Understanding Ones initiation
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"But alot of astral travel points to the 'moon' - yesod, with is water right?
Though the Moon has much symbolic relationship to water, the sephirah Yesod is attributed to Air.
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And all this time i thought the moon was water
"also other sources refer the astral plane to water, emotions, and emotional boundaries.
You're being too intellectual and rigid on things that aren't intellectual and are definitely fluid. Both air and water, in nature, have currents etc. - you can describe something else that has currents (like the astral realm in Yetzirah) in terms of either, depending on context. The alchemists moved in and out of these more or less at will.
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Still I'm not understanding something, (too intellectual and rigid are things that have been more of a hinderence too me for a while now). Is the similar property bewteen both water and air conductivity? I do know for a fact as my mom use to say, human are like tighting poles, we are very conductive, like to electricity and energy. -
"But alot of astral travel points to the 'moon' - yesod, with is water right?
Though the Moon has much symbolic relationship to water, the sephirah Yesod is attributed to Air.
And all this time i thought the moon was water "Ok, I have a thought, you say water and air are alot alike, (in the metaphorical sense, not actual material substance), with currents, cunductivity, electricity, and so on. But I'm getting the fealing that sinse the moon, has a symbolic relationship to water like you said, mabye subconcsious. But is attributed to Air, the flow of thought? or would it been thought patterns/currents? What I'm trying to get at is in Gopi Krishna's book 'the evolution of man', forgive me if the title is wrong, its been 3 1/2 yrs sinse i read it. Gopi's experience with the kunandali or layayoga, unites the mind and emotions, this union of heart and mind working as one, which I guess is called the 'mind', mind not meaning just thought or air, or emotion/subconscious, but both? In which then one can fully feel the currents you attributed to both water and air? Am I atleast on the right track?
Note: All of the above is reffering to yesod.
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@Alias55A said
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"But alot of astral travel points to the 'moon' - yesod, with is water right?
Though the Moon has much symbolic relationship to water, the sephirah Yesod is attributed to Air.
"
And all this time i thought the moon was water "It's not that simple. The Sephiroth overlay multiple layers of symbolism. (Also the Sephiroth aren't the planets per se. That kind of pure symbolism is more likely to be found in the Paths of the planets.)
All Middle Pillar Sephiroth except Malkuth are attributed to Air. (Malkuth is Earth.) Fire winds from Chokmah to Geburah to Netzach. Water winds from Binah to Chesed to Hod.
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"also other sources refer the astral plane to water, emotions, and emotional boundaries.
You're being too intellectual and rigid on things that aren't intellectual and are definitely fluid. Both air and water, in nature, have currents etc. - you can describe something else that has currents (like the astral realm in Yetzirah) in terms of either, depending on context. The alchemists moved in and out of these more or less at will.
"
Still I'm not understanding something, (too intellectual and rigid are things that have been more of a hinderence too me for a while now). Is the similar property bewteen both water and air conductivity? I do know for a fact as my mom use to say, human are like tighting poles, we are very conductive, like to electricity and energy."Conductivity or, even more, fluidity, currents of movement, etc.
Different parts of our minds manifest differently at different levels. So, sticking with the Air and Water interweaving, in the World of Yetzirah (which is itself attributed to Air), we can call Air "intellect" and call Water "emotion" or "reactivity." But in the World of Briah (which is itself attributed to Water, and a higher, purer level), we can call Air "mind" and Water "feeling."
F'rinstance.
The only way I know to actually "get" these deeply is to pass through the traditional course of initiation where you are exposed to each of these sequentially, working your way through (several months per step) as you go up the Tree.
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PS - Gopi Krishna was referring to levels far past Yesod - nothing less than Tiphereth.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"PS - Gopi Krishna was referring to levels far past Yesod - nothing less than Tiphereth."
ooooohhhhh...ok makes sinse, now that you have make clear, in the world briah water is feeling and air mind. And yetirah water emotion and air intellect. Since full moon is almost here in florida, should i invoke air and luna and meditate on the energy? I think that might help me understand from a 'experiencing' point of view, meditating on the property's of that energy and righting down my results.
I have to say this interplay of elements have baffled me for yrs because I dont fully understand them, and I am trying. For years my wife has intuitivly told me, work with air, your element, since I'm aquarius, but i dont think it has anything to do with my zodiac sign, and I also geared towards the other three, confusing the moon with water for the longest time lol.
Now don't laugh, but i didnt really know what is meant my intellect.(For the sake of not using very discriptive words in my personal life, so I dont fully understand them) So I pulled of Meriam-Webster's dictionary to help.
Date: 14th century
1 a : the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge b : the capacity for rational or intelligent thought especially when highly developed
2 : a person with great intellectual powersNow since I just learned the definition of the word, I wonder how many millions of people like me thought of it as something less. Now, the 'power of knowing', is familiar to me, I think the ability is called cogsintient or cog something, but I have possesed the 'just knowing' ability about many things as far as I can remember, since I was a wee Lad per se. Now intellectual powers? would that be telepathy, tele/micro kenesis? remote viewing, mind reading, precognition? All the latter I have experience many times but couldnt ever get a grip on them.
If this is the intellect you are referring to, cool, if not, explain?please...
to feel by the same source: Date: before 12th century: transitive verb.
transitive verb
1 a : to handle or touch in order to examine, test, or explore some quality b : to perceive by a physical sensation coming from discrete end organs (as of the skin or muscles)
2 a : to undergo passive experience of b : to have one's sensibilities markedly affected byDate: before 12th century
transitive verb
1 a : to handle or touch in order to examine, test, or explore some quality b : to perceive by a physical sensation coming from discrete end organs (as of the skin or muscles)
2 a : to undergo passive experience of b : to have one's sensibilities markedly affected by
intransitive verb.
1 a : to receive or be able to receive a tactile sensation b : to search for something by using the sense of touch
2 a : to be conscious of an inward impression, state of mind, or physical condition b : to have a marked sentiment or opinion <feels strongly about it>
3 : seem <it feels like spring today>
4 : to have sympathy or pity <I feel for you>â feel like : to have an inclination for <feel like a walk
Ok. From the above latter, ofcourse this definition of 'feel' I can relate to, with the passive experience, tactile sensations and so on, also something I havent been able to fully get a grip on. Is there a esoteric deffinition different then this? -
@Alias55A said
"Since full moon is almost here in florida, should i invoke air and luna and meditate on the energy? I think that might help me understand from a 'experiencing' point of view, meditating on the property's of that energy and righting down my results."
Well, I don't know if that's what you should do. It depends on the exact result you want. For example, for some purposes it would be better (purer - definitely more mystical) to invoke Gimel instead of Yesod. But for some purposes, Yesod is exactly what you mean.
And for a Moon worship or adoration, I don't know that I'd invoke Air. Again, it depends on the exact goal. If what tyou really want is a Yesod understanding instead of a Moon understanding, then, yes, of course, that would be the way to go.
"confusing the moon with water for the longest time lol."
Again, I haven't said the Moon doesn't have affinity with Water. I've said that Yesod doesn't. Note the important difference.
"Now don't laugh, but i didnt really know what is meant my intellect."
In the sense intended here, it means the binary data-processing part of the brain and consciousness. Merriam-Webster is a perfectly respectable dictionary (though not my favorite, and one I'd usually only use if I had nothing else available); but the main point is that it's using the widest range of use of that word in our language. Some of those definitions are not what is meant by, say, the attribution of "intellect" to Hod. I might offer the simple definition that it is the predominant non-emotional part of our normal human consciuosness, primarily involved in data transfer.
(The Ruach has six primary functions or aspects: memory, volition, ego-centricity, desire, intellect, and the automatic consciousness.)
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"Well, I don't know if that's what you should do. It depends on the exact result you want. For example, for some purposes it would be better (purer - definitely more mystical) to invoke Gimel instead of Yesod. But for some purposes, Yesod is exactly what you mean.
And for a Moon worship or adoration, I don't know that I'd invoke Air. Again, it depends on the exact goal. If what tyou really want is a Yesod understanding instead of a Moon understanding, then, yes, of course, that would be the way to go"
I was more reffering to invoking luna in yesod to go with the natural element of yesod 'air', but I guess that does'nt make much sense. I looked up All astributes to Gimel, you are right, it is more the planetary essense of the moon, 'water', then yesod lol. Now why stick the moon to yesod?, like throw it in that world if the direct nature of the moon is Gimel(tipareth to kether), or is this one of those things where since yesod in on the middle pillar(same as Gimel) and yetzirah and the MP are air, which has to do with current and fluidity; one can direct the energy from the moon (Gimel) through yesod to be 'perceived', since that is a main function of yesod is perception right? ok I might have lost myself on that, which is a little stray from the point.
"The Path of Tav applies primarily to the mastering of the astral itself - the transition from Assiah to Yetzirah. Shin and Qoph are collateral practices - things which the Neophyte is to take up but on which he or she isn't yet tested. Shin refers to the meditatiosn in Liber HHH, while Qoph, as you indicated, refers in this context to divination. "
lol, I'm trying my best to stick to the original point. The path of Tav,(Saturn, dominion/slavery/the world/earth/ and cosmic consciousness(is a sickle the same as a staff?) anywho, now, im trying to keep it simple to the working of the neophyte conquering the astral through with with the path of tav, right? so astral is air, slight water mixed in which 'isnt as important as the current, and fluidity of air. ok still even tav and astral is saturn/earth-air(since tav is the veil between earth and air).ok taking a breath(confused) would this fluid/current element of air, which makes up the astral, have anything to do with pranayama?Ok, I'm going to attempt to simplify, (mabye I'm being to intellectualy rigid again?)http://www.servantsofthelight.org/QBL/Index.html
this link gives good info on all parts of the tree;malkuth, spiritual experience, vision of the HGA.
tave, meditation; cosmic consciousness.
I asked about understanding the nature of the astral primarly becuase it as what the neophyte grade requires master of, should I work with astral meditations with invokation of air? -
@Alias55A said
"Now why stick the moon to yesod?, like throw it in that world if the direct nature of the moon is Gimel(tipareth to kether), or is this one of those things where since yesod in on the middle pillar(same as Gimel) and yetzirah and the MP are air, which has to do with current and fluidity; one can direct the energy from the moon (Gimel) through yesod to be 'perceived', since that is a main function of yesod is perception right? ok I might have lost myself on that, which is a little stray from the point."
The sephiroth should never be confused with the planets attributed to them. The traditional phrase to describe the nature of the Sephiroth is that "they are the field of operation of the planets." So, the Moon, which is Gimel, has Yesod (subconsciousness, genitals, reproductive energies, and more) as the field where those Gimel energies operate.
There are other examples of this - color being a primary example. In the most common scales used, Yesod is violet and Chesed is blue; but Kaph (Jupiter) is violet and Gimel (Moon) is blue. So it is said that the Moon (Gimel) is operating in the field of operation of Jupiter - for example, through the rhythms, cycles, and similar "Wheel" (Atu X) ideas. Similarly, Jupiter in Chesed is working through the field of operation of the Moon, especially in terms of memory and other Gimel (Atu II) ideas.
A similar thing happens with the reversals with Sun and Mercury. The color of the Sun is orange (Resh), and this works through the field of Mercury in Hod - so Hod is orange (filled with all that sunlight). Similarly, Mercury is yellow (Beth), and this works through the field of the Sun in Tiphereth - so Tiphereth is yellow.
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"The Path of Tav applies primarily to the mastering of the astral itself - the transition from Assiah to Yetzirah. Shin and Qoph are collateral practices - things which the Neophyte is to take up but on which he or she isn't yet tested. Shin refers to the meditatiosn in Liber HHH, while Qoph, as you indicated, refers in this context to divination. "
lol, I'm trying my best to stick to the original point. The path of Tav,(Saturn, dominion/slavery/the world/earth/ and cosmic consciousness(is a sickle the same as a staff?) anywho, now, im trying to keep it simple to the working of the neophyte conquering the astral through with with the path of tav, right? so astral is air, slight water mixed in which 'isnt as important as the current, and fluidity of air. ok still even tav and astral is saturn/earth-air(since tav is the veil between earth and air).ok taking a breath(confused) would this fluid/current element of air, which makes up the astral, have anything to do with pranayama?Ok, I'm going to attempt to simplify, (mabye I'm being to intellectualy rigid again?)http://www.servantsofthelight.org/QBL/Index.html
this link gives good info on all parts of the tree;malkuth, spiritual experience, vision of the HGA.
tave, meditation; cosmic consciousness.
I asked about understanding the nature of the astral primarly becuase it as what the neophyte grade requires master of, should I work with astral meditations with invokation of air?"Of course, before you take the work of the Neophyte 1=10, have you finished the work of the Probationer 0=0?
In any case, you don't need to invoke Air per se in order to access the astral. It won't necessarily hurt, but it might not help. (It might, for example, make you more flighty, unfocussed, intellectual, etc.) Basic instructions for accessing the astral are in Liber O, among other places.
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"The sephiroth should never be confused with the planets attributed to them. The traditional phrase to describe the nature of the Sephiroth is that "they are the field of operation of the planets." So, the Moon, which is Gimel, has Yesod (subconsciousness, genitals, reproductive energies, and more) as the field where those Gimel energies operate.
There are other examples of this - color being a primary example. In the most common scales used, Yesod is violet and Chesed is blue; but Kaph (Jupiter) is violet and Gimel (Moon) is blue. So it is said that the Moon (Gimel) is operating in the field of operation of Jupiter - for example, through the rhythms, cycles, and similar "Wheel" (Atu X) ideas. Similarly, Jupiter in Chesed is working through the field of operation of the Moon, especially in terms of memory and other Gimel (Atu II) ideas.
A similar thing happens with the reversals with Sun and Mercury. The color of the Sun is orange (Resh), and this works through the field of Mercury in Hod - so Hod is orange (filled with all that sunlight). Similarly, Mercury is yellow (Beth), and this works through the field of the Sun in Tiphereth - so Tiphereth is yellow.
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wow, a bit confusing for me at the moment, I dont realy get it lol, but thinking about all this is causing dull pains in my lower chakras, base and navel. I think it's because i 'think and think and think' and it's starting to hurt, i dont think i can figure this out by thinking?
"Of course, before you take the work of the Neophyte 1=10, have you finished the work of the Probationer 0=0?quote]I'm going to go ahead without thinking and say no, I do know that 'mainly' you practice asana until someting 'happens' or 'cracks' or whatever word you want to use, and have a vision of the HGA. Which for the most part lbrp and asana is what im currently practicing anyways to build my focus, so i can have enough concentration for astral projection. Although in PA i had a weird astral experiences while I was walking around town of this weird ass white light that was supposivley as glimpse of my HGA which my mind attached the name holy ghost to it, but ofcourse my annoying thinking related it to christianity, after the shock of it ofcourse, it was like in and around me, and i rejected it. but I doubt that count's so ile say no again. And for the record I do have alot of vibrations from my kunandali everyday like a volcano that wants to erupt, which has been going on for yrs, only getting stronger the more I practice meditation, if that accounts for anything. lol you probly think im crazy, (I do) with trying to get past square one for the past 5 1/2 yrs, mainly because I couldnt stick with a damn system, so I'm sticking with this one, and hanging on with my death kungfu grip to it.
"In any case, you don't need to invoke Air per se in order to access the astral. It won't necessarily hurt, but it might not help. (It might, for example, make you more flighty, unfocussed, intellectual, etc.) Basic instructions for accessing the astral are in Liber O, among other places."
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what kind of energy would you suggest that might aid in astral travel? I have been working on getting comfortable in my body through asana, but i dont know if It has been long enough, It doesnt hurt to try. -
"There are other examples of this - color being a primary example. In the most common scales used, Yesod is violet and Chesed is blue; but Kaph (Jupiter) is violet and Gimel (Moon) is blue."
I dont understand it yet, but I have gotten to the part in the book of thoth where AC is starting to explain the relationship of the tarot to the paths and what not. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"These elemental names use nature as a metaphor for certain shared characteristics. Don't confuse a metaphor (applied to nonmaterial things) with literal material substance."
Or as I often drill into my Cabala students, Neil Armstrong was not the first person to set foot on Yesod.
I think the best way to understand the notion of the elements is to consider their alchemical description:
Fire rises from below to above
Water falls from above to below
Air is always above
Earth is always belowThis is why, in Thelemic Druidry, we swap the usual attribution of air and fire, linking them to the actions of the sun.
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"Fire rises from below to above
Water falls from above to below
Air is always above
Earth is always below"
very easy to understand, thnx"This is why, in Thelemic Druidry, we swap the usual attribution of air and fire, linking them to the actions of the sun."
Thelemic Druidry? relating to the celts in what way? So fire is also always above, and air also rises from below to above. right? is this a metaphor to describe the certain actions of these properties?(spiritually I guess?).