"A Thelemic Utopia"
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I had originally deleted this thread but on special request i've brought it back.
What is the ideal Thelemic Utopia?? and/or how would the pre-conditions unfold?
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Easy...!
But first, describe the ideal electronic device.
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@Frater LA said
"Easy...!
But first, describe the ideal electronic device."
Easy! on one level an "anti-gravity" machine; on another level a"Time-Machine" and/or "Teleportation device". A "Cybernetic Initiatory device" ultimately any device that could aid or promote "hyper-evolution"
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lol.... Nice...!
Thelema is all about how to accomplish True Will. It doesn't tell you what that Will should be. For me, the quest for a Thelemic utopia is kind of like saying, "What do you think a society's True Will should be?" And just as there are different individuals and different True Wills, I think nations have to discover their own.
The analogy:
Thelema is to Thelemic Utopia as Electronics is to the ideal electronic device.
So, from my perspective, you might as well drop the word "Thelemic" and just ask "What is your ideal utopia" and prepare for the myriad bellybutton and butthole answers. lol
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@_aLL_seEing_eYe_ said
"an "anti-gravity" machine; on another level a"Time-Machine" and/or "Teleportation device""
The anti-gravity idea always appealed to me while the time machine had special appeal to my big brother. The teleportation device is cool but that one is really just a hop, skip and a jump away from the HOLY GRAIL...
The Replicator.
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It seems to me the device you are describing all ready exists....
our heart.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bkQkzfEogk
My Favorite Dream
From "Fun and Fancy Free"
Composed by Bill Walsh and Ray NobleIn my favorite dream
Everyone is so delightful
No one's mean or spiteful
In my favorite dreamYes, and in my favorite dream
There my heart can go romancing
Dancing to a heavenly theme
But there's something else I look forward to
It's a secret, but here's a clue
He's my favorite you-know-who
You're the hero of my most favorite dreamIn his right vest pocket you'll find the key
The right vest pocket, go carefullyWhat would be my view of Utopia (specifally as related to Thelema, or Will)?
When I asked myself what would my version be, my mind brought to me the song "My Favorite Dream" as sung by the Harp, to the Giant to lull him to sleep so that Mickey could steal the Key out of his pocket and free his friends. (The Disney version Mickey and the Giant) In the original story of Jack and Beanstalk we are given a glimpse of a Great Mystery. It has even been likened to the Tree of Life. I have been told by a few Thelemites to think of my HGA as my Prince Charming, and in this song "you know who" eludes to the HGA.
And just what does lay in our right breast pocket, but the best (and first!) electronic devise ever.....our Heart.
biologyofkundalini.com/article.php?story=Electromagnetic
I love that song, it is so beautiful. When I sing the first stanzas of that song, I am stirred. My hearts beats faster, my being seems lighter and my mind slips away to just nothing, as I hang on every note. This song sets the stage for me, to allow myself to dream a bigger dream, and answer such a question as,
what would the world look like if you could make it your own?
Children, in schools across america are posed questions like this. I remember that I was anyways. My children have been tasked to "create there own islands and invent there own robots, and draw an animal that they would like." Children get to play with thoughts like this, but unfortunatly the teachers are not given ample time to really make the most of these excersizes. They have to fit into a tight schedule, in between lunch and math, or science and writting, these sort of playful activities. I want to pose these questions to my children, and let them have as much time as they want to explore them. I want them to be able to focus, for extended period of time on the question and not have to be concered that they have to be done and cleaned up by 2 o'clock. That is why I am taking my childrens education upon myself.
Regardless, I digress.......in my favorite dream
First of all, I love this world. I think it is just about as perfect as perfect could be- in theory. I love the physical, to feel, to smell, to taste, to see. I love perception, and all its angles. It is such a blessing to me to be able to expierence this world. The things in this world that I dont like, for example -waste, greed, violence, cold, and limits are all just perceptions of mine in the long run arent they. But they are my percetion, right or wrong and it is from perceptions that reality unfolds.
I dont like the fact that babies are raped, I dont like the fact that with a push of a button, bombs are dropped killing thousands, or more. I dont like the fact that the ancient forests are being cut down, or the rivers dammed, or the animals cruely slaughtered. But those are just my perctions saying these are not necessary and even evil. But if my heart didnt go out to the children of domestic abuse, or rape victims, then I would not be compelled to reach out and share and help, to give and serve and teach. If I didnt feel the pain when I see a slaughter house, then I would be able to wolf down double cheesburgers. If I didnt cry for the trees then I would be able to waste paper and water and not care about all the creatures who have no homes. In this world duality is necessary for our percetion of life. In fact I dont think you can have life with out this expierence.
There are some things though that I think should be done to help ourselves and our siblings, to improve upon this life we have here. As I have been taught inregards to fractuals, you go according (power word, a cord- having to do with sound) to a sequence, but you reach a pivotoal point and you either continue on the course you are headed, or you make a 180, and change your path. How does a head of brocoli know to stop making one floweret and start another, it reaches that point where it would be absurd if it continue. It knows it is time to stop. I think our evoloution is like that too, we reach a point where it would be absurd to continue.
In reality, based upon my perceptions, I do not like the fact that all mothers are not nurturing.
That, in my book, creates monsters who do wicked things. I dont want to digress into a nurture vs. nature discorse. I realize that people are not created equalily, (which IMO is a good thing). I do believe that nature bestows (through DNA) us with traits and abilities. I do not believe DNA dictates our intelligence though. Intelligence I have come to see is formed by nurturance, which starts at conception, and how the mother nurtures herself.In my perfect world Girls would be brought up to know that it is our role to nurish, shelter and serve mankind. I think that if all the girls in the world, from this day forth were properly instructed in those arts most all of the troubles of the world would fade away with in a few generation. It is our True Will, as far as I can see. I think that the problems of the world, all the ills of society are rooted in nurishment, or the lack there of.
One of the things I have learned quickly as a mom, is that it is almost impossible to make everyone in your family happy at the same time. You cant please everyone so the saying goes, so you have to make compromises, you have to discriminate, and you have to be able to recall the past and think to the furture. A good example is dinner time, everyone has a favorite dish and unless I plan on spending a fortune on food and most of my time in the kitchen someone is bound to end up with something on the plate that is not their favorite. So today I may make my husbands favorite, but tomorrow I'll make my sons, and then the next day my daughters, and so on. As long as I can keep track of it all.......Thank the Goddess I have Time and Space!
In my perfect world, we would be sun eaters, and live on prana alone.
That simple feat I think would eliminate just about all the major problems. No one would go hungry, no one would feel slighted, no life would be taken, no land plowed, and very very little waste produced.
I do think though that food is like sex, a wonderful pleasure and one that I would miss.
In the teachings of the Wolf, we are taught to feed our parents the best and first. The Alpha Male and Female feed first. There is a very good reason for that.
In my perfect world, our society would be like a wolf pack in many ways. Each member able to live out its Will, to be loved and valued, to love and value.Its good to Dream, to pretend, to expierement, and play.
But it is also good to Live, and to work.My world would be a harmony, a symphony, a dance.
as my beloved Mercer Meyer teaches
Let the wild rumpus start......
Where the wild things are.
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PM prompted elaboration...
I guess concretely, what I mean is if you wanted to justify a monarchy from Liber Legis, you could, using RHK. If you wanted to justify a two party democracy, you could, using Hadit and Nuit. If you wanted to justify capitalism, you could, using Hadit-like arguments. If you wanted to justify socialism, you could, using Nuit as a basis for argument. Perhaps I'm not aligning these forms of government entirely correctly, but I'm hoping it will be enough to give you the picture.
From my perspective, the Book of the Law describes Reality as it Is - not as it should be. It's the mechanics of Reality. If you wanted to view the book in terms of fundamental ethical perspectives, I think you'd have to say that it contains at least two distinct foundations: "My joy is my joy" and "Your joy is my joy." They are two distinct directions in the soul that can be travelled infinitely until you are either a raving narcissist or a will-less enabler... At least as I read it.
I've begun to think that regarding these political discussions, the question people keep bringing to Thelema to have answered is really the one thing they have to decide for themselves based on this moment, this location, these events, this history, this projected future...
I'll say it this way. I think Thelemic ethics are "situational ethics" that can only be understood individually on the level of Will and Love. I don't think there is such a thing as a collective Thelemic ethic in terms of the kind of thing needed to build a utopia. For example, as soon as you say "liberty!" then you run into the very practical concerns of one person's "liberty" ruining another's. As soon as you have thought it, you must decide whether you more value the liberty of the individual or the liberty of the collective - and you must convince everyone else of your decided proportions of individual versus collective liberty.
And then you end up where we already are.
Like I said. I think Liber Legis is descriptive of reality more than it is prescriptive.
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@_aLL_seEing_eYe_ said
"What is the ideal Thelemic Utopia??"
A world in which our planet was governed with the stewardship it deserves.
" and/or how would the pre-conditions unfold?"
War.
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Sometimes they fuck. Sometimes they fight.
Mom and Dad. Gotta love 'em.
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But these things are too great for me.
Let's see... I'm baking jalapeno bread for my father. He loves the stuff. That and a card is all he ever wants. I'm reflecting on Father's day, and I can't get the song "Let Us Break Bread Together On Our Knees" out of my head and heart.
And in the spirit of my previous post in another forum:
Let us break bread together on our knees, (on our knees)
Let us break bread together on our knees. (on our knees)
When I fall on my knees with my face to the rising sun,
O Lord, have mercy on me.Let us drink wine together on our knees, (on our knees)
Let us drink wine together on our knees. (on our knees)
When I fall on my knees with my face to the rising sun,
O Lord, have mercy on me.Let us praise God together on our knees, (on our knees)
Let us praise God together on our knees. (on our knees)
When I fall on my knees with my face to the rising sun,
O Lord, have mercy on me.Shalom.
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I search this land,
Put out my hand,
Look'n for that man,
Ho!
He won't shake my handThen?
Why, I am gonna kill him
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@Frater LA said
"...you must decide whether you more value the liberty of the individual or the liberty of the collective - and you must convince everyone else of your decided proportions of individual versus collective liberty."
I am real. The 'collective' is a concept. To me, considering the collective as being worthy of liberty is an abomination. How so many folks can value the collective but vilify the corporation is beyond me. So much hypocrisy. (And to reply that individuality is an illusion is about as meaningful as pointing out that time and space are illusions... when you reach the point where this is a reality for you let me know... in the meantime, the well adjusted 'individual' will deal objectively with reality).
When others band together and force me to behave according to the agreements of their collective it is tyranny.
Crowley's "The Right's of Man" reads like a Libertarian Manifesto.
I think Thelema can be said to outline a basic philosophy of individualism. It does not forbid Socialism but I think it does forbid coercion. And without coercion tyranny is dissolved. For those who wish to explore communal societies on a VOLUNTARY basis, fine. Go ahead. Good luck with that one...you're gonna need it.
When the government comes to me and takes my money to buy a thousand pounds of string beans for the idiotic school district lunch program so that some worse than useless moron bureaucrat can justify his ridiculous paycheck (which he stole from me) by pretending he is improving children's diet when everyone knows those beans go straight into the trashcan... it is not just tyranny but monumental stupidity. Socialism magnifies stupidity. It aids and abets failure.
One woman hearing my thoughts on this matter asked me, "why do you want children to go to bed hungry?!"
Just another misguided leap in broken Leftist logic.Just like when I point out the error in the whole Anthropogenic Global Warming nonsense. I was actually asked, (exact quote) "Why do republicans want to trash the environment"? Absurd. Why do we get this knee-jerk reaction of extremist characterization toward a differing viewpoint? It is very common. I think it is because Modern Liberalism is an inherently weak philosophical system based on anger, denial, fear and cowardice.
Now, I wonder. How many will pause a moment and ask for clarification of some point rather than simply go on the offensive? How many will ask a genuine and sincere question seeking simple clarity?... rather than obfuscation by asking something like, "when did you stop beating your dog?"
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I agree with every word you say, except this
"Those who band together and force me to behave according to the agreements of their collective is tyranny."
Is that so, True Initiate?
"To me, considering the collective as being worthy of liberty is an abomination. How so many folks can value the collective but vilify the corporation is beyond me. "
Shall we play again with your words? Have I not described a corporation to your soul?
One rule alone: Solve et Coagula
I have described the heart of my corporation, I call you before your stars to describe to me the heart of yours. If you can, you will give me something new to meditate upon. If you cannot, then silence yourself, and never speak of True Initiates or astrology again.
So be it.
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@Frater LA said
"I call you before your stars to describe to me the heart of yours. If you can, you will give me something new to meditate upon. If you cannot, then silence yourself, and never speak of True Initiates or astrology again.
"Wow. Tyranny seems to come natural to you. Who are you to tell me to never speak of anything again!? Seriously... by what authority would you even presume to have such power over me?
Besides... I mentioned neither astrology nor initiates in that post... what the frick are you talking about?
edit; And as far as corporations go, as I already said here, I think they need to have a 'death' clause similar to that of humans. They need to be liquidated after about 100 years. If they are to be afforded the right of individuals they need to be held to limitations natural to most individuals. Otherwise they can continue indefinitely and thus acquire and wield unnatural power.
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Sir, you cannot roller skate with buffalos, but you can be happy if you've a mind to.
Good day.
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@Labyrinthus said
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To me, considering the collective as being worthy of liberty is an abomination. How so many folks can value the collective but vilify the corporation is beyond me.
"A corporation is considered to be an entity individual and distinct from the collective that comprises its membership.
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Neighbor, can you help me understand?
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I dont like to butt into conversations.....
BUT...
just so you may possibly get some clarifacation
this issue of corporation, is what I had been asking about in my thread on the use of All Capitals in writing.
There is a very good legal reason why corporations and entities use Caps. I dont really want to stir the cauldron up but Brothers I do believe with every inch of my being that the ecomonic situation all over the world is a big game, and just like in the game monopoly we must pick a piece to represent us on the playing field. BUT that piece is not you, you are not a shoe, or a car, or even your name.
If I told you all that I wrote to Discover Bank 3 letters, and that they had to my account paid in full and closed....just because of those letters would you read a book?
They said I owed them 6 grand! and now I dont.Black's Law book ( a dictionary) is the book that rules this planet right now, and Uniform Commercial Code.
I implore you, and if I could in person kneel before you and give you the book by my friend Mary: Croft I would.
How I clobbered every cash confiscating agency known to man is availible on pdf all over the web, but her site spiritual economics now is a good place to start.
iritualeconomicsnow.neThere is a game being played, and you are probably playing it with out knowing it, and YOUR NAME is your playing piece. If you dont want to play with banksters then you have to take back your name.
I have been spending some time working on issues regarding fear, and the root chakra, issues of survival. I have just finished reading some remarkable working studying canibals, and cats. One tribe of canibals would have thier prey in captitivity, and then the prey had an "opportunity" to escape. (this was a contrived opportunitiy, planned by the tribe) the prey would then be hunted and stalked, basically scarred to the brink of unconsciousness. Then they would be caught, killed and eaten ASAP. The reason was, so the tribe stated was becuase FEAR makes them taste better.
Cat and mouse, same thing. the cat toys with the mouse for a period of time and them kills and eats it.
I recall in my holistic studies the articles I found by opponents to slaughter houses and factory farming, the animals killed in these practices are biologically, chemically diferent from animals kept and killed in tradtional farms.
I no longer interact daily with hundrends of people. But for most of my career in the public library and private colleges I did work with hundreds of people a day. I can tell you 9 times out of 10 when a person is living in survival mode (as I am sure many of you here can as well).
As Mr. Eshelman first stated "poverty is a state of consciousness" and I say that this state of consciousness is being purposly maintained to keep the mass population in a state of fear. I am not saying that we are going to be physically eaten, but possibly and I am not getting feedback on this....but possibly psychically some "people" "entities" "brotherhoods" what have you, are using this state of fear. I know it is a huge accusation, and I am always looking for evidence that I am wrong. I want more then anything to be wrong about this.
My Beloved AC taught me Love is the Law. I heard those words when I was in constant fear, when I though at any moment my life could be blinked out. Reading the Law helped move me out of this survival mode and allowed me to grow up, and out, and change and become and all that happy good stuff. I want my Brothers and Sisters to be lifted out of this fear. So I put myself out there, and I share what I have and I have helped many, but there are many many more who I cant help.
I dont like being in fear, I dont like thinking that I dont have enough money to buy organic food, or to upgrade my vehicle, or pay my morgage, or enroll my kids in swim class. To me that is such utter BS, for I know that there is no good reason hard working people should go with out basic needs being met.
4 years ago I thought that I was going to have to earn some money to support myself and my kids. I knew that I would not be able to reinstate my civil service status so I looked for options. Always being a health conscious person, and seeing how the "alternative" medicine feild was booming I enrolled to become a Board Certified Holistic Healthcare Practioner.
After 2 years of study I was ready for my testing, but was given one last book to read. I had just finsihed typing up my thesis, and found on my harddrive a pdf that I had down loaded 4 years before (from a site that was teaching Ishmael by Daniel Quinn). It was Mary: Crofts book. I read it and thought WTF this is serious stuff, but what am I supposed to do now. I then started reading my last book before certifaction. That book was called
_ Legal Guidlines for Unlicensed Practioners_.
It taught the same message that Mary did.
I have absolutely no desire to become board certified, or licensed I will give of myself and my understandings freely. I was then given a book about the Club of Rome, and a few other books that were not in my normal range of reading, but were gifted for unknow reasons in syncronistic situations.I know that I go on and on, and write to much. But this is coming from my heart to yours. I know that you all are beyond intelligent, caring and powerful people. This forum appears to have minds that are looking and are questioning, and minds that are awake.
I suppose I shall recieve a tounge lashing for my outragous accusations, but before you do, read Mary's book. I am in the process of having 30,000 debt to Chase noted paid in full because of her book. I will not be in fear of loosing my home, or my children. I do not want to play this game any more. I am taking my toys and going home so to speak.
I have much better things to with my time and energy then to have one iota of fear. I do not believe that falsly putting people in a state of fear is the most effective way to bring about change. IMO that assumes that they are not cabable of the truth, and that is a judgement and I dont like being judgemental.
I think that this world was one of the most beautiful emmanations, I think that the fear mongers, the banksters, the forces who control the energy flow (money is energy) are in trouble.
You can go ahead and whip me with a wet noodle now....
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@Uni_Verse said
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@Labyrinthus said
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To me, considering the collective as being worthy of liberty is an abomination. How so many folks can value the collective but vilify the corporation is beyond me.
"A corporation is considered to be an entity individual and distinct from the collective that comprises its membership."
Right. That is what I was talking about. Why? Why view the corp as distinct from the 'collective'? Because it is voluntary therefore it doesn't count?
Does the 'collective' only qualify as a collective when participation is mandatory?... "resistance is futile"?
My comment was in reply to another comment that referred to the "liberty" of a collective;
"...you must decide whether you more value the liberty of the individual or the liberty of the collective - and you must convince everyone else of your decided proportions of individual versus collective liberty."This is really scary. Of course the individual right supersedes that of the collective! I would have thought my original reply would be self explanatory. I'll explain further in this way;
The individual that enjoys Liberty may choose to sacrifice for the collective or he may not. Only in a warped and dark society is the sacrifice made mandatory. When good works are forced and coerced by civil laws the Good Karma that the Individual might earn is nullified. In coercive societies Spiritual Growth is impeded in a huge way. When tyrants force others to do "good" the expected benefits of the act are not accrued but reversed. That is a big part of why communism fails.
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@Veronica said
"As Mr. Eshelman first stated "poverty is a state of consciousness" and I say that this state of consciousness is being purposly maintained to keep the mass population in a state of fear."
Are you saying that consciousness is able to be 'maintained' by others?... that It can be controlled by external, worldly forces? Ohhh...that is one of the most hopeless and depressing ideas I've heard in a long time. (I also don't think it is true).
I think external conditions for the masses reflect the internal state of consciousness of the individuals that comprise that mass. "People get the government they deserve" sort of thing.
Consciousness can not be controlled or manipulated by outside forces. Outside forces and conditions reflect the inner state of consciousness. As above so below.
A Utopian society can not be imposed from outside machinations. A modern Utopia will naturally manifest when the consciousness of those individuals comprising that society rises to that level. When a sufficient percentage of the Souls in a community do the almost unimaginably difficult Work of raising their own state of Consciousness the spontaneous manifestations in the external reality will reflect that state.
Want, deprivation and especially things like Fear of those conditions are a state of consciousness.
I gave the example before of the Lotto winners. Those in a poverty state of consciousness and on the brink of bankruptcy can not be saved by a sudden external imposition of a million dollars in their bank account. Within a few years they are right back on the edge of bankruptcy again.
There are certain physical laws that will not change much with expansion of consciousness... Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter, objects appearing to fall at the rate of 32 ft/sec squared, etc.
Beyond a certain point Souls grow out of their Planet Earth clothes just stop coming back to this Testing Ground.