the Answer to every Griph or Problem, and thy Mind ready therewith. For by the Property of this Grass all passeth with Speed incalculable of Wit, and an Hesitation should confound thee, breaking down thy ladder, and throwing back thy Mind to receive Impression from Environment, as at hy first beginning. Verily; the nature of this Method is Solution, and the Destruction of every Complexity by Explosion of Ecstasy, as every Element thereof is fulfilled by its Correlative, and is annihilated (since it loseth separate Existence) in the Orgasm that is consummated within the Bed of hy Mind."
There is no royal road to wisdom.
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@JPF said
" I can't tell you how many people I've met who smoked DMT for the first time, and suddenly thought they were going to save the world."
If everyone on the planet had this thought, then perhaps the world would be saved.
What you seem to be saying: a measured approach for initiates or those who have training, and I would agree with that theoretically, but I don't see it as realistic. My reading of Crowley is that in his younger years he was more logical, more rational, and through experience learned the absurdity of that, particularly with initiation. It would be nice, but some times you just have to set the world on fire and let people sort it out later (with the help of the occult sciences, east and west). Raising the Kundalini is an act of saving the world, through redeeming the world, i.e. the microcosm, one world at a time. In its earliest stages it may not seem so, however. But hey, what about trial by fire and all that.
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@Alrah said
"Have you guys seen Jill Taylors lecture 'A stroke of Insight'?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPMYdalCyA0"
I liked the video, it's in two parts: www.youtube.com/watch?v=haS61y2Q8nk
I think that there is no substitute for personal experience of the transcendental, or as she says, the left-brain.
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Also, JPF, regarding the Amazons:
while to my Western cultural attitudes, Amazon men with blood on their faces in some lunatic orgy is absolutely horrendous, it does not invalidate the experience the least bit. It's just a reflection of my own mental and cultural limitations (of which there are many). I could imagine the experience as being immensely powerful in breaking down the wall of that lower false self that the average Westerner identifies with.
Pretty much all of our Western sickness stem from this, our identity to the lower and separate self: our fear of death, loss of power or beauty etc. But the experience of the transcendental informs us now, gives us answers, not faith.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"Also, JPF, regarding the Amazons:
while to my Western cultural attitudes, Amazon men with blood on their faces in some lunatic orgy is absolutely horrendous, it does not invalidate the experience the least bit. "
Of course the experience is valid, in one way or another.
But I always strive to refinement in ecstacy, as per the injunction "refine thy rapture,"
Also: "if thou do ought joyous, let there be subtelty within."
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@JPF said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"Also, JPF, regarding the Amazons:while to my Western cultural attitudes, Amazon men with blood on their faces in some lunatic orgy is absolutely horrendous, it does not invalidate the experience the least bit. "
Of course the experience is valid, in one way or another.
But I always strive to refinement in ecstacy, as per the injunction "refine thy rapture,"
Also: "if thou do ought joyous, let there be subtelty within.""
How does one refine a drug-induced orgy? Put every one in tux & tails and serve caviar?
Terrance McKenna describes it briefly here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xin1FByhtE -
Also related:
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For the past month I have been researching drug practice in conjunction with magickal practice. Contrary to my previous beliefs, it seems that various entheogenic substances have been with humanity since pre-historic times and have possibly been instrumental and integral to the various religious and magickal developments worldwide.
I recently have been experimenting with Salvia Divinorum, still legal in most states. I smoked the leaf (no extracts). I can say that for me it is a very difficult experience. There is no mental inebriation or intoxication like with alcohol or weed, and because the physical effects are so strong (but not enjoyable), I can easily see how many people panic. There is a certain amount of helplessness as your mind, in all clarity, witnesses these terrible physical effects (for me it is like fire in the veins, then it's like your body is put through a meat grinder). It did take me to different place- a different world, and this is the primary magickal value to it.
My conclusions based on these experiences are: I am not prepared at this point to try again or go further without more "psychical" strength, stamina, confidence and courage; without more understanding and practical experience with different worlds and different entities that it seems that ceremonial magick prepares one for. I also am resolved to understand better the cosmology as put forth by the Ancients in the Book of the Dead and similar texts describing the underworld, it's inhabitants and locii.
If anyone has any comments on this in general or specifically with Salvia, then let's here them.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"If anyone has any comments on this in general or specifically with Salvia, then let's here them."
I have experiemented with salvia perhaps 20-30 times, in various preparations and potencies and in combination with other psychedelic substances. As an introduction to the psychedelic state of mind it is a useful tool, but the "body high" is extremely uncomfortable and the quick onset of hallucination is a little unnerving. In combination with Valium or Opiates it can be rather amusing, as these reduce the discomfort of the affair, but for the most part salvia divinorum is something high school kids take when they can't find real drugs.
The herb has a great deal in common with DMT, but as you state the side-effects are very uncomfortable. Loss of motor function, heavy limbs, and an inability to move or speak are most common. Afterwards there is severe disorientation combined with a weird sort of intoxication, like being very drunk and unable function.
All in all, a good teaser for the legally inclined, but if it's a "psychedelic experience" you're looking for, something like LSD or Psilocybin is probably more rewarding.
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I've developed a good recipe for a cannabis tincture which can produce very strong intoxication with a couple dropper fulls (15 strong doses per 1/8 oz. plant matter). The benefits are that you needn't irritate your lungs or create a smell in your environment and it lasts a lot longer once it kicks in (2 hours peaking, 4 hours coming down). Also, it creates a 'body buzz' much like pain killers without the restlessness afterward.
I think it would be ideal for meditation as long as not done at the end of the day when one is already tired. If anyone wants the recipe, just PM me and I can explain the process...it's not very hard.
Also, if you want to completely trip out on a small amount of weed, a different edible preparation can do the trick.
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Meditating with cannabis, for me at least, is the perfect aid in meditation. Normally I meditate for 30-40 min 2-3 times daily. With cannabis I will meditate for hours. I have found that it allows me to be much more introspective during meditation. Also, just being high alot of intensity will happen to you which you have already talked about. I find that the best thing to do is to stop any thought you have, smile, and enjoy what you can do.
I dont know if any of you are familiar with Timothy Leary and Robert Anton WIlson, 8-fold circuitry of the brain model. If you are, you will know that cannabis activates the 5th circuit (remember the map is not the territory). You can turn this on without cannabis too. I would say that if you can learn to master your mind and direct it easily on cannabis, you should turn on 6 and 7 with mushrooms and lsd. It is MUCH more intense, but once you learn to guide your trip, nothing you will experience using cannabis will compare to what can be experienced on those levels. Although, with those you need much better preparation for the experience.
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@hepuck said
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That's interesting (the Watts lecture). I have been working on an essay arguing for an "ontology of relation", where instead of objects being ontologically primary, being defined by sets of properties, and finally recognized as laying in relations, we reverse the notion and claim "to exist is to lay in relation" and then define objects via the relations they lay in (including properties, such as "A is red to X, where X=sighted observers with optical capabilities within such and so parameters")."Very interesting This essay sounds similar to my still developing thesis entitled "The Unified Field & The Time Machine" which is alternatively entitled "Theory of the Moving Point" which describes Time/Consciousness as a geometric series of changing relations. I would like to read this essay feel free to PM me if necessary.
Good thread i am very big fan of cannabis, and find different strains useful for different reasons it seems also to enhance creativity, imagination, and intuition, on the flip side personally it sometimes produces paranoia however this may be due to certain aspects of my life style. I find it a good meditative tool.
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@Alias55A said
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When i relax a bit, siitng in my chair outside, suddenly(and allways suddenly) everything will(reality, matrix style?) will flex, like in the first matrix when neo came back to life after jumping into agent smith, when he stretched his arms downward the room flex in and out like a bubble, very much like that, but when that happens i immediately get dissoriented until i stap out of it.
..."
You know most people assume that "sight" is an objective view of the world, whereas it has been shown that one cannot "see" what one does not 'expect' to "see" in other words there is a greater connection between "conception" and
"perception" than is generally assumed. Young children don't "see" T.V images until they "learn" to, the natives of South America were unable to "see" the invading Spanish ships because for them "ships' didn't exist. Then there is the mysterious case of Esref Armagan the blind man who "sees". www.newscientist.com/article/mg18524841.700-senses-special-the-art-of-seeing-without-sight.html
Cannabis often allows for a shift in perspective, the fact that you had a "Matrix Style" flex means your unconscious mind is breaking through into consciousness releasing your consciousness' monopoly on "perception", you have an amazing potential, but your" Conscious" is unable to "let go" that is when you "snap" out of it. if your "Consciousness" should "let go" and you didn't "snap" out of it, thee is a deep seated fear that one would be unable to regain ones current "Consciousness/identity" that is the disorientation part, and what causes the"Conscious" reflex to avoid losing its simulacrum; and presumably should it "let go" whether one would go either into some temporal or permanent form of Samadhi or Madness(lesser or higher); if the ancients are right it would depend on the Individual's level of mystical development. The effects are yet to be seen, if it is even possible to let go in such circumstances, i personally would love to observe that experiment. but obviously the fact that this happens at all is indicative of some inclination towards deconstructing your 'virtual reality" you are obviously a mutant like me
www.oneuniversalmind.com/report/download
P.S.. i have had similar experiences and also was too scared to let go.
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For those looking for serious examinations of entheogenic plants in light of psychology, mythology, history, & magick I recommend the following studies:
Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge: A Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution by Terence McKenna
www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge-Evolution/dp/0553371304/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271617850&sr=8-1*Plants of the Gods: Their Sacred, Healing, and Hallucinogenic Powers *by Richard Evans Schultes, Albert Hofmann, & Christian Rätsch
www.amazon.com/Plants-Gods-Sacred-Healing-Hallucinogenic/dp/0892819790/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271617901&sr=1-1*Ayahuasca: Human Consciousness and the Spirits of Nature *by Ralph Metzner Ph.D.
www.amazon.com/Ayahuasca-Human-Consciousness-Spirits-Nature/dp/1560251603/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271618030&sr=1-9729
EDIT: MAPS' free library is a great resource as well:
www.maps.org/freebooks.html