Magick without meditation
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I was examining my daily discipline of magick and thought that I could save some time by cutting out the meditation part.
I've known a couple of Chaos Magickians and a few LHP people who had great disdain for any practice of meditation
by those who follow the magickal path. They seemed to share the opinion that meditation is not necessary to be a successful initiate.Can we practice magick without incorporating a meditation or concentration exercise into our daily work?
Any thoughts on this?
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Don't let me interfere with your life lessons. So if you want to try, be my guest.
I would point out that depriving yourself of a very useful tool, in the name of saving time, is pretty silly.
Yoga (including meditation) is an exercise routine that helps you grow the skills needed for union. If you already have that skill, or learn it through another method, then you don't need yoga. But without the ability to create and maintain that "union", you can't have knowledge and conversation.
"Once upon a time, there was a man and a boy, who had to deliver some important papers to a certain city one day. They had to cross some water, and while being ferried across, they asked the ferryman if he thought they could make it to the city before sunset, when the city gates were closed. The ferryman replied that they could, but only if they walked.
When they reached the shore, they saw the sun was getting low on the horizon. Surely they could not make it in time if they walked. So they ran. And tripped, spilling the papers. The delay cost them precious time, and they arrived just after sunset, and the gates were already closed."
We each will take as many incarnations as we need to get stuff right. (I blew my last incarnation, trying to take a shortcut to happiness). In the end, I would say: you can build a temple out of your existence, to create a place for HGA. This is the most important thing in your life, the only thing that's real. Are you going to skimp on the foundation?
(This is all completely separate from discussions of how far a person could progress with such-and-such limitation.)
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Don't let me interfere with your life lessons. So if you want to try, be my guest.
I would point out that depriving yourself of a very useful tool, in the name of saving time, is pretty silly.
Yoga (including meditation) is an exercise routine that helps you grow the skills needed for union. If you already have that skill, or learn it through another method, then you don't need yoga. But without the ability to create and maintain that "union", you can't have knowledge and conversation.
"Once upon a time, there was a man and a boy, who had to deliver some important papers to a certain city one day. They had to cross some water, and while being ferried across, they asked the ferryman if he thought they could make it to the city before sunset, when the city gates were closed. The ferryman replied that they could, but only if they walked.
When they reached the shore, they saw the sun was getting low on the horizon. Surely they could not make it in time if they walked. So they ran. And tripped, spilling the papers. The delay cost them precious time, and they arrived just after sunset, and the gates were already closed."
We each will take as many incarnations as we need to get stuff right. (I blew my last incarnation, trying to take a shortcut to happiness). In the end, I would say: you can build a temple out of your existence, to create a place for HGA. This is the most important thing in your life, the only thing that's real. Are you going to skimp on the foundation?
(This is all completely separate from discussions of how far a person could progress with such-and-such limitation.)"
how long did it take you to have k&c of hga?... after leaving jw not too long ago, you seem to have progressed pretty quickly, since you are certain of past lives, etc.
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I agree with the perspective that you'd be cutting yourself off from an important resource.
Possibly Crowley's single greatest breakthrough contribution (other than that "prophet of an aeon" thing) was his wedding of yoga with magick. That, with ongoing objective assessment of results, probably sums up his greatest practical contributon.
Meditation teaches control of your mind. Without careful control of your mind, the most fortunate outcome is that much of magick doesn't work very well. (I call that fortunate because it would be far worse for you if you had an undisciplined mind and your magick actually worked!)
Meditation gives one actual access to other planes of consciousness as you learn the navigate the streams and flows of your mind.
And, ultimately, the personal growth results most people seek are results in meditation. The magick empowers it and creates the context, but thresholds such as K&C of the HGA and crossing the Abyss generally occur within the context of what one can only honestly call meditation.
EDIT: Nearly always, people who preach magick without meditation either are not pursuing significantly altered states of consciousness, or they're pursuing them with artificial means such as drugs. Although some drugs can be a useful way to get first exposure to some of these states, they don't stabilize you in the altered state over the long-run. (Well, yeah, enough drugs will alter you permanently! Not the way you want, though. <g>)
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Redd Fezz, I don't claim K&C. I expect it's going to take me quite a bit of work to get there. But this is really OT.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Don't let me interfere with your life lessons. So if you want to try, be my guest.
I would point out that depriving yourself of a very useful tool, in the name of saving time, is pretty silly.
Yoga (including meditation) is an exercise routine that helps you grow the skills needed for union. If you already have that skill, or learn it through another method, then you don't need yoga. But without the ability to create and maintain that "union", you can't have knowledge and conversation.
"Once upon a time, there was a man and a boy, who had to deliver some important papers to a certain city one day. They had to cross some water, and while being ferried across, they asked the ferryman if he thought they could make it to the city before sunset, when the city gates were closed. The ferryman replied that they could, but only if they walked.
When they reached the shore, they saw the sun was getting low on the horizon. Surely they could not make it in time if they walked. So they ran. And tripped, spilling the papers. The delay cost them precious time, and they arrived just after sunset, and the gates were already closed."
We each will take as many incarnations as we need to get stuff right. (I blew my last incarnation, trying to take a shortcut to happiness). In the end, I would say: you can build a temple out of your existence, to create a place for HGA. This is the most important thing in your life, the only thing that's real. Are you going to skimp on the foundation?
(This is all completely separate from discussions of how far a person could progress with such-and-such limitation.)"
I see your point. I did slack on my meditation for a couple of days and my bornless invocations and other rituals seemed lacking in power. I'm back on my meditations.
I've known a couple of persons who were on the LHP who said they achieved K&C of the HGA with the Bornless Ritual without meditation. I also know a chaos magician who says she is RHP, but I think she is really LHP, and she claims she also got K&C without any meditating or yoga stuff. I know they could have been lying but I these are people I knew before and after they say they got K&C and they were totally transformed.
One of them is a hairstylist so maybe he achieves some kind of high powered focus from cutting hair. I don't know. I haven't talked to any in years so I cant ask them new questions now.
I agree with you but I'm just noticing there seem to be people who don't meditate that claim K&C. Just find it curious.. could it be possible?-Larry
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I agree with the perspective that you'd be cutting yourself off from an important resource.
Possibly Crowley's single greatest breakthrough contribution (other than that "prophet of an aeon" thing) was his wedding of yoga with magick. That, with ongoing objective assessment of results, probably sums up his greatest practical contributon.
Meditation teaches control of your mind. Without careful control of your mind, the most fortunate outcome is that much of magick doesn't work very well. (I call that fortunate because it would be far worse for you if you had an undisciplined mind and your magick actually worked!)
Meditation gives one actual access to other planes of consciousness as you learn the navigate the streams and flows of your mind.
And, ultimately, the personal growth results most people seek are results in meditation. The magick empowers it and creates the context, but thresholds such as K&C of the HGA and crossing the Abyss generally occur within the context of what one can only honestly call meditation.
EDIT: Nearly always, people who preach magick without meditation either are not pursuing significantly altered states of consciousness, or they're pursuing them with artificial means such as drugs. Although some drugs can be a useful way to get first exposure to some of these states, they don't stabilize you in the altered state over the long-run. (Well, yeah, enough drugs will alter you permanently! Not the way you want, though. <g>)"
Jim, thanks for your sharing your insight. I agree with what you are saying. How about all those LHP stuff, like described in Don Webb's Seven Faces of Darkness and Steven Flower's Hermetic Magic? They both include different styles of the bornless ritual and advice on how to proceed with it and there is zero mention of any yoga. I don't know if you've seen these books, but they prescribe the bornless<headless> ritual without any recourse to yoga.
How come?
Instead of offering some yoga or meditation, they write that success with low magick is the prerequisite for success with the Bornless Ritual. The implication is that K&C can be achieved without yoga .
I may be interpreting this all wrong.
-Larry -
@Mahanta70 said
"How about all those LHP stuff, like described in Don Webb's Seven Faces of Darkness and Steven Flower's Hermetic Magic?"
I really don't take them seriously (for the most part). When they try to make their point, they seem to miss the point. Speaking generally (and not about any particular person or product), I find nothing of value in anything I've seen from them.
"How come?"
You'd have to ask them. I have suspicions, but not really enough personal knowledge of the individuals to substantiate them.
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You may find some good information in this article: magicoftheordinary.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/golden-dawn-blogs-and-tradition
And I'm curious what others might think of it as well. I've never had K&C of HGA, but I've been wondering for a few years now if it is the same thing as rigpa. It seems like it should be akin to discovering your "inner guru."
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Skimping on the meditation aspect will definitely hinder your growth. The meditation helps channel your focus from a million things going on in your daily life down to the single task at hand. It calms your body and mind and helps to prepare you for any rituals you plan on engaging in. Meditation before magick is like the warm-up before the run. Hope this helps.