Magic(k) and Hubris
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93
Just interested in some opinions of other practitioners of magick in regards to this subject. In other fields of paganism, I very often find myself having to defend magick's stance, mostly against those that consider themselves practitioners of Hellenismos, modern Hellenic Polytheists or Reconstructionists.
From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?
93 93/93
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93
Just interested in some opinions of other practitioners of magick in regards to this subject. In other fields of paganism, I very often find myself having to defend magick's stance, mostly against those that consider themselves practitioners of Hellenismos, modern Hellenic Polytheists or Reconstructionists.
From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?
93 93/93
If someone is in TrueWill they are mostly likely not using majik(magick) against destiny, they would be using it in favor of, or to advance thier own path. If your in defence, would that not also imply that you are against the forces you should be supporting you?
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93
Just interested in some opinions of other practitioners of magick in regards to this subject. In other fields of paganism, I very often find myself having to defend magick's stance, mostly against those that consider themselves practitioners of Hellenismos, modern Hellenic Polytheists or Reconstructionists.
From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?
93 93/93
As an partially overlapping analogy, psychology can be used to manipulate someone into participating in a very unhealthy dynamic, or it can be used to heal a person.
Completely avoiding magick because someone else used it for nefarious purposes seems kind of like avoiding painting with the color red because someone drew a horrible devil with the same color.
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93
Just interested in some opinions of other practitioners of magick in regards to this subject. In other fields of paganism, I very often find myself having to defend magick's stance, mostly against those that consider themselves practitioners of Hellenismos, modern Hellenic Polytheists or Reconstructionists.
From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?
93 93/93
@Khephra said
"From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?"
First, I don't regard magick as "manipulating deity," etc. That's not how it works. You don't distort the omnipotent outpouring of a god to your personal purposes. Rather, you find the deity that is naturally aligned with that purpose and offer yourself as a vehicle to Its expression.
Second, I agree that magick (in any sense we're likely talking aboug it) was not part of the ancient Greek religion. (Most, but not all, Greek magical manuscripts, are Christian.) Offerings, supplications, prayers, etc. were the ways of practicing that religion. But, then, remember that it was the popular religion of the day, and should be compared not to today's magicians but, rather, to today's church-going Christians. If this is what these people are reviving, then you should expect from them exactly that reaction.
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93
Just interested in some opinions of other practitioners of magick in regards to this subject. In other fields of paganism, I very often find myself having to defend magick's stance, mostly against those that consider themselves practitioners of Hellenismos, modern Hellenic Polytheists or Reconstructionists.
From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?
93 93/93
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93
Just interested in some opinions of other practitioners of magick in regards to this subject. In other fields of paganism, I very often find myself having to defend magick's stance, mostly against those that consider themselves practitioners of Hellenismos, modern Hellenic Polytheists or Reconstructionists.
From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?
93 93/93
Thanks very much for everyone's input. Sometimes it does a lot of good to see things for another perspective.
@ Jim Eshelman
That was a well put response that hit home with me. I've often found myself benefiting from your knowledgeable posts when browsing the forum. Oddly enough, I do seem to notice that many views expressed by said individuals seem to express more similarities from views of their fundamental upbringings, and Greek Orthodox Church, than that of the supposed historic orthopraxy.Cheers!
93's
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93
Just interested in some opinions of other practitioners of magick in regards to this subject. In other fields of paganism, I very often find myself having to defend magick's stance, mostly against those that consider themselves practitioners of Hellenismos, modern Hellenic Polytheists or Reconstructionists.
From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?
93 93/93
93
Nothing like a bit of thread necromancy to spend a holiday break. Whilst doing a bit of side research I happened to stumble across this thread referenced on a website called Hellenismos.Us
hellenismos.us/f/YaBB.pl?num=1285174165/75
Oddly enough this is the same lot that I had in mind when I created this. I think it's good that practices among ritual magicians, occultists, Thelemites, e.t.c. are stumbled upon, consorted, and examined(by accident or not) when someone is forming their own opinion in relation to this, but also that it appears quite hubris to try and speak on behalf of another's logic when making a side comment.
Regardless, another interpretation to have none the less.
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93
Just interested in some opinions of other practitioners of magick in regards to this subject. In other fields of paganism, I very often find myself having to defend magick's stance, mostly against those that consider themselves practitioners of Hellenismos, modern Hellenic Polytheists or Reconstructionists.
From their world view, even though magic was practiced in the ancient Hellenic world, it was not a recognised part of the codified religion, even worse, condemned as the most heinous hubris of manipulating the Gods. Different from prayers, which leave the person at the mercy of the Gods, magick manipulates deity or the cosmos as an impious way of getting what the magician wants.
I understand magick's ability to be secular, recognised as a science and art by many Thelemites, but what are your opinions in regards to this view?
93 93/93
I look at it this way, do you consider painting or any other art (such as music) a manipulation of the gods? Magic to me is an art form and a science combined into one. In fact I see it as the art of the gods. So why shouldn't we learn it? Don't we want to learn how to do things on our own when we are children trying to gain independence? Just a thought.