"Poverty is a state of consciousness"
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@Frater LA said
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Lab>" I do not believe anyone with a genuine awareness of True Will would waste any time or effort "advocating" anything. He would simply do that which he wants done."Completely sidesteps the issue of championing the oppressed."
No, it doesn't.
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@Labyrinthus said
"
@Frater LA said
"
Lab>" I do not believe anyone with a genuine awareness of True Will would waste any time or effort "advocating" anything. He would simply do that which he wants done."Completely sidesteps the issue of championing the oppressed."
No, it doesn't."
Instead of saying, "no, you're wrong!" I'm confident that you would go much further in being understood if you showed by example or some anecdote what you mean. For example, how do you fit Martin Luther King Jr. in your image of what is and what should never be?
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@Takamba said
"Look at all those "I" statements and the need to defend "I" or impress your "other" (me) about this "I" and your relation (perhaps) in comparison (competition with) the "other" (still, talking of me here in this example)."
I am not afraid of my "I". You see, Takamba, I am not delusional about my actual status here on planet earth. I am not in denial about my "I"ness. I believe that I have here a temporary body and an individual identity that I am able to opportunistically capitalize on in the interest of Eternal Goals.
Those who pretend to be in sympathetic oneness with the Universal Being while projecting words from the human consciousness are playing a game that does not serve the Eternal Purpose, if you ask me.
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@Labyrinthus said
"
@Takamba said
"Look at all those "I" statements and the need to defend "I" or impress your "other" (me) about this "I" and your relation (perhaps) in comparison (competition with) the "other" (still, talking of me here in this example)."I am not afraid of my "I". You see, Takamba, I am not delusional about my actual status here on planet earth. I am not in denial about my "I"ness. I believe that I have here a temporary body and an individual identity that I am able to opportunistically capitalize on in the interest of Eternal Goals.
Those who pretend to be in sympathetic oneness with the Universal Being while projecting words from the human consciousness are playing a game that does not serve the Eternal Purpose, if you ask me."
I too am not afraid of my "I"ness. I have an aunt whose name is Inez, she used to scare me. But my individuality does not scare me, nor my ability to feel for those I perceive who are also like me. And this is not pretending. I believe, though I may be mistaken, that you are afraid of Union. You are afraid of losing consciousness of this "I"ness, which in fact is not a bad description of the mystical experience of the Great White Brotherhood.
Yes, there are many who are pretending. Sometimes I just outright call them out loud "the Democratic party," but I'm usually mostly playing. I know better that not all people fit a mold even when they consciously choose to name their mold. But because some people follow altruism with false sentiments, that doesn't mean that all of us should become ignorant and not want to raise the entire population to a state of self awareness.
(by "raise to a state" I don't mean force, I mean afford an opportunity)
Now at this point I hear you saying "ah! so you think your awareness is 'higher' (aka, better) than that of others?!?" Yes. Yes I do. And I want to remind you of that moment earlier when I asked you to become aware of the irony of what you are saying - because the more obvious thing about you so far that every one else is finding fault with is that you are portraying yourself as superior to everyone else here. But I've gotten to know you and I for one don't actually believe that's you. I just believe that you are confusing yourself, and in trying to share your perceptions, have caused others to confuse you even further. And that's something that I believe you would like to not happen any more, and you can make not happen any more. Just accept that both you and I agree that your self-consciousness is all important, and your self is one of many "selves" that makes yet another kind of consciousness that is also all important. Stars with Twinkles someone once called it. And even though you don't fully grasp everything I've said (even if you think (think thunk thuuuu) you do, trust me - you don't), you don't need to disagree with it just yet.
I'll agree to hear you if you'll agree to hear me.
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@Takamba said
"I asked you to become aware of the irony of what you are saying - because the more obvious thing about you so far that every one else is finding fault with is that you are portraying yourself as superior to everyone else here."
Now that is rather surprising in its sheer audacity and presumptuousness. I have not met "everyone else here" so I would not even begin to portray myself as superior. I do understand how my failure to automatically** subordinate **myself and grovel sufficiently at the outset may have disappointed some here and that singular failure may be interpreted as a demonstration of superiority. But really I am left guessing at this point. Could you grab a few lines of what I actually said that demonstrates a posture of "superiority"? (Is simple disagreement viewed as copping a superior attitude?).
@Takamba said
"But because some people follow altruism with false sentiments, that doesn't mean that all of us should become ignorant and not want to raise the entire population to a state of self awareness. "
? become ignorant? I stopped wanting to "raise the consciousness" of others when I realized that I cannot raise the consciousness of others. Only the individual can raise Its own individual consciousness. i mean, if others were able to do this... wouldn't they have done it by now?
@Takamba said
"(by "raise to a state" I don't mean force, I mean afford an opportunity)"
Then why didn't you just say that? That is confusing. The active 'raising' act versus the more passive "afford an opportunity" are two very different expressions with completely different meanings. (?) I do not think they are at all interchangeable.
@Takamba said
"Just accept that both you and I agree that your self-consciousness is all important, and your self is one of many "selves" that makes yet another kind of consciousness that is also all important."
I am not sure what you mean by that. Can you explain that a little more?
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@Takamba said
"Instead of saying, "no, you're wrong!" I'm confident that you would go much further in being understood if you showed by example or some anecdote what you mean."
I think that when someone says 2+2 = 5 a reply of "no, it doesn't" is sufficient.
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@Labyrinthus said
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@Takamba said
"Instead of saying, "no, you're wrong!" I'm confident that you would go much further in being understood if you showed by example or some anecdote what you mean."I think that when someone says 2+2 = 5 a reply of "no, it doesn't" is sufficient."
I was, until now, beginning to believe you had an ear.
Good night, and good luck.
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@Labyrinthus said
"I am not sure what you mean by that. Can you explain that a little more?"
And in case you have any question why I am no longer listening back to you, I am adopting the unsympathetic attitude you are asking of us.
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@Takamba said
"I am adopting the unsympathetic attitude you are asking of us."
How am I asking that?
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"Those who pretend to be in sympathetic oneness with the Universal Being while projecting words from the human consciousness are playing a game that does not serve the Eternal Purpose, if you ask me."
I think this is a pretty damn good example right here of your condescension.
You act like your sign is the only one in the sky. But I will speak from my seat at the table. I will express myself as I will and behave as true to my own nature as I will. Did I ever claim a great title or grade?
"Of course I do. And mine is genuine. I actually live by my beliefs. I don't pretend to be helping others through some government agency or get vicarious satisfaction out of forcing others to behave philanthropically"
"The Masters are however deeply compassionate towards the plight of the ignorant masses of humanity.
They care little, however, for the phony do-gooders masquerading as philanthropists. These are simply petty tyrants who try to assuage their guilt complex by forcing others to behave in a manner consistent with their hopelessly ignorant viewpoint and clearly doomed intentions."
What? Are we supposed to act like your just making up these descriptions out of thin air? - as if their is no context? - no previous discussion and no players in it?
The casualness of your insults disgusts me. Yes, sir, I am a lowly pre-neophyte who can't be expected to say anything intelligent about the nature of reality. But one thing that Aleister Crowley has taught me is that even if I am the very black of blacks to your white of whites, I have a right to exist and a right to express myself as I will. Such is the nature of manifestation.
If there is anything else I've learned, it's that my stars have a meaning and play a role. And that table, my humble brother, is round. It is perfectly round. And you come in here claiming that, whatever my True Will may be, it certainly can't be the liberation of the oppressed, such thinking is merely the subject and perpetuation of manipulation.
So, I, sir, stand from my seat at the table at Sun in Libra, Moon in Pisces, and I accuse you of acting like your stars are the only ones in the sky. I stand as a Child of the Sun and accuse you of limiting my potential Will.
Can you understand it if I say it like that, oh my master?
Now either teach me something new about how liberation of the oppressed can never be an at least occasional function of reality, or shut your insulting pontification and learn something.
Frater Lusate Auton
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@Frater LA said
"I think this is a pretty damn good example right here of your condescension.
"It is a bad example. Read the question again.
So, another speaking confidently of his knowledge on an esoteric matter appears to be 'condescension' to you?Why would you choose to react that way?
@Frater LA said
"You act like your sign is the only one in the sky."
I speak confidently on my own experience. You have a problem with that? Your exaggeration is weakness and your needless put-downs speak for themselves. I had made no accusations towards you of this nature. What is your problem?
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You're smug.
There are myself and others here who are struggling forward trying to understand the most difficult concepts in existence - the end of the riddle - and you constantly make snide comments about your low expectations of us.
Now, you speak as if you understand True Will and as if you are apparently disappointed in our ability to embrace it without concern for others, who must liberate themselves from their impoverished state of consciousness.
You speak as if those who have given their lives and energies in service to others - to help other out of their impoverished state of consciousness - and to fight the entities that would keep them in their impoverished state of consciousness - just really didn't "get it," and you belittle them for it. Indeed, you belittle "us" for it. Instead, you say a person should follow their own Will, which is spoken of as if service to others could not be part of it. As you describe it, concern for others in this regard is all foolishness, guilt, and manipulation. You seem pretty damned certain of it - certain enough to be smug about it continuously in our faces.
So, I'm calling you out on it. Yes, you have the right to speak confidently from your personal experience. I'm hoping you will. Now reveal your big obvious answer that we are so ignorant for not perceiving. Teach me something new, or stop being smug and condescending without reason. Why can't a person's True Will involve service to others? Why can't it involve liberation of the oppressed? Or if it can, then who are you to judge another man's Will?
The members are many, but the body is One.
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@Frater LA said
"you constantly make snide comments about your low expectations of us."
Constantly...?...of who? ..wha? ... give three examples, please (that should be easy if it is constant, [though I doubt you can come up with a single one]).
@Frater LA said
"Instead, you say a person should follow their own Will, which is spoken of as if service to others could not be part of it."
Yes, following one's own will is good... but as for the rest of that -- I didn't say that. (not even close).
@Frater LA said
"As you describe it, concern for others in this regard is all foolishness, guilt, and manipulation."
No, I didn't. Not even close.
@Frater LA said
"Now reveal your big obvious answer that we are so ignorant for not perceiving."
big obvious answer?... what the?...? hhmmm You'll have to clarify that one for me.
@Frater LA said
"Why can't a person's True Will involve service to others?"
?! I didn't say it couldn't.
I ask you again. What is your problem?
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@Labyrinthus said
"
@Frater LA said
"you constantly make snide comments about your low expectations of us."Constantly...?...of who? ..wha? ... give three examples, please (that should be easy if it is constant, [though I doubt you can come up with a single one]).
"
There's one
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"Poverty is a state of consciousness. So is sickness, mastery, depression, and anything else you want to label. The question is, how do you raise consciousness to correct any imbalances - or, do you feel you should not?"
Back and forth
forth and backI feel like reading this thread has me on a teeter totter, or a swing.....
I was looking forward to this thread last week. My professional works deals with helping people facilitate change and shifting awareness. I just finished reading 4 pages of words here. While I appreciate what was attempted, and that the general tone stayed civil.....I feel that a very worthy issue in the world was not explored to it potential. But I have been told feelings are not facts, and so I am probably wrong.
Please feel free to jump all over me, and correct my misgivings. I love school, I am an eternal student.....
Compassion, sympathy, empthy are words in my book that mean that my energies, my feelings, my thoughts are going out to someone else, based on a perception I have. I have learned that it is best to keep my energies to myself, unless I am asked to share them, or if my kin is in need. Being that we are all kin, that could be a very fine line to dance upon....I have learned a lot about the term enabling, and co-dependency, and people with wounds, I think those terms have releavance to this topic.
I used to have a bumper skicker that said "do not meddle in the affiars of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
I have to come to understand that when I can completely change my perceptions (which happens on a biochemical level in my being- a complete shift in my awareness of what is real to me) my reality changes.
While it is commonly held that consciousness can only be changed by the individual, there are many schools of thought that teach us methods to help faciliate this shift. In fact I have been led to believe that Rite of Passage, and Initiation are developed to help an individual attain this shift in consciouness. The fact that most all of the human population do not undergo these important events seems to be missing most peoples perception. I do wonder though about the consciousness of the hypnotised person who think they are a chicken? Did the hypnotist change the consciousness? If so then the person who actually be a chicken, in all outward appearances. But what if the world was hypnotized to believe that the person was a chicken? What then of consciousness?
I dont know how many of you are parents, and have raised little ones. I studyied occult teaching for years before I gave birth, and that act brought about the biggest shift in my consciousness. Battling with a childs Will has humbled me in ways I never knew possible. Yet I had to, ego's aside, as a parent you have to dominate and force your child to do something they dont want. Women have been called the great manipulators for a reason. I have seen my mother in law ruin my husbands good mood with one well worded sentence, and when I call her on it and confront her- she is turns into the river in Egypt- De Nile, asserting that she didnt mean it "that" way.....
When I first started on my path, and attempted to Know Myself, I learned that the path to the soul lies through the heart. Finding that path though, from what I have seen is the challenge. Fear is the biggest road block to the heart, and helping people face thier fears is a challenge that many in the occult world are up to.
In my practice of holistic healthcare, trying to find the correct cataylst to facilitate a change in consciouness is a hit and miss game at best, or attempting to find a needle in a haystack. What brings about a shift in perception in one person is not what is needed/helpful (possibly even harmful) to another.
I have learned though that what is called the middle pillar, or a balance of strenght and mercy (or what ever opposites is called for in the particular) is often the best medicine.
Consciousness can be forced to change, even against the "apparent" will of the subject. Trauma, crisis, loss, pain, illness conspire to bring about these changes, and if one is skilled enough (like a Shaman, or therapist) the subject will change.
I do believe that is one of the wonderful reason my sex is so powerful, it brings us to the brink of death, and then back again. But then again I may just be biasised towards sex. I probably am......lucky for some.
I have been reading a few things about mind control, and mass hypnosis, and the lot......I am not convinced that this actually brings about a change in consciousness. I had read about using music and sound to bring about biological changes in organisms, about how to change brain wave patterns, and the like......it seems as if the technology for bringing about a change in consciousness is availible.
So then I am left wondering why it is not being done.
I dont think the statement "there are to many people" is a valid reason, I dont think the argument "it is to costly" is valid either.
I dont think the reason is that it is felt that humans need to do this on an individual basis is valid either.
I do want to know why the powers that be are not allowing thier energies (sympathy, empathy, compassion) to go out to the other emanations to lift them out of this sick, poor, unnurished consciouness.
Maybe I am way off base, maybe.
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@Takamba said
"There's one"
No, it isn't. Very funny...
Unbelievable the lack of any sense of honesty or fairness...
A man can't even refute a false accusation made against him without blatant distortion of his words being made.
Main Entry: snide
Pronunciation: \ˈsnīd
Function: adjective
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: circa 18591 a : false, counterfeit b : practicing deception : dishonest <a snide merchant>
2 : unworthy of esteem : low <a snide trick>
3 : slyly disparaging : insinuating <snide remarks>Takamba, my simple refutation of a false accusation does not fall into any of those three categories... your comment however fits '1.' quite well.
I am getting the distinct impression that some here in this forum community are clearly put off by a newbie who fails to grovel and make the expected prostrations for the proper duration of time.
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You're the common denominator in all your conflicts Labyrinthus.
(just like I am in all of mine)
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@Veronica said
"Consciousness can be forced to change, even against the "apparent" will of the subject. Trauma, crisis, loss, pain, illness conspire to bring about these changes, and if one is skilled enough (like a Shaman, or therapist) the subject will change. "
Good ideas, Veronica. Thanks.
But I am not sure a trauma induced change is what I would call a change of consciousness. It generates change in behavior according to the level of consciousness of the individual. Two people together in the back seat of a car in a bad accident can change in completely different ways. One simply changes his diapers and moves on while the other has nightmares and requires therapy. The difference in response reflects a difference in consciousness.
Yes, the technology to change behavior does exist, but this is what I would call 'programming' and does not 'raise consciousness'. It is as I said earlier, something about how a pigeon can be trained to unlock a safe by pecking in a coded sequence.
The Music idea is a fun one though. The Mozart effect.... Binaural beats.... but moving the brain from alpha to delta states or whatever... I do not see this as consciousness. What really surprises me though is how so many people willfully choose to listen to horrible, destructive noise at loud volumes when soft, constructive sound is readily available.
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Given:
@Labyrinthus said"The true Initiate works quietly on his own or with others of like mind and would never dream of telling others what problems need to be solved or how to behave in general."
@Labyrinthus said
"It only appears that way if your viewpoint is undisciplined or immature."
@Labyrinthus said
"Marxism, Communism and its Little Brother, Socialism are the spawn of Satan.
Those who have the slightest clue what the Freedom to "Do As Thou Wilt" is all about recognize that pure capitalism is the true playground of budding young Initiates."
@Labyrinthus said
"Those who have a better system will simply go out and do it. Total losers will try to impose their theory of a better system against the Thelemic Will of True Initiates"
These are the chief offenses in my mind.
Your mockery and disdain is simply another form of the same manipulation of which you accuse "us" - your political opponents and basically anyone who disagrees with you. I will not be made to feel guilty for the politics of "making other people feel guilty," when the crux of your argument is that "we" are guilty of crimes worthy of disdain by True Initiates if we don't agree with a True Initiate, have the understanding of a True Initiate, or behave as a True Initiate, which you apparently consider yourself, knowing their opinions intimitely as you do. Who is playing "insider/outsider" again, oh True Initiate? Is it "us"?
The entire time that you protest control, your characterization of your opponent as uninitiate is nothing but a manipulative form of control - an action bred from your own fear of control. I'm weary of it, and I resent it. I resent being made to play your shadow and take on all your venom and snide remarks toward the opposing viewpoint.
The One thing is Nothing until it manifests as opposites. The end.
Next week, the stars will be different, but on this day, I choose not to be spoken down to by a man who can't recognize his own shadow.
@Labyrinthus said
"I have not taken an oath to any organization thus far. Something about it strikes me as crossing the line in the 'control' department."
Labyrinthus, the True Initiate recognizes his own shadow and does not become the slave of it.
Is that the kind of thing you've been ready to fight if you hear?
Me too. How's it feel?
Notice that no one here plays the "True Initiate" card but you. Everyone else argues from scientific evidence or appeal to universal priniciple. I guess if you wanted "insider/outsider," then there it is. Can you deal with those kinds of "insider/outsider" rules? You'd think they'd be very agreeable to you. So far, you simply stand damned by your own judgment.
You are attempting to raise my consciousness through manipulation.
I will not be ruled ...either.
So, here we are to the point again: You are behaving smugly and making snide comments, and I am calling you out on it. Either teach me something new about how the nuturing, "mother" principle in the Universe is now banned from participation in the realms of politics and True Will, or stop talking down to me (one of several opponents) from your snide True-Initiate chair.
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@Frater LA said
"These are the chief offenses in my mind."
Is English your first language Frater LA? If not your apparent abuse of the language may be excused. There is nothing sly or underhanded about my statements concerning my understanding of the "True Initiate". I am direct and speak in a very straightforward manner. I think I have every right to speak about esoteric matters as I understand them and I have every right to offer my viewpoint of the characteristics of a True Initiate as I understand it. Unlike you, I do not direct disparaging remarks directly at another individual here. I speak about general principles and ideas.
If you suffer some sort of insecurity complex such that my comments are so disturbing to you, so be it. But I will not be moved to make excuses for my comments because you suffer misunderstanding so readily and take general commentary so personally.
I have recently been reading The Training and Work of an Initiate by Dion Fortune and so far it appears that there are at least two levels on which to read the term, Initiate. I may discover more.
@Frater LA said
"Your mockery and disdain is simply another form of the same manipulation of which you accuse "us""
I have mocked no one here and my disdain is for those who make coercive attempts to make me act against my will. And I have accused no collective "us"(you plural). Just more false accusations. There is a lot of that going around. You do have the option of specifying an exact quote and asking for further explanation if you wish to be more certain.
@Frater LA said
"Who is playing "insider/outsider" again, oh True Initiate? Is it "us"?"
Can you point out where I made such a claim? (Or are you sincerely applying the title to me... or is that sarcasm/anger?)
@Frater LA said
"your characterization of your opponent as uninitiate is nothing but a manipulative form of control - an action bred from your own fear of control. "
Again and again... I did NOT characterize anyone here as an 'uninitiate'. Just more false accusations. And to say, " action bred from your own fear of control"... hmmm... are you aware of what happens in your inner realm when you make firm allegations such as this?... especially when they are wrong?! You might want to do yourself a favor and back off a bit.
@Frater LA said
"Labyrinthus, the True Initiate recognizes his own shadow and does not become the slave of it.
Is that the kind of thing you've been ready to fight if you hear? "No. It isn't. My initial impulse is to ask for clarification as I have done more than once with you. Again, what are you talking about?
@Frater LA said
"Notice that no one here plays the "True Initiate" card but you. Everyone else argues from scientific evidence or appeal to universal priniciple."
I think the "True Initiate" concept is a fascinating one. You can argue from whatever else you like but if you don't mind I'll reserve my right to introduce whatever card I like, whenever I please. Why do you choose to be so offended by that?
@Frater LA said
"You are attempting to raise my consciousness through manipulation."
Heheh. Not hardly. ? manipulating what? How?
@Frater LA said
"Either teach me something new about how the nuturing, "mother" principle in the Universe is now banned from participation in the realms of politics and True Will, or stop talking down to me (one of several opponents) from your snide True-Initiate chair."
(where did I claim to be a True Initiate?... unbelievable stream of error and deception here). Wow. That's a rather demanding tone. For some reason I was under the impression that it would be okay for me to share my thoughts and opinions on the subjects that are brought up here. I really did not expect this level of insecurity and fearfulness of different viewpoints and so much misrepresentation and false accusations and such.
geez... you'd think I just ran over the family dog or something....