Temple of Thelema vs A.'.A.'. degrees
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Just out of curiosity, how do the Temple of Thelema degrees stack up against the A.'.A.'. degrees? They both use the Tree of Life, as far as I know, so what is the "scale difference" between them?
And there are two or three Orders within the Temple of Thelema, if I recall correctly; do any of these overlap with A.'.A.'. degrees, or are they (ToT degrees) all "beneath" them (A.'.A.'. degrees)?
Just wondering as I ponder my goals for the distant future.
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@Ash said
"Just out of curiosity, how do the Temple of Thelema degrees stack up against the A.'.A.'. degrees? They both use the Tree of Life, as far as I know, so what is the "scale difference" between them?
And there are two or three Orders within the Temple of Thelema, if I recall correctly; do any of these overlap with A.'.A.'. degrees, or are they (ToT degrees) all "beneath" them (A.'.A.'. degrees)?"
Interesting that you use the phrase "scale difference," since I answer a similar question in my forthcoming book by discussing a "difference of scale." More on that below.
In some ways this is a tricky question - in some ways quite simple. (The answer itself is simple enough, provided one is careful not to let anyone mislead themselves with the answer.)
So, let's start with this: There is no intrinsic connection, in the sense (for example) that there is no Temple of Thelema degree that inherently grants or confers any A.'.A.'. grade.
Nonetheless, there are obvious "equivalencies," simply because each is mapping (in its own terms) the same path of unfolding.
The simplest answer is that Temple of Thelema degrees are (theoretically) exactly equivalent to Golden Dawn grades; and this is where your question overlaps with something I've been writing recently, which is the "difference in scaling" of A.'.A.'. vs. G.D. grades. The most useful basis of comparison - between these two systems and pretty much any other - is the Four Worlds. The G.D. First Order was worked in Assiah. Admission to the Second Order marked admission to the Yetiratic level of working (either at once or, especially, in the second sub-grade). Though no one in the original G.D. reached 8=3, it would have represented an opening to Briah. In contrast, A.'.A.'. grades open to Yetzirah in 2=9 (Path of Tav being the transition); and to Briah in 5=6 (that is, on the completion of Dom. Lim.).
The most exact equivalency in Temple of Thelema is that our 8° is indistinguishable (in terms of attainment) from A.'.A.'. 5=6.
The original intent was that the First Order of Temple of Thelema would fulfill the Student phase of A.'.A.'.. We weren't necessarily expecting that there would be a 5° in other than name, and, upon finishing the First Order, one would be eligible for admission as a Probationer. This is still the most common path people select, and the one that seems to provide the most solid preparation.
Have I confused you with my obsessively candid answer yet?
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Are there any specific requirements for acceptance into the T.o.T.? And if so what are they? furthermore what is the level of confidentiality regarding members identities? how strict and what is the structure of interaction between members?(for example Is it strictly vertical? or both vertical and lateral?) Finally does the A.A. officially recognize the T.o.T. degrees? would one cease working the T.o.T system when one began working the A.A. system? or do both simultaneously?
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@x6 said
"Are there any specific requirements for acceptance into the T.o.T.?"
Yes. For example, there's a minimum age of legal majority.
"furthermore what is the level of confidentiality regarding members identities?"
Membership is confidential. That is, no one may disclose someone else's membership to anyone not in the Order - without that person's explicit permission - although a person can disclose his or her own membership. For example, I'm a member of Temple of Thelema.
"how strict and what is the structure of interaction between members?(for example Is it strictly vertical? or both vertical and lateral?)"
I don't understand the question.
"Finally does the A.A. officially recognize the T.o.T. degrees? would one cease working the T.o.T system when one began working the A.A. system? or do both simultaneously?"
These questions touch on Temple of Thelema's internal workings, and those matters are confidential.
EDIT: After sleeping on this, I think I should add a few things to this last answer.
(1) The A.'.A.'. isn't in the practice of "officially recognizing" anyone or anything.
(2) No Temple of Thelema degree or other standing has any direct affect on any A.'.A.'. grade. In places where there is an overlap of work accomplished, then the accomplishment of the specific work would have its own effect.
(3) A longer answer of the relative relationship can be found in my several pages comparing the Golden Dawn grades to A.'.A.'. grades in Chapter 2 of Visions & Voices.
(4) Your last two questions seem to presume that all people would make the same choice. They do not. -
@Jim Eshelman said
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"how strict and what is the structure of interaction between members?(for example Is it strictly vertical? or both vertical and lateral?)"
I don't understand the question."
the question assumes a pyramid hierarchal structure, vertical interaction would be interaction strictly with those or one higher up or lower on the pyramid while lateral would imply interaction with members of the same grade. although it is related but not directly implied would this include social interactions? or is this generally frowned upon? thanks for your replies.
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@x6 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
""how strict and what is the structure of interaction between members?(for example Is it strictly vertical? or both vertical and lateral?)"
I don't understand the question."
the question assumes a pyramid hierarchal structure, vertical interaction would be interaction strictly with those or one higher up or lower on the pyramid while lateral would imply interaction with members of the same grade. although it is related but not directly implied would this include social interactions? or is this generally frowned upon? thanks for your replies."
Temple of Thelema was created to be, and primarily is, a group system. All members are free to interact with all members, and do so routinely within the framework of their own Temple. It's functional mechanism is group ceremonial working.
Social action is not at all frowned upon; it simply isn't a purpose of the Order. Most of the members are also personal friends with other members.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Temple of Thelema was created to be, and primarily is, a group system. All members are free to interact with all members, and do so routinely within the framework of their own Temple. It's functional mechanism is group ceremonial working."
So then would you say this is the major difference between the two systems?
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Yes. Not the biggest difference, but a significant difference.
We already had a predominantly solitary system. What was needed was a nonsolitary system. That was a conscious decision in the design.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. Not the biggest difference, but a significant difference.
"Thank you. what would you say was the biggest difference?
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See my original answer on this thread and especially the remarks on scaling.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Temple of Thelema was created to be, and primarily is, a group system. "
Why choose ToT over the OTO? What is the difference?
How much group work is involved? Could one partake via correspondance and the occasional face-to-face?
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@horustheantichris said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Temple of Thelema was created to be, and primarily is, a group system. "Why choose ToT over the OTO? What is the difference?"
In a practical way, they are essentially unrelated systems. Almost the only solid commonality is sharing the same primary Holy Book.
"How much group work is involved? Could one partake via correspondance and the occasional face-to-face?"
You have to be present.
At minimum, you have to be present for your initiation and each degree step. The system is set so that maximum benefit is obtained by those who make all regularly scheduled meetings. In particular, a standard monthly ritual is part of the alchemy effected on the initiate, and also establishes patterns that later (1) become basic to the transformation in the Portal degree and (2) becme the foundation of much pratical magical work in the Second Order. The big deal is that the ongoing monthly ritual makes magical changes in the individual.
Provisions are made for people who live at such a distance that they can only rarely be physically present. There is no way around the requirement to be physically present for initiation and degree steps. Becaue such at-a-distance membership deprives a member of a significant amount of the advantage, and is a greater risk for the Order, greater care (a higher bar) is set for such applicants. But we have about 20% of the membership in that category.
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Thanks for your answer Jim. Can you tell me, how successful are people who use your book MMAA and pursue this on their own?
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@horustheantichris said
"Thanks for your answer Jim. Can you tell me, how successful are people who use your book MMAA and pursue this on their own?"
I don't know. By definition, those are people I mostly don't hear from
Thank you, Jim.