Your HGA's name
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Why would that be useful? (That's a serious question. I fail to see that it matters a whit for anything.)"
Jim – I find it hard to believe that you do not consider ascertaining Crowley’s comments on the nature of the HGA to be of importance. The fact is, Crowley gave different opinions on the HGA as he evolved. His mature considered opinion at the end of his life was that the HGA was an a priori objective individual. He also denounced the view of the HGA as one’s Higher Self as a “heretical and dangerous self-delusion”. These are strong words. So clearly Crowley himself deemed the identity of the HGA to be of central importance.
For myself, Crowley’s comments upon completion of the Abramelin Operation clearly refer to full-blown kundalini illumination. This makes sense to me. I can believe part of the experience might entail hearing a distinct voice in one’s head, a vision of the HGA, revelation of a personal magickal formula, lucid dreams, the awakening of various siddhi powers, sudden realizations about oneself, among many other distinct signs – physical and otherwise. This experience, which has been well-documented over and over, would suggest the view of the HGA as Higher Self.
Now I can accept your explanation for why one should keep the name of one’s HGA and personal formula a secret. On the other hand I cannot help but feel that Crowley’s tendency to clam up about his kundalini illumination, saying it is too sacred (cf. his comments toward the end of John St. John or upon completion of Abramelin), has more to do with the fact little was known about the phenomenon at his time and he himself was not really sure of what he was experiencing. The times have changed, however, and there are now numerous books published on the subject, with courses available to those interested. Our knowledge of kundalini has evolved and become more sophisticated. Yes, there are serious and real dangers involved in the awakening of the serpent energy as illustrated by Sri Gopi’s autobiography.
What I really don’t understand is how Crowley moved from this experience of kundalini into the assertion that Aiwaz as an objective individual was his HGA. Maybe that’s a comment that only makes sense upon attainment to 8=3. The only way I can reconcile this notion of HGA as Higher Self vs objective individual is by regarding the Higher Self (kundalini) as the first stage of KCHGA. The point of crossing the Abyss would therefore be to discover the objective nature of the HGA – as a Supernal entity.
So the "usefulness" of putting dates to Crowley's comments on the HGA, lies in matching them to his attainment of various grades. I suspect the transition from 7=4 to 8=3 is a key point and source of much confusion.
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As I see it, KCHGA would entail access to the collective unconscious and acquiring understanding of the universe. This is where the HGA as Higher Self is directly teaching the adept about the nature of reality - books and gurus no longer required.
This stage is then finally ratified by the adept crossing the Abyss into objective reality. This is where the HGA is discovered to be an objective individual.
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@he atlas itch said
"Jim – I find it hard to believe that you do not consider ascertaining Crowley’s comments on the nature of the HGA to be of importance."
He said so many things so often - and intentionally targetted his communications to individuals etc. You can't line them up all next to each other and put them on a time line or some such thing. He did change his view across time, but he also said one thing to the Adeptus Minor, another thing to the tyro, and mostly went out of his way never to leave anyone with a definitive "this pins it down" statement about any of it.
So, no. It's all lies (in the technical sense that this word is used by the Magus). The point is to have the experience, not to figure it out in advance.
"The fact is, Crowley gave different opinions on the HGA as he evolved."
I diagree. He gave different opinions depending on who he was writing for or talking to.
"For myself, Crowley’s comments upon completion of the Abramelin Operation clearly refer to full-blown kundalini illumination."
My reading of his subtle notes is that Crowley had major kundalini experiences before he ever joined the GD, meaning about a decade before he had K&C. More broadly, a number of people have reported kundalini breakthroughs concurrent with the K&C (Phyllis Seckler being one example), but these tend to be people who haven't had that result before - the two aren't linked - but yes, it does appear that if you haven't had the one energy break through by the time of the K&C, that this tends to happen then also. (In the A.'.A.'. system, one has the kundalini result at least by 3=8 before moving to 4=7, and most people have it much earlier than that.)
"What I really don’t understand is how Crowley moved from this experience of kundalini into the assertion that Aiwaz as an objective individual was his HGA."
He wrote that in Magick Without Tears. I totally disagree that the key here is that it was his end of life view. I am certain that the key is that it was his one book written for the absolute tyro - the complete beginner. I would put that side-by-side with Liber Samekh, which was written for the 5=6.
All of this argument or discussion misses what I think are the two practical points:
(1) Nobody knows nor can devine the formula by which another attains to the K&C. It is, therefore, of great importance not to impose a specific definition or point of view about it that could misdirect some subset of aspirants.
(2) The K&C occurs within the context of Briatic consciousness. Within Briah, there is no longer any sense of separation between two things, even when there are distinctive representations of separate things. Therefore, in the experience of the K&C it has become essentially irrelevant whether it is a separate or discrete being, because there is no longer any true separation even between (apparently) discrete beings.To put the second point differently: By the time the answer actually matters in any sense, it no longer matters! By the time one has the K&C, the point has become moot. Before that... hell, it's all theory, with the standard problems of that.
BTW (depending on the quote you are considering), I think you'll find, on closer scrutiny, that AC didn't say simply that the HGA is a separate being. He said something to the effect that the HGA is a separate being exactly in the sense that you and I are separate beings. Exactly in that sense. Not in some other sense.
"The only way I can reconcile this notion of HGA as Higher Self vs objective individual is by regarding the Higher Self (kundalini) as the first stage of KCHGA. The point of crossing the Abyss would therefore be to discover the objective nature of the HGA – as a Supernal entity."
I smell too much theory here. Too much effort to wrap words around something that somebody else has experienced.
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Talk about timing. Every morning when I open up Jung, I read about the archetype I dreamed of the night before. And every time I open up one of these threads I read about something I am just thinking about.
Just now reading the posts on Kundalini, right as I read the word "kundalini", I have the most intense kundalini experience ever. A white hot sword of energy ascends my spine, literally forcing my back and head into alignment, and bursting through my crown chakra. wow.
Thanks!
(and, considering that I'm not anywhere "near" K&C, this would tend to corroborate Jim's description of it commonly happening way earlier on the path
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"A white hot sword of energy ascends my spine, literally forcing my back and head into alignment, and bursting through my crown chakra. wow.
Thanks!
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That's cool. Keep going til you plug into planetary consciousness
Jim - thanks for clarifying kundalini and KCHGA are not necessarily the same thing. I finally had time to track down quotes. The passage I’m thinking of in MWT states:
*I have tended rather to elaborate this theme, because of the one personally important question which arises in more recent letters; for I believe that the Holy Guardian Angel is a Being of this order. He is something more than a man, possibly a being who has already passed through the stage of humanity, and his peculiarly intimate relationship with his client is that of friendship, of community, of brotherhood, or Fatherhood. He is not, let me say with emphasis, a mere abstraction from yourself; and that is why I have insisted rather heavily that the term "Higher Self" implies "a damnable heresy and a dangerous delusion."
It it were not so, there would be no point in The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage.
Apart from any theoretical speculation, my Sammasiti and analytical work has never led to so much as a hint of the existence of the Guardian Angel. He is not to be found by any exploration of oneself. It is true that the process of analysis leads finally to the realization of oneself as no more than a point of view indistinguishable in itself from any other point of view; but the Holy Guardian Angel is in precisely the same position. However close may be the identities in millions of ways, no complete identification is ever obtainable.
But do remember this, above all else; they are objective, not subjective, or I should not waste good Magick on them.*
hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_43.html
I don't find Crowley’s reasons for insisting on the “objectivity” of the HGA in this passage from MWT to be particularly convincing. So I can accept his comments have a strategic purpose toward a complete beginner – i.e. not to get lost in subjective ideas of the HGA, but to push oneself toward a distinct experience. I compared this passage against Liber Samekh, which is essentially an invocation of the entire inner planes, with the HGA being identified with Kether. The scope of Samekh would suggest the HGA is not the Higher Self per se, but an irreducible point dissolving the boundary between subject and object.
Given the warnings against mixing the inner planes, can you describe the characteristics falling under the term “Knowledge and Conversation” and how one is supposed to deal with this Briatic awareness? I’ve had experiences where there seemed to be no distinction between my inner private world and external world – it felt like I was losing my mind. Whatever I was thinking of seemed to “exteriorize” in the objective world. I’m wondering if “Knowledge and Conversation” means 1) knowledge of the connection between one’s inner world and exterior world and 2) learning to converse with reality, i.e. recognizing these external signs and responding accordingly?
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@he atlas itch said
"That's cool. Keep going til you plug into planetary consciousness
"I'll probably understand this later on down the road. So far, I think that the experience I had on Saturday was the opening of the Muladhara chakra, and an indicator that I've been part-way successful at my task of 'letting go'.
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@he atlas itch said
"I finally had time to track down quotes. The passage I’m thinking of in MWT states..."
As mentioned before, I think MWT should be interpreted as "advice to rank beginners who maybe haven't even started keeping a diary yet," rather than "Crowley's latest and greatest opinion."
"I don't find Crowley’s reasons for insisting on the “objectivity” of the HGA in this passage from MWT to be particularly convincing."
No. I think they miss the relevant issues altogether. For example, the claim "if I didn't think it was objective, I wouldn't waste good magick on it" is silly - and contrary to the main position of core instructions like Liber O which are based on the idea that "a particular method produces a particular result - don't worry about the theory of it all." The purpose of using the magick is to produce the result, not "because of This or That." (The theory is irrelevant to the result unless the theory affects the application of the method.)
Also, the subjective vs. objective argument falls apart if we agree to the limited idea that the HGA is not "ourselves" in any sense that we normally mean by "ourselves."
"Given the warnings against mixing the inner planes, can you describe the characteristics falling under the term “Knowledge and Conversation” and how one is supposed to deal with this Briatic awareness?"
LOL, you're asking for a manual on Life Beginning At Tiphereth.
I'm not sure what "deal with this Briatic awareness" means. One first needs to awaken it (which the work up through Dominus Liminis accomplishes).
Characteristics under K&C: I go very far out of my way not to do this most of the time, because the nature of the experience is so personal. I'll point you in the right direction, though, by saying it's essential characteristic is intimacy of a type and scope never previously experienced.
"I’m wondering if “Knowledge and Conversation” means 1) knowledge of the connection between one’s inner world and exterior world and 2) learning to converse with reality, i.e. recognizing these external signs and responding accordingly?"
Don't interpret "knowledge" as having anything to do with facts, data, etc. It's an older use, and means sexual union - preserved in the modern "carnal knowledge," but also found in the older forms such as "Adam knew Eve."
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Thanks for sharing that.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Also, the subjective vs. objective argument falls apart if we agree to the limited idea that the HGA is not "ourselves" in any sense that we normally mean by "ourselves."...Characteristics under K&C: I go very far out of my way not to do this most of the time, because the nature of the experience is so personal. I'll point you in the right direction, though, by saying it's essential characteristic is intimacy of a type and scope never previously experienced.
...Don't interpret "knowledge" as having anything to do with facts, data, etc. It's an older use, and means sexual union - preserved in the modern "carnal knowledge," but also found in the older forms such as "Adam knew Eve.""
Hi Jim
I hate to keep asking questions on this point, but what you're describing above sounds like kundalini illumination. The characteristics of it are:
- it's intimate and highly sexual
- the sense of self and world is radically altered
- all of the above occurs in a type and scope never previously experienced before - it's a very real experience.
- often there is an awakening of siddhi powers, with physical symptoms that can last for years
But if kundalini and KCHGA are not the same, it would be helpful to have a few hints to distinguish the latter from the former...
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@he atlas itch said
"I hate to keep asking questions on this point, but what you're describing above sounds like kundalini illumination."
There may or may not be kundalini phenomena. Often there is, but also many have reported it isn't there.
"The characteristics of it are:
- it's intimate and highly sexual
- the sense of self and world is radically altered
- all of the above occurs in a type and scope never previously experienced before - it's a very real experience.
- often there is an awakening of siddhi powers, with physical symptoms that can last for years"
This could apply to quite a few mystical phenomena or magical growth steps. You have skipped, though, the most obvious characteristics: a slamming cold-hot shaft popping up the spine like a light-saber, with any number of other sensations, visuals, absorptions of the brain, secondary sensory - in addition to the subsequent radical alteration of self and others, possible subsequent awakenikng of siddhi, and all the rest.
BTW, I also didn't say K&C was "highly sexual." Could be, or could not be depending. But it is characterized by profound intimate connection.
"But if kundalini and KCHGA are not the same, it would be helpful to have a few hints to distinguish the latter from the former..."
For one, if a person is going through the normal A.'.A.'. system they would have had kundalini phenomena many grades (possibly many years) before the K&C. For another, K&C would not necessarily have the those exact symptoms at that time, and would have other, highly personal characteristics that I'm declining to discuss (partly because they are so diverse from person to person).
The first (substantially full) kundalini awakening in my own life preceeded the K&C by five grades and 10 or 11 years. Though the K event was more dramatically altering than anything I had ever experienced, and made permanent changes in my world view, relationships, and behavior, it was a relatively minor thing compared to the K&C. I suppose it's fair to compare entering kindergarten vs. entering college. (Or one's first back rub vs. a blow job while peaking on acid.)
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K&CHGA is a very specific experience while Kundalini is a broad [edit: ok, "broad" is probably not the right word] category of experiences.
Many people report multiple Kundalini experiences over the course of decades. I have had 2 more since my first, plus almost constant peripheral symptoms.
(And from your last post Jim, there's no way I'm ready for K&C
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Yeah... and that needs to go on my bucket list too...
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Many people report multiple Kundalini experiences over the course of decades. I have had 2 more since my first, plus almost constant peripheral symptoms."
Yes. I didn't mean to imply only one.
Once one "loses one's virginity" in an initial breakthrough, subsequent ones tend to be less dramatic. They also may happen fairly routinely. (During one stage in my work, somewhere in late 2=9, I couldn't sit still for long without kundalini starting to flow, smoothly and easily. It was so automatic that when I told Soror Meral I couldn't sit long without it happening, she wisely instructed me to bring it under control - i.e., to recover the ability to be able to not have it flow.) I'd have to go through my diaries to determine whether there ever again was a new kundalini threshold that struck me as hard as the first one, but, going just from memory, I think there wasn't, and it was simply a frequent recurrence of the original during periods of intensive work.
"(And from your last post Jim, there's no way I'm ready for K&C
)"That last image I painted kinda communicated?
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(I wasn't correcting you, just pointing out what seemed to me a source of confusion between the two ideas)
And yes, your post confirmed what my intuition seemed to tell me - yes, you've just been proper f*ed, but it's only the tip of the iceberg..
I'll have to try to get it under control, I know. It just seems to have a mind of its own (I didn't deliberately summon it, haven't been doing yoga or pranayama, I've only been dream journaling - although the frequent snake dreams should've given me a clue...), and, without having a teacher or an order, I'm just having to rely on intuition and tips I read.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"You have skipped, though, the most obvious characteristics: a slamming cold-hot shaft popping up the spine like a light-saber, with any number of other sensations, visuals, absorptions of the brain, secondary sensory - in addition to the subsequent radical alteration of self and others, possible subsequent awakenikng of siddhi, and all the rest.
BTW, I also didn't say K&C was "highly sexual." Could be, or could not be depending. But it is characterized by profound intimate connection."
My experience of kundalini occurred while sitting at a desk in the fall of 89. I had been feel strangely energized for several days, almost giddy, and I felt the urge to hold my hand tightly over my navel area and hold it there for 5 minutes. After a few minutes I felt energy starting to move up my spine and accumulating at the base of my skull, clearing my sinuses. The pressure built up immensely until suddenly my skull was penetrated by liquid light – the hot/cold sensation. When your chakras open up and become energized like that, it’s like suddenly “plugging in” to the universe and having access to immense resources of energies normally inaccessible to consciousness.
Now you mention one of the aspects of KCHGA is “intimate connection” and I would be interested to know what one becomes connected “to”. For myself, the kundalini illumination was identical to profound connection with the universe – I even felt a direct energetic connection from the opened crown of my head to the stars. I felt like I was in the center of the universal joke and life was incredibly funny, that I could do anything. I remember playing a game with puzzled friends, laughing, and telling them, “watch me roll a double six” and throwing the dice. Sure enough - double six. That just made it funnier. I did it three times in a row, laughing all the way. That’s one of many examples, but what I remember was how easily things “happened” for whatever I willed. It was like my will and the will of the universe were identical and everything had become super easy.
Looking back, I think the laughter lay in the realization of how we struggle through life, feeling alienated or lost in the universe, not feeling at home, striving for more spirituality or power, when the entire problem lies in the simple fact that the chakras are not turned on, that we are not even aware of the switch, of our own potential, or how things really should be. It’s like trying to make hummus without plugging the Cuisinart into the electric socket.
What I can say for certain is that I did not see a vision of some entity like Aiwass. I did have unbelievably lucid dreams during this period - more real than waking consciousness, hyper-real colors, intense emotional feelings during dreams - and heard a voice tell me something that has stuck in my head to this day and guides me in my understanding of my True Will.
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@he atlas itch said
"Now you mention one of the aspects of KCHGA is “intimate connection” and I would be interested to know what one becomes connected “to”."
The Holy Guardian Angel.
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I like House Guest Anonymous
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I guess this comment by Jim really gives a graphic sense of what is meant by KCHGA:
I suppose it's fair to compare entering kindergarten vs. entering college. (Or one's first back rub vs. a blow job while peaking on acid.)
One thing that puzzles me. My question is, given the various descriptions in this thread of the scope and magnitude of KCHGA, how would Crowley know anything about the HGA, and be able to write Liber Samekh, prior to attainment of KCHGA? How would he even know what he was looking for - i.e. the difference between kundalini illumination and KCHGA?
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@he atlas itch said
"One thing that puzzles me. My question is, given the various descriptions in this thread of the scope and magnitude of KCHGA, how would Crowley know anything about the HGA, and be able to write Liber Samekh, prior to attainment of KCHGA? How would he even know what he was looking for - i.e. the difference between kundalini illumination and KCHGA?"
He wrote Liber Samekh in the 1920s, decades after having the K&C.
In terms of "what one is looking for," that's both individual and the fruit of initiation. That is, everybody is going to have a different idea of what they're looking for, and that idea probably will help propel them toward it. That doesn't mean that when they reach their goal it will match what they thought they were looking for. (It's almost a guarantee that it won't - because, previously, they probably weren't capable of conceiving the actual result.)
Perhaps it will help if I quote from the end of the Adeptus Minor chapter of my book, The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.:
"It is certainly possible that, by providing this range of commentary, we have done nothing more than confuse the sincere aspirant. Admittedly – given our view that the experience of what we call the Holy Guardian Angel is “utterly individual, utterly personal, particular, specific, and unique to each” – the only wholly consistent approach would be to say nothing about it at all. We have elected to balance this consideration against our responsibility to teach, by pointedly inviting every student to ignore any of the inter-pretations we have offered here unless they “strike home” as personally relevant.
Furthermore, this discussion is primarily aimed at those who are on the earlier stages of the Path. The Adeptus Minor surely already will have drawn (conscious or unconscious) conclusions about what it is that is sought, conclusions so inherent to her own nature that they may be entirely unconscious.
The real substance of this present chapter is that the Adeptus Minor has one task, the one task at which she has been aiming from her first entry onto the Path; and that now, prepared, she is pledged to undertake it.
Let, then, the Adeptus Minor undertake the Great Work and attain to the Knowledge and Conversation of her Holy Guardian Angel. "
And, from earlier in the same chapter:
"Whether the object of aspiration is personified as the True Self, the Augoeides, the Genius, Ishvara, the Logos, the Christos, Atman, Adonai, the Holy Guardian Angel, or any of 56 other possibilities; whether the goal is called adeptship, attainment, initiation, mastership, cosmic consciousness, samadhi, union with God, spiritual development, mahatmaship, moksha, liberation, or whatever; it is nonetheless true that, deep within each seeker is the Key to THAT which is sought, and which, though perhaps ultimately identical for each that has attained, is also utterly unique for each that aspires. Each name, each label, implies a rational or metaphysical theory that, being rational, cannot be true. By choosing the title of “the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel” which had been employed by Abra-Melin, Crowley admittedly elected a term that he felt had the least metaphysical baggage, and yet was so simple that even a child could relate to it."
As to how one knows what methods to select: The Angel guides one. Therefore, one simply has to start at the beginning and march, grade by grade, up the the gate. By the time one gets ready for that work, one either knows what to do, or is ready and qualified to decide it. (And it won't be the same for everybody.)