Trying to reconcile the Four Worlds with the Sepiroth
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Ok. I'm not new to magick but kinda somewhat new to the Qablah. I just finished reading Dione Fortune's The Mystical Qabalah and Jim's Four Worlds essay from the forthcoming Visions and Voices and I have a question....
I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept of the Four Worlds. Part of me thinks I can just ignore the Four Worlds and focus on the Sepiroth but that may not be a smart thing.
Why do we need the Four Worlds on a practical level, are not the Sephira enough?
When I think about the Four Worlds and the idea that the COMPLETE tree is manifest in each one then seeming problems arise for me..... is not Yetzirah covering the same ground as the Astral Triangle of Yod, Netzach and Yesod?
Is not Assiah covering the same ground as Malkuth? What would Yesod manifesting in Assiah appear as? (the Moon??)
How would Malkuth manifest in any of the Supernals?
There are 32 paths not 128 ( I think
)
How are the Four Worlds applicable in initation, if the path of attainment is represented in the ten Sepiroth?
I'm not expecting anyone to answer these questions individually as they are just meant to point seeming contradictions, and if not, from the standpoint of an initiate seeking his HGA, why bother with the Four Worlds at all?
What is there that cannot be expressed through the Sepiroth that neccessiates invoking the Four Worlds? -
@Mahanta70 said
"Why do we need the Four Worlds on a practical level, are not the Sephira enough?"
Sometimes one must wonder if the Sephiroth aren't too much! <g>
The Sephiroth exist in the four Worlds. Since you just finished reading Fortune, let's take a traditional theurgical example. Geburah has a divine name attributed to it, Elohim Gibbor: This is the expression of Geburah in Atziluth. It has an archangel, Kamael, which is the expression of Geburah in Briah. It has a Choir of Angels, the Seraphim, which express the nature of Geburah in Yetzirah. And it corresponds to the planet Mars, which is one expression of Geburah in Assiah (as does, I suppose, a poke in the eye with a sharp stick). When one works practically with these, it is usually quite helpful to understand the difference.
It is also enormously valuable in one's spiritual growth. It's a good check on oneself to know whether one is approach an inner experience at, say, a Yetziratic vs. Briatic level.
And there are numerous other instances. If you read my book Visions & Voices, you'll see how Crowley's different visions manifest on different planes, and gave different teachings depending on the plane at which he hit the same idea. Those teachings are relevant to the plane on which they're given, but not necessarily those planes that are higher or lower.
"When I think about the Four Worlds and the idea that the COMPLETE tree is manifest in each one then seeming problems arise for me..... is not Yetzirah covering the same ground as the Astral Triangle of Yod, Netzach and Yesod?"
No. That's the exact error to avoid.
There is one model of relating the Sephiroth and Worlds where that would be true. That model is useful, for example, in the A.'.A.'. grade system where one opens to Yetzirah in the Path of Tav, and opens to Briah in the Path of Samekh. But that's a very specialized use and doesn't even agree (for example) with the similar-seeming Golden Dawn grade system where one didn't open to Yetizratic working until Tiphereth. (The Second Order in A.'.A.'. begins at Yesod; in the G.D., it begins at Tiphereth.)
To put it another way: If you limit Yesod to Yetzirah, what are you going to do with your genitals! (Yeah, I know that's an absurdly provocative question.
) Your genitals are one expression of Yesod in Assiah. Or, what are you going to do about Shaddai El Chai, the God-force expressed in Yesod which is the spiritualized essence of life itself?"Is not Assiah covering the same ground as Malkuth?"
Same answer as above. If it were limited there, then what about the planet Jupiter as a physical expression of Chesed? Your physical heart or the Sun or gold as Tiphereth in Assiah? Etc.
"What would Yesod manifesting in Assiah appear as? (the Moon??)"
Yes. And, as mentioned above, your dick.
"How would Malkuth manifest in any of the Supernals?"
Not the Supernals - Atziluth. You're confusing Sephiroth (the Supernals) with a World (Atziluth).
Malkuth in Atziluth is expressed in the aspect of God called Adonai, with all of His profound aspects of expression, of whom we might say:
"We see Thee in the sunrise and sunset â glowing through the heavens of day, radiating from the stars of night. Weaving thy Robes of Mystery in the fabric of lakes and meadows, of mountains and seas. Flashing thy brilliant hues in labyrinthine arrays of splendor. Singing the symphony of Creation through thine embodiment in flying, creeping, and walking garb. Bring us, we pray, to ever-greater awareness, that it is THOU who sees through our eyes, THOU who hears through our ears, THOU who speaks through our lips, and THOU who acts in every movement of our going."
"There are 32 paths not 128 ( I think
)"There are 32 Paths, but they each exist in 4 Worlds.
"How are the Four Worlds applicable in initation, if the path of attainment is represented in the ten Sepiroth?"
I've hinted at this above. It depends on the system of initiation, because they are scaled differently. The Tiphereth initiation of the G.D. (who sears to begin aspiring to a particular result) is not the same as the Tiphereth initiate in the A.'.A.'. (who has attained to it). - At the risk of sounding like a constant ad machine, I've devoted several pages to this exact question in Chapter 2 of Visions & Voices.
"from the standpoint of an initiate seeking his HGA, why bother with the Four Worlds at all?
"That's the biggest question you've asked yet, and probably the best example of their importance. Let me ask you this: What does the experience of the Holy Guardian Angel look like in each of the four Worlds individually (because they are dramatically different experiences!)? In which of the four Worlds does the experience called Knowledge & Conversation occur?
"What is there that cannot be expressed through the Sepiroth that neccessiates invoking the Four Worlds?"
I might ask instead (or in complement): What is there that cannot be expressed through the four Worlds that requires the Sephiroth?
PS - I think you are probably using the Four Worlds model quite a lot, without realizing you are doing so. You have fit them to the Sephiroth, so you're primarily using the Sephiroth as a modified Four Worlds idea. You are thinking of Kether vs. Malkuth essentially as one would think of Atziluth vs. Assiah.
But that's an overly narrow view of the Sephiroth. At least you would benefit from realizing that you're really making the same kinds of distinctions, but simply calling those distinctions something else.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Mahanta70 said
"Why do we need the Four Worlds on a practical level, are not the Sephira enough?"Sometimes one must wonder if the Sephiroth aren't too much! <g>
The Sephiroth exist in the four Worlds. Since you just finished reading Fortune, let's take a traditional theurgical example. Geburah has a divine name attributed to it, Elohim Gibbor: This is the expression of Geburah in Atziluth. It has an archangel, Kamael, which is the expression of Geburah in Briah. It has a Choir of Angels, the Seraphim, which express the nature of Geburah in Yetzirah. And it corresponds to the planet Mars, which is one expression of Geburah in Assiah (as does, I suppose, a poke in the eye with a sharp stick). When one works practically with these, it is usually quite helpful to understand the difference.
"Thanks for the example Jim. I think I understand now. I need to think really hard to understand but when I do I can.
I'm trying to get a visual grasp on it - it feels like some cube or hyper cube of sorts!
My previous line of thought would have permitted Netzach to manifest on Malkuth as the Planet Venus. Now I see the why the Four Worlds make more sense.
Now my question is, is not some four sided (cube) with a tree of life on each side not a more appropriate representation of Qabalah then just the Tree of Life (which would be one of the four faces)?
It may sound trivial, but all the visual representations of the Qabalah I have seen just show the Tree..why not a Cube? Maybe it's just me!
@Jim Eshelman said
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It is also enormously valuable in one's spiritual growth. It's a good check on oneself to know whether one is approach an inner experience at, say, a Yetziratic vs. Briatic level."
Would an inner experience not be instantly distinguishable? I mean an image of a beautiful woman would automatically be known as a manifestation of Netzach in Yetzirah while getting stepping into dog shit would be a manifestation of Geburah in Assiah.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"from the standpoint of an initiate seeking his HGA, why bother with the Four Worlds at all?
"That's the biggest question you've asked yet, and probably the best example of their importance. Let me ask you this: What does the experience of the Holy Guardian Angel look like in each of the four Worlds individually (because they are dramatically different experiences!)? In which of the four Worlds does the experience called Knowledge & Conversation occur?"
I have not had the K&C but I assume it would occur in Assiah by way of Tipareth(?)!
@Jim Eshelman said
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"What is there that cannot be expressed through the Sepiroth that neccessiates invoking the Four Worlds?"
I might ask instead (or in complement): What is there that cannot be expressed through the four Worlds that requires the Sephiroth?
PS - I think you are probably using the Four Worlds model quite a lot, without realizing you are doing so. You have fit them to the Sephiroth, so you're primarily using the Sephiroth as a modified Four Worlds idea. You are thinking of Kether vs. Malkuth essentially as one would think of Atziluth vs. Assiah.
But that's an overly narrow view of the Sephiroth. At least you would benefit from realizing that you're really making the same kinds of distinctions, but simply calling those distinctions something else."
I need to put more thought into this, that's for sure!
Now I was googling as I was writing this response and I was shocked to find that some are attributing the individual Sephiroth of one of the Four Worlds, treating them as horizontal planes that intersect the Tree( as opposed to the vertical plane distinctions of the three pillars).
Here are links to two of those sites:
www.workofthechariot.com/TextFiles/Teachings-FourWorlds.html
www.webofqabalah.com/fourworlds.htmlNow I'm really confused.
I guess there are many interpretations of the Four Worlds. I wonder which is the most common to magickians.
I'm going to start reading Regardies Garden of something-hard to spell tonight.
I need to think about these concepts alot more thoroughly before I ask more questions!
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@Mahanta70 said
"Now my question is, is not some four sided (cube) with a tree of life on each side not a more appropriate representation of Qabalah then just the Tree of Life (which would be one of the four faces)?"
What are you trying to represent with this? First, a cube has six faces, not four. Second, it isn't a very good representation of the four Worlds because it isn't hierachical. A much better way is one above the other, or one within the other. (Above = within.)
"It may sound trivial, but all the visual representations of the Qabalah I have seen just show the Tree..why not a Cube?"
Paul Foster Case did contrive a way to represent as a cube the directional vectors of the 22 Paths (22 Hebrew letters) given in Sepher Yetzirah. You'll find this discussed in various places under the name "Cube of Space."