Question about De Via Properia Feminis
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Well show me these records.
Show me where a controlled experiment has proved statistically significant data to support the hypothesis that it is possible to project one's awareness such as to accurately describe events that are not disclosed to the senses of the body.The Rhine institute has been trying to acquire such data for about 100 years now, and so far they have come up empty, accept some questionable results with "micro-kenisis" which again has to do with Quantum events, which we still don't have a complete model to explain the mathematics, so we really don't know what is going on with Quantum stuff.
The brain is an organ, changes in the brain are all that you know. Color is merely a brain event, semantic meaning is a brain state, including the name and identity of objects. It is the brain that pulls one object out of the continuous flow of potential data and allows you to experience the relation between this object and that, rather than one continuous sea of "noise". Every Emotion is just brain changes, every size, shape, color, smell, taste, sound, idea, is nothing but brain changes, your notion of what a brain is, is just brain changes. ALL you are and all you know is the map impressed into your brain matter.
But however, ALL THAT IS, is not what is known to you and YOU are not all that exists. Your brain is but one brain in the company of brains, in a universe full of other things, of things that exist totally independent to YOU and your awareness of them, things which bump you and induce changes in your brain (those changes are your whole micro-cosm, they are the Macro-cosm which you are aware of.)
Malkuth is merely the vibrations in the unity of Kether, but in the wast sea of Ayn-Soph there are inumerious Kethers, each with it's own internal malkuth, each Kether is Hadit. A star in the sea of Nuit, and each Hadit the seed of an entire Cosmos of illusion, a mere imperfect map of other stars and other non-star aspects of Nuit, which can only map the interaction the relations between itself and the other things which bump into it. Likewise it can only know itself by purposely interacting with other aspects of Nuit and collecting experiences that can be scientifically choses and used to build a model of it self. (This is the process of attaining the HGA)
There is however no force by which one can see events other than by use of the Eyes which are limited by location in space time, like wise to hear a tone one must be spatially located where the sound vibrations can touch the ear drum. If I am in Illinois, I can not hear the whispers of men in China, no matter where I have deluded my mind to thing it is astrally projected to.
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"But however, ALL THAT IS, is not what is known to you and YOU are not all that exists. Your brain is but one brain in the company of brains, in a universe full of other things, of things that exist totally independent to YOU and your awareness of them, things which bump you and induce changes in your brain (those changes are your whole micro-cosm, they are the Macro-cosm which you are aware of.)"
Perhaps Froclown forgets that the entire purpose of Magick is to unite the Macrocosm with the Microcosm.
Thereby does man overcome limitations of the sort you (eloquently) describe.
"Well show me these records."
Simply put, it is not in my authority to reveal them to the profane. And even if it were, I have little desire to show such things around for the sake of winning menial arguments.
I can, however, attest to a number of circumstances wherein I obtained certain knowledge independent of my five senses.
Unfortunately, the only proof I have is the success of the endeavors involved--and this is the only proof I myself will really require.You show a profound theoretical knowledge of Thelema, Sir Froclown--yet this is only the Masculine side of Magick, and we are dealing here with the Feminine.
This isn't to denigrate the Scientific Method, but there are problems that call for a little Mother-wit as well.
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There is the micro-cosm of the emotions and the imagination, the working of the mind on memories.
Then there is the Macro-cosm which is the phenomena of the micro-cosm devising a map or projection of sensory data, which naive realism considers the REAL world or the real Macro-cosm.Magic unites the projection of the inner with the projection of the outer. But the REAL Macro-cosm the actual objective reality is not known or knowable or experienced directly in any way, it can only be approximated by the asymptote of reason applied to scientific data, and gleaned or intuited by abduction. More data gets one closer and closer, but it can never be attained.
The thing in itself is not ever known, it is both self and other, but it is not either of these. It is beyond duality, it is not Chaos nor Cosmos 0=2.
It is what is in and of itself, devoid of all human knowledge. We only know pictures in our brains. We are as artists we can only see the paint and never the object that is painted. We have 3 colors of paint and their combinations, our three paints can not capture the infinite base colors that exist.
We have 3 primary colors Red, yellow and Blue. Be cause we have 3 types of color sensing nerves in our eyes. Dogs only have 2 colors they can see, thus they can see less total combined colors. Birds have 4 types of color detection cells in their eyes, birds can see vastly more colors than we can. But the thing itself exists as it is, irregardless of who or what is looking at it. even if nothing sees the apple at all, it still exists in the same way. Thus because it look grayish to a dog, Red to a man and something we have no words for to a bird does not change the fact of the apple, Those 3 apples are all nothing but events, electrical pluses in the brains of the animals than observe the apple. The APPLE is not in their brains, and though each of them is effected by the apple, the man the dog and the bird see different paintings of the apple, each painted with it's own set of paints available in it's nervous system. And not one of the 3 sees the apple itself as it is, in the real world made of not of the nervous system's paints, but out of the stuff of apples.
Color, smell, flavor, texture, size, shape, semantic shades, etc are all just the paints that exist innately in the human brain, and all that we ever can experience is merely different combinations of those paints. We can never see the colors that a bird can see and we can never see 4 or 5 dimensions of space. We can never hear a tone beyond our range of hearing nor taste a flavor that is not one of the 5 we are born with.
But the real world, is not painted it colors, meanings, flavors and sounds. The apple it self has no shape, size, color, texture, scent, flavor, name, or meaning. Which is not to say that it does not exist, it exists and is painted with paints that our brain can never know, as we can only know the changes in our brain chemistry, which is to say we only know our own pallet of paints and can not even IMAGINE anything beyond those limits.
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"can not even IMAGINE anything beyond those limits"
you were mostly correct, except for this point.
You might want to look up accounts of people, born blind due to physiological reasons, who report visual OBE during near-death experiences.
Besides, your argument is to use empirical reasoning to establish that empirical evidence is the only way of knowing anything. Do you see the tautology?
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""It's so hard to believe in anything anymore. I mean, it's like, religion... You really can't take it seriously because it seems so mythological; it seems so arbitrary.... But, on the other hand, science is just pure empiricism, and, by virtue of its method, it excludes metaphysics. So... I guess I wouldn't believe in anything anymore if it weren't for my lucky astrology mood watch."
ā Steve Martin"
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@Froclown said
"Atoms are the basic building blocks of EVERYTHING, in fact atoms are the only things than exist because EVERYTHING is made of atoms, there is nothing else out from which to build anything.
YOU and all humans are THINGS that exist in the universe, THUS You are Atoms and nothing else.
There is no need to postulate that anything that is not included in EVERYTHING that exists in the universe, is necessary to human life. Thus a human is a thing in the universe made out of Atoms, ie physical matter, ie the ONLY ontological substance which exists ANYWHERE.
QED"
I can show you atoms, too. A few kilos of carbon, about 8 pints of water, iron, calcium, sulphur, sodium chloride, zinc, complex hydrocarbons, and smaller piles of other stuff too.
Is it a human being?
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To be fair, I agree with Froclown, everything he has said makes perfect sense, and does not require the bending of modern science to suit personal theories about the world. It is also a healthy position, if we were to believe others without scrutinizing and weighing evidence, and checking on methods we would easily be mislead. A god of the gaps argument, like the ones made from the complexity of quantum mechanics, and loss of body weight, are essentially saying look- here is something that we currently do not understand, therefore it proves my world view. I can only imagine how many such arguments were made for rainbows before we understood refraction.
To be more fair yet again, this skeptical position, is the perfect starting point for exploring the occult, personally once I get projection down to a controllable ability, I intend to do experiments on it, to verify one way or another where it is a construct of the brain, or something more objective than that. So I respect the opinions of many people here who may have verified from experiment such things for themselves, but your personal verifications cannot ever be proof to another person.
(Ninja edit: I love this forums stance on sexism in general and in the occult, its nice to see such a healthy stance given Crowley views)
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@Andrey said
"To be fair, I agree with Froclown, everything he has said makes perfect sense, and does not require the bending of modern science to suit personal theories about the world. It is also a healthy position, if we were to believe others without scrutinizing and weighing evidence, and checking on methods we would easily be mislead. A god of the gaps argument, like the ones made from the complexity of quantum mechanics, and loss of body weight, are essentially saying look- here is something that we currently do not understand, therefore it proves my world view. I can only imagine how many such arguments were made for rainbows before we understood refraction.
To be more fair yet again, this skeptical position, is the perfect starting point for exploring the occult, personally once I get projection down to a controllable ability, I intend to do experiments on it, to verify one way or another where it is a construct of the brain, or something more objective than that. So I respect the opinions of many people here who may have verified from experiment such things for themselves, but your personal verifications cannot ever be proof to another person.
(Ninja edit: I love this forums stance on sexism in general and in the occult, its nice to see such a healthy stance given Crowley views)"
Kind of. Ish.
The point I'm making is that something animates us from mere atoms. Something makes us greater in power than an amoeba. Something within nearly all of us says it would be wrong of me to kill or rape someone's mother. All those things remain constant, regardless of our Aeon.
I would point at that thing (I care not what you wish to call it ~ it has many names), utterly undefinable and unexplainable by science, and say "This is a soul. It is important."
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@Froclown said
"Show me where a controlled experiment has proved statistically significant data to support the hypothesis that it is possible to project one's awareness such as to accurately describe events that are not disclosed to the senses of the body. "
One does not need statistical analysis to verify certain types of outcomes. Three remote viewers can be sent to a target and 2 can fail while the third is successful and as far as the NSA or CIA is concerned that is a positive outcome.
The proof is not an r-squared but the usefulness of the accuracy and detail reported back from a remote target.
If you know nothing about this whole remote viewing business a little reading on the subject might give you some perspective. Here is one site that is not real good but gives cursory notes;
ilvaremoteviewing.com/index.htmThe government's psychics
First, let's talk about Black Ops, a secret department within our Military Intelligence Department of the Army.
In 1973 Stanford Research Institute started doing classified research on Remote Viewing funded by the United States government.
The two primary psychics SRI were researching were lngo Swann and Pat Price. These guys were so good that when they went remote viewing it was as if their ghosts were actually in the building, walking through it, while their physical bodies sat in chairs and delivered a tour guide's monologue. -
Talking about atoms as the ultimate level of reality today is pretty much the same as clinging to the classical view of the Universe composed of solely 4 elements - earth, water, fire and air.
Yes, there is a value in that view in terms of certain psychical approaches to the Universe, but I doubt many scientists these days would back a scrapping of the Table of Elements as a "God of the gaps" model.Next we'll be getting told that the earth is actually flat, and resting on the back of a giant tortoise.
This is the 21st Century folks, we can do better than "atoms".
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Remote viewing is bullshit and the fact that the CIA believes in it, is no better proof that the fact that the SS believed in the power of mythical relics like the holy grail and the Spear of Odin, Or that the Beatles believed in peace vibes.
There is no such thing as truth by authority.
There is 0 evidence that remote viewing is anything other than vague guesses and intuitions.
"OH I, see I see a big red Barn.
Well there is a fire truck here, so that's close enough."
NO, That is Bullshit.
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The question here is the difference between the definition of the word "transmittance" and "transmittal."
I'll give you a minute to look those up. I'm being precise here...
Self and Object. Object and Self. I and Thou. I and It. All criss-crossed down through the planes of harmonic vibration.
In my current understanding, it is the Current itself which is Alive, the Child, and through various transformations, Self-Consciousness. Heruraha!
And through its Larger and more fully developed Nexi, the Spirit Moves and stirs as it Will, according to the laws of Equilibration and Karma, based upon the Initial Equation.
Ultimately, All is Maya, painted with the interwoven Stories of the Lives of the All-Father and his Bride. The many-colored Marriage Garment.
But there are Currents, and there are currents, and there are currents, and there are currents...
I don't know if my metaphors help you any, but they help me bridge the gap between the pattern I know myself to be, and the patterns I see below and above, both in size and in function, as well as in the patterns of change.
I think of humans as trees grown in the garden of the Union between the most High and the most Low. Trees draw air and fire from their branches and water and earth from their roots. So, I imagine, flows the Current of the Lord of the Light and of the Darkness.
Trees do not need to touch the Sun in order to draw nourishment from it. There are such higher, subtler orders of transmittance, and lower subtler orders of transmittance, that one might need instead to switch terms in one's mind to transmittal and begin thinking in terms of information instead of energy.
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@Froclown said
"NO, That is Bullshit."
No,its not. But we are allowed to have differing opinions on the matter. I don't think you really know very much about the subject. How deeply have you looked into it? Have you read any books about it?
@Froclown said
"There is no such thing as truth by authority. "
No one claimed that there was.
@Froclown said
"There is 0 evidence that remote viewing is anything other than vague guesses and intuitions. "
That is a patently false statement.
@Froclown said
"the fact that the CIA believes in it, is no better proof that the fact that the SS believed in the power of mythical relics like the holy grail and the Spear of Odin,"
No one claimed that it was "proof". Just that the results were reliable enough to re-task a satellite and successful, valuable intelligence gathering is the result. How do you know the SS believed in anything? Just because Die Fuhrer or some other High ranking officer ordered them to do something does not mean the entire org believed in anything.
There are many things in this world that have not been proven or scientifically evaluated. That does not mean they aren't real, valid, or useful.
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Yes sure They really remote view, of course. Not at all that they are using cold reading and other techniques to fool the people they are describing those hall ways too.
" Oh I am in a building, it has long halls, these halls have doors on either side, and the doors have numbers, even on the right and odd on the left."
"Oh my goodness, he really can do it, it's almost like he has been in a hallway before!"
Yeah next thing you will be telling me that John Edwards really can speak to the dead.
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Frater LA
All you are saying is a bunch of vague jargon that does not quite describe anything.
The truth is simple, All things are made of material substance, ie matter, matter is composed of Atoms. Substances have properties in how they react to other substances. For example electron carry a negative charge so they repel other electrons but they are attracted to Protons which carry a positive charge.
The way things interact, attracting and repelling each other in complex ways build systems of things which interact as complex unites. H20 because of the way it is stuck together, has a positive charged end and a negative charged end, to the molecule. which is different than the H2 and the 02 by themselves. The properties of water are the result of lots of H2O molecules interacting. Water is liquid because the ends than repel get the molecules far apart, unless it get's too cold or too high pressure that this repelling electrical property is countered. The surface tension of water is due to the attracting ends of water sticking together.
Animals cells are the same way, they are just complex arrangements of atoms, such that they system of attractions and repulsions of different types of molecules are complex. Cells attract certain molecules and allow, the membrane allows some to enter and repulses other away, depending on the properties of the electron configuration. The cell then breaks some molecules and uses the heat given off to spark other chemical reactions which build cell organelles, membranes, or proteins used to build beyond the cell itself, the parts of the body.
The cells then interact an environment where one type of cell produces what the other types use, such that cell communities form tissues. And different tissues form organs, bones, skin, heart, etc. The organs work together to keep the body functioning. Each part at each layer uses something and produces something, the only thing that makes a human more than an amoeba, is the level of structure. The Amoeba is not part of a larger community, which gives and takes, towards a common goal, A lichen on the other hand is a single cell fungus and plant (Algae) which the fungus feeds the plant what it breaks down from rocks and the plant feeds the fungus the sugar it get's from photosynthesis, this kind of mutually beneficial parasitism, is what builds up in complex ways to form larger multi-cellular and complex animals.
Some Animals continue this pattern, ants for example protect aphids and the ants drink the sugar water the aphids secrete. Also ants and bees produce different types of castes, that is they have different genetic roles, workers, drones, queens, etc. Each has it's role in the community and each supports the other's weakness with it's strength. These simple insects have been using genetic manipulation for aeons, feeding special enzyms to the young to produce the type of adults they need, in the numbers they need. It Termites there is a system where each type of caste produces a pheromone, if the overall percent of say soldiers gets too low, then the lack of this pheromone will cause worker termites to change into soldiers.
There are other social animals like wolves that have roles which are not genetic but are more or less assigned by gender and by fighting for pecking order. In wolves and some apes, the lead male develops physical features, larger teeth and the main as a few, Only so long as it holds the position as alpha, if he is defeated in a fight and reduced to a lesser status or exiled, those exaggerated sexual features will fade away. Thus we see the expression of genetic traits is a result of social status in a larger group
Now, when we look at humans, it is the same thing. It is a biological system where we have individual anatomical traits that suit us for filling a role in a larger community. As well as to seeking a sexual pair bond.
To playing a role that where strengths and weaknesses cover each other as part of something larger, just like cells in a tissue or organs in the body. It is nothing mysterious and non-physical. It is very rooted in the physical substance of matter, the atoms that make up our body. The properties of attraction and repulsion, which combine in complex ways, which form everything there is.It is all physical, there is no "LORD" and the cosmos as a whole is not alive. In fact nothing is "alive" it is all just interaction of material substances, there is no agency, no self. The Universe has no self, nor does the sun, the moon, the earth, the society, the human, the organ, the tissue, the cell, the molecule, the atom, the proton, the quark.
There is no self, all is an empty mechanical process, there is no Deus Ex Machina.
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@Froclown said
"Yes sure They really remote view, of course. Not at all that they are using cold reading and other techniques to fool the people they are describing those hall ways too.
" Oh I am in a building, it has long halls, these halls have doors on either side, and the doors have numbers, even on the right and odd on the left."
"Oh my goodness, he really can do it, it's almost like he has been in a hallway before."
In other words... you really do have no idea what remote viewing is or what the procedures and documented results are. I recommend Remote Viewing Secrets: A Handbook by Joseph McMoneagle for starters.
These guys do not just go down a hallway. They go down a hallway on the other side of the world and they describe it exactly as it is known to be by independent reports by someone who has been there (but is not present at the time of the event). Then they go into an unknown room and report on what is in there, when no one else knows what is in there. Then some time later their reports are physically confirmed to be accurate. Over and over again.
Not only does the remote viewer not even know what the "target" is... the assistant does not even know. The target is in an envelope that no one on site has opened.
Please get some clue about the subject before commenting further.
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"Remote viewing was popularized in the 1990s, following the declassification of documents related to the Stargate Project, a $20 million research program sponsored by the U.S. Federal Government to determine any potential military application of psychic phenomena. The program was terminated in 1995, citing a lack of documented evidence that the program had any value to the intelligence community.
One of the early experiments was lauded by proponents as having improved the methodology of remote viewing testing and as raising future experimental standards, but also criticized as leaking information to the participants by inadvertently leaving clues. Some later experiments had negative results when these clues were eliminated"
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@Froclown said
"Some later experiments had negative results when these clues were eliminated""
And some continue to have 'negative' results. And some will continue to do so. "Some" don't mean jack diddly. That does not change the fact that the 'positive' results are real and undeniable. That is why the program persists. 100% accuracy and flawless repeatability is not a reasonable expectation for many endeavors. Most of us do not have the car towed to the junkyard when it fails to start as expected.
Please dig a little deeper and get some familiarity with the reality of this method.
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"The process of evaluation by parapsychologists of a "hit" for remote viewing is similar to that used in the Maimonides dream telepathy experiments. If an occasional description seems apt to the target, that's a hit. If it isn't, exploit the ambiguity of the description or revert to allowing symbolic connections and that's a hit too. In other words, a hit's a hit and so is a miss. In fact, there is no precise, clear-cut definition of what will count as a hit before the test begins. Because of the leeway in interpretation that is allowed judges of hits and misses, there is no way to falsify the remote viewing hypothesis using such tests. Without a reliable method that could falsify a claim, one can let the imagination run wild and allow confirmation bias to count as scientific testing."
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@Froclown said
"Because of the leeway in interpretation that is allowed judges of hits and misses, there is no way to falsify the remote viewing hypothesis using such tests."
If the re-tasked satellite gets loads of images of a new class of Soviet Submarine on the day of its unveiling at the place of its unveiling... in that particular business the results are priceless and a few misses for every hit are more than acceptable. And the statistical odds are astronomical.
Step back a bit... take a breather... get objective for a moment.
think about it....