The Body of Light
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Hi Jim - thanks for those comments.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Remind me where that quote comes from, please. I'd like to see it in context."
It’s the same source cited by Takamba – Book 4, Part 3: MTP, Of the Powers of the Sphinx, p. 284.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Sure. It's good practice because you are forming an astral body in order to do it, i.e., you are molding astral substance into a particular shape just as you do when you form the Body of Light. Additionally, the ability to assume these at will is enormously useful when you are out prowling in the astral"
I am very intrigued by your description "molding astral substance into a particular shape just as you do when you form the Body of Light". Is molding astral substance into a shape different from the formation of the BoL? Also is the BoL another word for the Yetziratic shell that survives for a while after death?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Very easy to work with somebody on this in person; very hard otherwise. Perhaps this tip will help: Realize that you already are wearing a "god-form" in that you have a subconscious picture of yourself, your image, your act, how others see you etc. Rather than making up a new encompassing image, get conscious of the one you're already wearing and just change it."
If one is already wearing a god-form and need only “tune into” that fact, does that mean the BoL is latent within everyone and need only to be awakened? Or is the BoL something that must be "generated” and developed, gradually taking form, through these drills or various other practises? My question aims at ascertaining what happens to consciousness after death vis-a-vis developing a strong BoL versus not paying any attention to this aspect..
@Jim Eshelman said
"Again, this is something that's easy to work with someone on in person. Part of this is that the teaching is easier, but I think also a significant part is that the traditional way of accomplishing this involves impaction."
What do you mean by "impaction"?
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Some excerpts on the astral body/Body of Light:
You know what the expression “astral body” means. But the systems with which you are acquainted and which use this expression state that all men have an “astral body”. This is quite wrong. What may be called the “astral body” is obtained by means of fusion, that is, by means of terribly hard inner work and struggle. Man is not born with it. And only very few men acquire an “astral body”. If it is formed it may continue to live after the death of the physical body, and it may be born again in another physical body. This is “reincarnation”. If it is not re-born, then, in the course of time, it also dies; it is not immortal but it can live long after the death of the physical body.
G.I. Gurdjieff, In Search of the Miraculous, p. 32
T*he Thelemic theological system utilizes the divinities of various cultures and religions as personifications of specific divine, archetypal and cosmic forces. Thelemic doctrine holds that all the diverse religions of Humanity are grounded in universal truths; and the study of comparative religion is an important discipline for many Thelemites.
With respect to concepts of the individual soul, Thelema follows traditional Hermeticism in the doctrine that each person possesses a soul or "Body of Light" which is arranged in "layers" or "sheaths" surrounding the physical body. Each individual is also considered to have his or her own personal "Augoeides" or "Holy Guardian Angel"; which can be considered both as the "higher self" and as a separate, sentient, divine being. With respect to concepts of the afterlife, life itself is considered as a continuum, with death an integral part of the whole. Mortal life dies in order that mortal life may continue. The Augoeides, however, is immortal and not subject to life or death.
Parallel to Buddhist doctrine, the Body of Light is considered to be subject to metempsychosis, or reincarnation, after the death of the body. The Body of Light is generally considered to evolve in wisdom, consciousness and spiritual power through cycles of metempsychosis for those individuals who dedicate their lives to spiritual advancement; to the point that its fate after death may ultimately be determined by the Will of the individual.
*
oto-usa.org/theology.html -
@he atlas itch said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Sure. It's good practice because you are forming an astral body in order to do it, i.e., you are molding astral substance into a particular shape just as you do when you form the Body of Light. Additionally, the ability to assume these at will is enormously useful when you are out prowling in the astral"I am very intrigued by your description "molding astral substance into a particular shape just as you do when you form the Body of Light". Is molding astral substance into a shape different from the formation of the BoL? Also is the BoL another word for the Yetziratic shell that survives for a while after death?"
The World of Yetzirah is an actual world of substance; but the substance isn't physical substance, it's Yetziratic. Just as the physical body exists out of the same substance as the physical universe, and is able, therefore, to shape and adapt other physical substance, so are our psychological aspects (thought, emotion, ability to form or select images, &c.) part of Yetzirah, and able, therefore, to shape and adapt other Yetziratic substance.
The means of doing this is the power of imagination. Imagination is the act of using selection and concentration of mind to produce a specific shape in Yetzirah.
Any picture you have in your mind is a form existing in Yetzirah. To mold astral substance into a particular shape, imagine it - get it nice and solid. Yes, this is the main part of how the body of light is formed.
There are a few different layers of use for the term BoL. Sometimes it is treated as the intrinsic, already existing astral aspect of a person. Other times (and the way it seems best to apply to the practices being addressed here), it is something that doesn't pre-exist, but must be intentionally built. It's your chariot - much like a car - that you hop in and use to scoot around "the astral plane."
Yes, it's Yetziratic. It may or may not survive death - a constructed shell would ideally be withdrawn (reabsorbed) after its use.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Very easy to work with somebody on this in person; very hard otherwise. Perhaps this tip will help: Realize that you already are wearing a "god-form" in that you have a subconscious picture of yourself, your image, your act, how others see you etc. Rather than making up a new encompassing image, get conscious of the one you're already wearing and just change it."If one is already wearing a god-form and need only “tune into” that fact, does that mean the BoL is latent within everyone and need only to be awakened? Or is the BoL something that must be "generated” and developed, gradually taking form, through these drills or various other practises? "
See above. (Not exactly. See above.)
"My question aims at ascertaining what happens to consciousness after death vis-a-vis developing a strong BoL versus not paying any attention to this aspect.."
Regardless of the specific technique of formulating the Body of Light, there is also an innate astral aspect of us which marks physical death by severing its connection to the physical body.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Again, this is something that's easy to work with someone on in person. Part of this is that the teaching is easier, but I think also a significant part is that the traditional way of accomplishing this involves impaction."What do you mean by "impaction"?"
Impaction is the phenomenon when the mind and energy of a being with higher spiritual development impacts, and sets off development or capacities, in the mind and energy of a being with lesser spiritual development. It's kinda like a contract high of spiritual force. Consider a tuning fork and its ability to set strings vibrating if they are nearby and tuned to the same note.
So what I was saying is that a significant part of the traditional way of training for this is to have someone further along, who has this ability well developed and has opened to higher spiritual frequencies, walk you through it and, my right concentrated attention (usually, in this case, combined with instruction) trigger or ignite you into being able to do it.
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@he atlas itch said
"You know what the expression “astral body” means. But the systems with which you are acquainted and which use this expression state that all men have an “astral body”. This is quite wrong. What may be called the “astral body” is obtained by means of fusion, that is, by means of terribly hard inner work and struggle. Man is not born with it. And only very few men acquire an “astral body”. If it is formed it may continue to live after the death of the physical body, and it may be born again in another physical body. This is “reincarnation”. If it is not re-born, then, in the course of time, it also dies; it is not immortal but it can live long after the death of the physical body.
"Atlas, this Gurdjieff quote and your others are primo.
I remember reading this from decades ago. I did not understand it then and the movie based on this book butchered this scene badly and that didn't help a thing. In "Visions in the stone" E.J. Gold said something to the effect that he could travel to ancient monuments in his astral body and 'read' the imprints in them because he had done the work of 'coating' his astral body. I have since read the works of others who claim that all have some sort of a default astral body when born but that it disintegrates eventually after death unless they have done some incredible amount of work on it during the physical incarnation. Once that work is done it carries into future incarnations.
I see no reference to this sort of thing in Thelemic writings so far.
Does anyone know if there is an equivalent in the Thelema corpus?
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Hi Labyrinthus, glad you liked that Gurdjieff quote. His ideas on formation of the astral body seem to have been taken from Babylon. Normally I don’t like quoting long passages, but the following passage from J.G. Bennett is fascinating:
*But there are certain much more serious reasons for supposing that there was in North-West Persia at that time – perhaps still is today – knowledge that contributed toward Gurdjieff’s own development. This knowledge is chiefly concerned with the transformation of energies. I am assuming that you would not have come here to hear these lectures unless you were already students of Gurdjieff’s ideas and have read his books and the books about him, so I am not going to trouble to explain the teachings and ideas of Gurdjieff, but try to show you how it is possible in some way to follow his method of giving hints so that one can find one’s way back to his sources. If so, you must know that a very central feature, or theme, of Gurdjieff’s teaching and methods is that man is destined, or required, during his life on earth, to transform energies. One way of looking to see the reason of man’s existence on the earth, is that he is able to produce, by his way of living, certain substances required for very high purposes. Man, through his fulfilling this task, receives in return an imperishable something for himself. In other words, that there is the task of man transforming energies by the way he lives his life. That transformation, in some way or another, results in a division into three parts: one part of the energy has to be used up in performing the work that is needed; a second part of the energy goes to a particular purpose, where it is required; but the third part is his own reward, and enters into his own being and serves for the formation of his own vessel, or his own soul.
Now this goes back into the past – I think that this doctrine was held by the Chaldeans up to the time of the destruction of Babylon, and probably after that remained with the Eastern Christians about which I was talking to you – this required that there should be some knowledge of the sort of work, of the way of living, that makes it possible for man to fulfill this task. It is rather interesting, I think, to note that this is most specifically and clearly understood among the Christians of the old Tradition of the Near East. It is also understood by the Orthodox Christians but less understood by the Western Christians. For example, the Eastern Fathers, and particularly I think, the Russians, understood very clearly that there is something that is required of man of this kind, and they associated it with the idea of, that is, in order to participate in the Resurrection, a man has to acquire a Resurrection Body. Of course St. Paul teaches this in his epistles – but this notion of the need to acquire for oneself a Resurrection Body in order to participate in the Resurrection was, I think, most strongly and clearly perceived, in the Eastern Christian world. And of course, this agrees with the interpretation given by Eastern Christians of the Parable of the Wedding Garment; that there are two elements in salvation: there is the gratuitous acceptance of man through his Redemption whereby he is enable to participate in the Feast with the Wedding Garment, but there is also the requirement that is placed upon man himself, that he should come to the Feast with the Wedding Garment, which is interpreted as meaning the Resurrection Body. And that Resurrection Body is associated with the idea of the transformation of the fine spiritual substances that are exempt from the destructive forces of this earthly existence, and therefore able to participate in Resurrection.
This, I am sure, is somehow connected with the knowledge that is possessed by the Ahl-i-Haqq of whom I have spoken. It seems that they know the ways by which these energy transformations are brought about; that is, by which man is able, by his own way of living – which of course can take the outward forms of prayer and meditation but in reality consist in bringing about within himself a certain interaction of substances – whereby he fulfills his own particular task. All of you who have read Gurdjieff’s writings will recognize that this is a central theme. He refers to it as the Reciprocal Maintenance Of Everything That Exists. According to this principle everything that exists is required to contribute toward the existence of everything else. There is a close and intimate interlocking of all lives and all forms of live, by which each one is required to do something for every other. What has to be done in this way depends upon the transformation of energy. My own guess is that this is something that Gurdjieff learnt through contacts made in the parts of the Middle East that for millennia have been called Iran. Hence also his deep interest in Babylon. Nobody can read what Gurdjieff writes about Babylon without seeing how deeply it impressed him. *
(Gurdjieff: A Very Great Enigma, pp. 37 – 40; underline mine)
Bennett goes on to suggest that the Babylonians had understanding of these substances and energies and knew how to form astral bodies: “This work was carried on in certain areas of Babylon, and it left behind almost imperishable traces of that particular work. This makes it possible for people, even today, to re-enter into contact with what was going on 2500 or 3000 years ago. In a sense it is still going on today.”
For me, the underlined passages suggest the development of the astral body/Body of Light is closely connected with, or perhaps a result of, doing one’s True Will.
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"I am very intrigued by your description "molding astral substance into a particular shape just as you do when you form the Body of Light". Is molding astral substance into a shape different from the formation of the BoL? "
As Israel Regardie put it. Your astral body is very receptive to your thoughts. So imagining for instance being the god pan, how he looks, how he sits, and what not, your astral body or BOL will shape itself to that thought, so while your sitting there meditating, on the astral, your BOL will be what you imagine it to be. I have read alot of variations on the BOL shaping it, adding armour, whatever your want to imagine on it realy, or you could be a bird
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As to the second question, molding it into a shape is just a excercise and technique for astral travel, to whatever, or to communicate with dietie's, with in a sense put xp points to the formation of your BOL The 'formation of the BOL', as you put it, can be made of of any collective practices that personally fit you, that all point toward astral work, and aura work, god-forms, ect... Forming the BOL is forming it, how you do it is up to you."If one is already wearing a god-form and need only “tune into” that fact, does that mean the BoL is latent within everyone and need only to be awakened? Or is the BoL something that must be "generated” and developed, gradually taking form, through these drills or various other practises? .."
When you say ' if one is already wearing a god - form', that is the simplest of them, it is how we see, think, and feel about our self in RL. It is the image in our subconcious we hold representing at the current time 'you'. It is very easy to change that, my favorite technique is relax, and imagine who you want to be(qualities and elements, not like a super star:D) and fill that imgage with light, connect with it, see yourself where you want to be ect... whatever you choose to do from that point is up to you.
A realy good example of god forms is masks, how the ancients, Native Americans, Egyption Gods, whore and well some permanantly haveing them, masks. Dressing up, looking like a diety, smelling, eating like one, whatever you could do to be it. Kinda like dressing up as your favorite charcter for holloween, except you would meditate on it, and let your mind be filled with the thought of being that diety or whatever. Anyways the ancients dressed up to communicate with the divine, so to speak. So if you have a diety in mind, use it, become it. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"Any picture you have in your mind is a form existing in Yetzirah. To mold astral substance into a particular shape, imagine it - get it nice and solid. Yes, this is the main part of how the body of light is formed.
There are a few different layers of use for the term BoL. Sometimes it is treated as the intrinsic, already existing astral aspect of a person. Other times (and the way it seems best to apply to the practices being addressed here), it is something that doesn't pre-exist, but must be intentionally built. It's your chariot - much like a car - that you hop in and use to scoot around "the astral plane." "
This is ironic , i recently came to the conclusion that "a car " would actually be almost an ideal form for "astral travel" not least because it can closely approximate 360 degree vision considering a certain arrangement of rear-view mirrors and an open roof, is there a limit to how much "astral substance" is available for the Magician to use??
"Yes, it's Yetziratic. It may or may not survive death - a constructed shell would ideally be withdrawn (reabsorbed) after its use."
I suppose this would apply in my above example, if so how would the magician go about the reintegration process??
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@_aLL_seEIng_eYe_ said
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"Yes, it's Yetziratic. It may or may not survive death - a constructed shell would ideally be withdrawn (reabsorbed) after its use."I suppose this would apply in my above example, if so how would the magician go about the reintegration process??"
Basically, referse the process by which it was exuded in forming the Body in the first place.
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@he atlas itch said
"All of you who have read Gurdjieff’s writings will recognize that this is a central theme. He refers to it as the Reciprocal Maintenance Of Everything That Exists. According to this principle everything that exists is required to contribute toward the existence of everything else. There is a close and intimate interlocking of all lives and all forms of live, by which each one is required to do something for every other. What has to be done in this way depends upon the transformation of energy."
Yes,Atlas. I own a copy of that book/pamphlett.
When I read it, it reminded me of the "Law of Conservation of Mass", that I learned in Physics class.
Yet I look back at his method and it appears to be just as big a failure as all the others. Not only does Humanity remain completely ignorant but none of his students really amounted to much more than a hill o' beans... did they?
?
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@Labyrinthus said
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@he atlas itch said
"All of you who have read Gurdjieff’s writings will recognize that this is a central theme. He refers to it as the Reciprocal Maintenance Of Everything That Exists. According to this principle everything that exists is required to contribute toward the existence of everything else. There is a close and intimate interlocking of all lives and all forms of live, by which each one is required to do something for every other. What has to be done in this way depends upon the transformation of energy."Yes,Atlas. I own a copy of that book/pamphlett.
When I read it, it reminded me of the "Law of Conservation of Mass", that I learned in Physics class.
Yet I look back at his method and it appears to be just as big a failure as all the others. Not only does Humanity remain completely ignorant but none of his students really amounted to much more than a hill o' beans... did they?
?"
The above example is one of the many forms of expression used by the character called Labyrinthus that shows a tendency to incite rather than a tendency toward insight. He demeans whatever is being talked about through an effort to diminish it with belittling words and tones. Here he has called "the writings of Gurdjieff" a mere book/pamphlet - yet we who have first hand knowledge of such things have first hand knowledge that these things are more than one mere book/pamphlet.
[thus, the jury should now conclude that this character who calls himself Labyrinthus has not in fact made himself familiar with the work of Gurdjieff while wanting us to believe he or she has]
Furthermore, Labyrinthus continues his dismissive methods by stating his opinion about the character known as Gurdjieff (including all of Gurdjieff's followers) in such a way that we must insist he is expert if we are to believe his tone. He knows when a human is a failure and not a failure. Also, he knows who exactly Gurdjieff's followers are and who are not (yet never considers to contrast them with others such as the followers of Christ or the followers of Freud or the followers of L. Ron Hubbard or perhaps even the followers of Newton).
Finally, Labyrinthus escalates his form of assault on the thread (and on this website) with a derogatory conclusion concerning a hill o' beans.
Labyrtinthus is entitled to his opinions. That's my opinion. Labyrinthus is not entitled to the privilege of being a bully and I suspect I am seeing the signs of a bully becoming. I have witnessed Labyrinthus question the group here about why it is perceived that his method is one of poor communication, so i thought I would pause the conversation for a second to demonstrate first hand and in the moment why Labyrinthus is not making many friends in this playground.
I hope that this small interruption in your fun has shown both the general population and Labyrinthus something useful in answer to this question about why "Lab" grows more unpopular by the day. I am offering no solutions or recommendations other than whatever comes from this brief observation on its own. I am not speaking to anyone directly on this matter at this or any other time - especially Labyrinthus with whom I find reasonable discourse not possible.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussions
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Basically, reverse the process by which it was exuded in forming the Body in the first place."
As I understand it, the "substance" of the astral allows Tibetan lamas to create tulpas and then reabsorb them back into themselves:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TulpaBtw the following sounds remarkably similar to Jim's description of impaction:
The mindstream communion affected by the wife of Marpa in the abovementioned quotation, is an ancient mode of 'mind transmission' (Tibetan: dgongs brgyud) or 'empowerment' (Tibetan: dbang bskur) in the Himalayan traditions, documented in the folklore and anthropological studies of Himalayan and Siberian Shamanism. The Russian Psychiatrist Olga Kharitidi published her direct experience of this phenomenon in the Altay Mountains, where a shaman merged a stream of his consciousness continuum or 'spirit' with hers.
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@Takamba said
"Here he has called "the writings of Gurdjieff" a mere book/pamphlet "
That is not what I said. That is very dishonest, Takamba. Why the long attack on me personally? Because you do not like my viewpoint? What is your problem?
I referred to an 87 page booklet as small. You gotta problem with that?
@Takamba said
"his dismissive methods by stating his opinion about the character known as Gurdjieff (including all of Gurdjieff's followers) in such a way that we must insist he is expert if we are to believe his tone."
No Takamba... your angry complaint merely continues... I asked a question because I am sincerely interested if anyone has an opinion on the matter. Exactly what in my tone implied expertise? Be specific or be revealed as a low down, abusive, surly little forum punk with an axe to grind. Your little diatribe says a whole lot more about you than it does me.
I think Gurdjieff accomplished very little in the way of an 'enlightenment' School. The Fourth Way is basically dead. I am not aware an any Teachers in that lineage who are successful in building a method useful in lifting up the consciousness among their followers. If you know of any please feel free to suggest them. Otherwise your little tantrum is not much more than a purely destructive personal attack on me simply because you do not like my opinion of Gurdjieff?! (or my politics, or my failure to bow low enough before the local nobility....)
@Takamba said
"Finally, Labyrinthus escalates his form of assault on the thread (and on this website) with a derogatory conclusion concerning a hill o' beans."
This ambiguous complaint means nothing. I think Gurdjieff's long term results do not amount to much. I have clarified that. For you to go on such a long rant over a simple opinion about a dead writer/philosopher who is wholly disconnected from this Forum seems senseless.
Look at your post, Takamba.
And you dare to call me a bully!
What a joke.
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"I am not aware an any Teachers in that lineage who are successful in building a method useful in lifting up the consciousness among their followers. If you know of any please feel free to suggest them."
I recently found a successful group here in Upstate NY......(many thanks for the sugestions to look into him from this board).
Upstate NY is rich in history (and presently) in actions that work towards lifting consciousness.....
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@Veronica said
"I recently found a successful group here in Upstate NY......(many thanks for the sugestions to look into him from this board)."
Yes, I know that there are Fourth Way groups still out there. But by 'success' I did not mean just ongoing groups that meet and read a few paragraphs from a book and talk about it.
I said, "I am not aware (of) any Teachers in that lineage who are** successful in building a method useful in lifting up the consciousness among their followers**."
There is an important distinction made there.
I think the Gurdjieff work makes for very interesting reading. I have many books by him and his followers. There is some useful perspective and info there but I am looking for results in the way of aspirants actually reaching a point where they can move consciously beyond the realms of duality.
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@Labyrinthus said
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@Veronica said
"I recently found a successful group here in Upstate NY......(many thanks for the sugestions to look into him from this board)."Yes, I know that there are Fourth Way groups still out there. But by 'success' I did not mean just ongoing groups that meet and read a few paragraphs from a book and talk about it.
I said, "I am not aware (of) any Teachers in that lineage who are** successful in building a method useful in lifting up the consciousness among their followers**."
There is an important distinction made there.
I think the Gurdjieff work makes for very interesting reading. I have many books by him and his followers. There is some useful perspective and info there but I am looking for results in the way of aspirants actually reaching a point where they can move consciously beyond the realms of duality."
I found a group in NY that has done that. I understand your distictintion, if I hadnt thought this qualified for what you were specifically saying I would not have said so.
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@Veronica said
"I found a group in NY that has done that. I understand your distictintion, if I hadnt thought this qualified for what you were specifically saying I would not have said so."
If so, I would like to know more. Can you provide more detail?
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www.rochestergurdjieffcenter.org/Pages/RGCWelcome.ph
It appears as if the page hasnt been updated in a while, I looked into it myself a few months ago and was pleasently suprised. My friends who are philospohy teachers at RIT vetted for the center as well.
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@he atlas itch said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Basically, reverse the process by which it was exuded in forming the Body in the first place."As I understand it, the "substance" of the astral allows Tibetan lamas to create tulpas and then reabsorb them back into themselves:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa"
very interesting information, Atlas. Thanks.