Crowley- Violator of others' Wills?
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@Dar said
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@Froclown said
"The Philosopher King with the caste system is the organic community. "Ah. sadly The caste system is not organic but an artificially imposed hierarchy that does not presume that every man and woman is a star.
"Every man and every woman is a star (please start quoting it correctly) - it is NOT Every couple is a star, it is Every Individual is a star. Every Man and Every Woman.... not Every man and woman.
And yes, caste system, even for all the bad taste it leaves in your mouth, is quite natural. Remember that thread that disappeared a while back? The one with the topic of hierarchy and my nifty little poems? Yes, it's that subject, it's natural order. Part of my brain is superior to other parts of my brain, and this may change from day to day. Some monkeys are better at this or that than other monkeys and monkeys that play together are monkeys that stay together. Even in a marriage there has to be place for every thing and every thing in its place. I know Dar that you don't take fondly to orders, but you give them and live them every day - so you might as well come to terms (know thyself, as they say) and admit to loving orders. Trust me, there will be so much less to argue about.
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@Dar said
"Don't try and teach me English mate."
Is that an order?
@Dar said
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The only time I take 'orders' are the non verbal ones when I have the right man's cock inside of me... otherwise all bets are off.[Added] - And why should I trust you again?"
So red lights and green lights and speed limits mean nothing to you? I'll remember to watch out for you the next time I'm riding my bicycle.
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@Dar said
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@Takamba said
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@Dar said
"Don't try and teach me English mate."Is that an order?"
You've accorded me no authority over you - so that's a silly question. It may be evidence of my hackles rising however...
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@Dar said
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The only time I take 'orders' are the non verbal ones when I have the right man's cock inside of me... otherwise all bets are off.[Added] - And why should I trust you again?"
So red lights and green lights and speed limits mean nothing to you?"
Yes. They're signals that convey information about the social conventions of the road. They aren't 'orders'. Sometimes the lights break and they stick on Red. People use their common sense - look - be safe - and drive through. They don't sit there at the lights thinking 'I must obey the red blesher... I must obey the red blesher...'
" I'll remember to watch out for you the next time I'm riding my bicycle. "
wtf? I'll be the one walking!
So... do you have a 'little woman' that you boss around the Takamba household while you sit on your {***} and be the head monkey? "
Now who's making assumptions. I currently do not have a partner, but when I do, we partner. I for one enjoy what other people add to my life, I don't need another me in my house. i have two arms and two legs and can cook and clean after myself. I always have. Unlike you, I wasn't raised to imagine men/women roles. I only know of things to do - not men things and women things.
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@Dar said
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@Takamba said
"I currently do not have a partner, but when I do, we partner. I for one enjoy what other people add to my life, I don't need another me in my house. i have two arms and two legs and can cook and clean after myself. I always have. ...I only know of things to do - not men things and women things."Good.
Now what do you mean when you say that I 'love orders'?"
the human mind loves order. We all do it, we categorize, label, order and systemically explain things to ourselves. Alphabets, numbers, even musical scales all prove this to us. I'm merely suggesting that you are unconsciously destroying yourself in some way or another when you believe you are against orders (hierarchies) for isn't it with order you do your magic (both great and small)?
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Ok let me clarify again.
The claims made are that economic powers displace the values and virtues of the Traditional ruling class. The arguments made are that the current capitalist economic system does not allow or support the ruling class system.
It seems to me that what you have done is made my argument for me. I am not for the capitalist system at all, nor for placing the highest or worse ONLY values on material wealth distribution. One can be rich and still be a slob, subject to avarice and pettiness and one can be a poor peasant and possess the highest moral virtues. I believe there is a verse in the book an that issue as well.
What I am saying is we need to kill the notion of entitlements all together, you are only entitled to what you earn with your own hands, no one has "Natural or God gives rights". Rather your right to do anything whatsoever is based on your might to uphold that right. "Man has a right to kill..." addresses the issue that it is your ability to defend even unto death your actions that grants you the right to them.
There is NO moral authority at all, there is no God but Man. That means there is no government, no state, no nation, no moral majority, no principle or law, than entitles anyone to anything at all. The only God is Man himself, his own interests and WILL guides him and it is only by "The force and vigour of his arms" that he succeeds of fails.
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@Froclown said
"What I am saying is we need to kill the notion of entitlements all together, you are only entitled to what you earn with your own hands, no one has "Natural or God gives rights"."
Yes, it's long been clear that this is what you believe. It is the Hadit-only principle, isolated from and denying the equal Nuit principle, especially by being based on the lie that there is actual separation, or difference, between you and anyone else. You're furthering the one-sidedness of imbalanced politics.
We are all individuals entitled to (expected to!) fulfill our individuality with the minimum of interference AND we are all part of a greater whole and wholly responsible to and for each other.
"Rather your right to do anything whatsoever is based on your might to uphold that right."
Thelema is not a right to do anything whatsoever. It's almost the opposite!
Thelema represents that there is only one thing that you have a right to do, and that is the singlular expression of your distinctive True Will (incorporating all those other "things" necessary to fulfill it).
"There is NO moral authority at all, there is no God but Man."
If I were to set aside debate on what those words actually mean and take you at face value: That is moral authority! Thelema is one of the most rigidly moral systems ever articulated in the history of the world.
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That moral structure is inherent in the nature of the individual (His biology) which is a product of the whole natural world as such it is an expression of the natural law.
I was speaking that in general the right to do anything, what I mean is the ability to do your ONE WILL, is not grated to you by an entitlement you have to actively use might and force to achieve it for yourself, no one gives you your WILL, YOU have to take it.
You are given the tools and the drive by nature as an element of who you are, but to make your ideal into a reality, You have to rely only on yourself and your own power.
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@Froclown said
"The claims made are that economic powers displace the values and virtues of the Traditional ruling class. The arguments made are that the current capitalist economic system does not allow or support the ruling class system. "
Who claims that? Bullshit! The economy is there to be manipulated for what it is worth, and without controls is one of the greatest sources of exploitation by unscrupulous persons imaginable. You can only claim these unscrupulous persons are superior, or else they are scum (my position). The traditional ruling class buys expert opinion and guidance with their wealth, producing more wealth, etc...
@Froclown said
"It seems to me that what you have done is made my argument for me. I am not for the capitalist system at all, nor for placing the highest or worse ONLY values on material wealth distribution. One can be rich and still be a slob, subject to avarice and pettiness and one can be a poor peasant and possess the highest moral virtues. I believe there is a verse in the book an that issue as well. "
Who are you calling 'you' white boy? I say, eat the rich! And as far as your utopian pipe-dream is concerned, if the wealthy have the army in their pockets, which is the norm, you will have no opportunity to make the case for poor peasants possessed of the highest moral virtues! So screw that!
@Froclown said
"What I am saying is we need to kill the notion of entitlements all together, you are only entitled to what you earn with your own hands, no one has "Natural or God gives rights". Rather your right to do anything whatsoever is based on your might to uphold that right. "Man has a right to kill..." addresses the issue that it is your ability to defend even unto death your actions that grants you the right to them. "
More Libertarian bull-crap! It seems you haven't been paying attention, not even to recent history—say, the last fifteen years? Dude, you have to be able to enforce this: "you are only entitled to what you earn with your own hands." And who or what is going to do that? Jeeeez, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
@Froclown said
"There is NO moral authority at all, there is no God but Man. That means there is no government, no state, no nation, no moral majority, no principle or law, than entitles anyone to anything at all. The only God is Man himself, his own interests and WILL guides him and it is only by "The force and vigour of his arms" that he succeeds of fails."
I don't care that 'technically' there is no moral authority. I just want to be on hand when you explain this to those governments and militias that use rape as a weapon of war! Your statement is supposed to imply, what? That's it's your own fault if you get gang raped in the arse? Fortunately, life is a lot more complicated than you want to make it out to be. Shouting platitudes will not change anything.
As always,
Love and Will
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@Froclown said
"I was speaking that in general the right to do anything, what I mean is the ability to do your ONE WILL, is not grated to you by an entitlement you have to actively use might and force to achieve it for yourself, no one gives you your WILL, YOU have to take it."
If you mean like Ghandi took it, then I agree with you, otherwise you are farting out of a place higher than your butt hole.
Love and will
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I apologize for my last post, it was rude.
Love and Will
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@Froclown said
"I was speaking that in general the right to do anything, what I mean is the ability to do your ONE WILL, is not grated to you by an entitlement you have to actively use might and force to achieve it for yourself, no one gives you your WILL, YOU have to take it."
I was with you until the last phrase. What's all this need to fight? Certainly sometime - in some contexts, with some people - that's necessary, but (also certainly) not as a generalization. You preach such a conflictual world, and that conflict is entirely unnecessary in most cases. You don't have to take anything.
BTW, while I would agree that the right (and necessity!) to do your will is innate, I'd also agree that unless society also identified this as a general entitlement, then there would be a need for conflict most of the time. That's a silly waste of energy.
"You are given the tools and the drive by nature as an element of who you are, but to make your ideal into a reality, You have to rely only on yourself and your own power."
You say this as if you exist separate from the rest of humanity. You don't. Your actions as an individual and the context and assistance of society as a whole are required for this achievement. (Even at the sociological level, this is becoming much more evident. Singular individual achievement rarely exists except in a context that enables and supports it.)
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it soldiers are raping it is because they fail to adhere to a code of honour, like bushido or Chivalry, which is the hallmark of a traditional warrior caste. The reason they fail to uphold these values and honour, is that they no longer believe in the either the spiritual sanction of such values and-or they have lost all sense of tradition and belonging to the community whole reputation stands on the behaviour of it's member, especially the way it's soldiers behave in other lands.
Generally this is because the faith in the ruling class due to their corruption has shifted people to be suspicious of all authority, including the abstract authority of values and virtue, "the Gods are a lie and the priests are puppet masters than exploit lies to abuse us" thus all spiritual values lose their foundation. Then with commerce and migration of cultures people exchange values and traditions and thus people seeing other cultures as equally valid, lose faith in their own culture. As technology and economics advance and people rely more on gadgets and less on community, the sense of community wanes. The only values left are those of wealth. Thus even soldiers do not see themselves in patriotic terms or as representatives of God's will or the reputation of their proud culture and tradition, instead they see themselves as proletariat workers fighting for a pay check.
With the foundation of all values swept away' an Nietzsche said "God is dead" we need are left with no sense of purpose, no sense of higher community or spiritual connection on which to found virtue.
To rectify this situation is the primary purpose of the Law of Thelema, it restore spiritual values without having to rely on superstitions about men rising from the dead, or gods in other worlds that punish us, or the power of priests, or any other worlds. Thelema is grounded in sceptical method of science not in faith, and it's mandate is to grow and experiences for oneself, to learn from those experiences, to cultivate and develop your own virtues, so that you can perform that one task which you discover as your own and not be envious or resentful of others. Though willing to respect others who achieve their goals and to learn from them, to follow in their foot steps if need be. It develop in yourself pride and confidence in your abilities and your virtues, so that you would not debase yourself with vice, as per example being greedy or petty, or exploiting your role as soldier to rape and murder.
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Jim.
What is the IXth article in the "Oath of the Abyss"
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@Froclown said
"What is the IXth article in the "Oath of the Abyss""
(I think you mean the Oath of 8=3, not the Oath of the Abyss, which is different. Answering from that assumption:)
"That I will rely only upon myself."
Anticipating your argument: People who have attended my lectures on and off for the last 20-30 years have heard me mention many times that one of the chief things that changes, as one moves on through the Work, is one's understanding of what "self" means.
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@Froclown said
"Generally this is because the faith in the ruling class due to their corruption has shifted people to be suspicious of all authority"
Yes, be suspicious of authority! Good point!
@Froclown said
" Then with commerce and migration of cultures people exchange values and traditions and thus people seeing other cultures as equally valid, lose faith in their own culture. "
And what I want for Crowleymas this year is to see a lot of multi-colored babies!
@Froclown said
"With the foundation of all values swept away' an Nietzsche said "God is dead" we need are left with no sense of purpose, no sense of higher community or spiritual connection on which to found virtue."
And yet, what a very useful word/idea 'god' is. I use it all the time, and I don't really believe, or do I?
@Froclown said
"To rectify this situation is the primary purpose of the Law of Thelema, it restore spiritual values without having to rely on superstitions about men rising from the dead, or gods in other worlds that punish us, or the power of priests, or any other worlds. Thelema is grounded in sceptical method of science not in faith, and it's mandate is to grow and experiences for oneself, to learn from those experiences, to cultivate and develop your own virtues, so that you can perform that one task which you discover as your own and not be envious or resentful of others. Though willing to respect others who achieve their goals and to learn from them, to follow in their foot steps if need be. It develop in yourself pride and confidence in your abilities and your virtues, so that you would not debase yourself with vice, as per example being greedy or petty, or exploiting your role as soldier to rape and murder."
God, or the devil is in the details. Your standing on a big rock and giving the lecture about how life could be oh so much better under the Thelemic banner is not going to make people think or act any differently than they do.
Love and Will
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That is why we we have to develop Thelemic communities with schools and stronger institutions like EGC churches that do work in the community and express Thelemic values in action not just in words. Organise Thelemic companies that exist for the purpose of supporting the needs of the workers so they can perform their own Will, rather than the modern economic goal of money for money sake, demanding infinite growth and imposing products on people who don't need them. Thelemic militias than teach honour and virtues and protect the welfare of the Thelemic community and the ability of each individual to perform their natural function, for it's own sake not for the sake of making money. Thelemic institutions to promote art, science, literature, for the sake of promoting cultural values and traditions, not degeneracy and not artists selling out to the liberal modernist system to make money.
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@Froclown said
"That is why we we have to develop Thelemic communities with schools and stronger institutions like EGC churches that do work in the community and express Thelemic values in action not just in words. Organise Thelemic companies that exist for the purpose of supporting the needs of the workers so they can perform their own Will, rather than the modern economic goal of money for money sake, demanding infinite growth and imposing products on people who don't need them. Thelemic militias than teach honour and virtues and protect the welfare of the Thelemic community and the ability of each individual to perform their natural function, for it's own sake not for the sake of making money. Thelemic institutions to promote art, science, literature, for the sake of promoting cultural values and traditions, not degeneracy and not artists selling out to the liberal modernist system to make money."
Be at ease. We don't need to do jack! We just need to do what Joseph Cambell would describe as 'following your bliss.' Now I stick my fingers in my ears.
Love and Will
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right and that is why Joseph Smith has a whole army of Mormons in Utah and all oven the world even one running for president and people who read Joseph Campbell and sit around blissfully shoving their fingers into their ears, have nothing to show for it, and have never been considered for president of anything.
If thelemites sit around following their bliss, and not taking effective actions we will just fade away or remain a small fringe group. The Catholic church did not rise to power by Christians sitting on their thumbs and blissing out. Alexander did not spread his ideals by sitting at home in the dark, he went out and conquered the world and set his ideals into action, by the way he ruled the nations.
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What I want to see.
Everywhere you see a sign or a flag or a banner today, that has a cross on it, I want to see a Hexagram or an OTO Lamen.
I want to see people get up at dawn to do morning Rest instead of Tai-chi in Tienamin square.
I want to see OTO or a similar Thelemic order running all the major businesses, under a new economic model that in human centric not money-centric.
I want to see cities designed to save energy and use everything and every individual efficiently according to their nature and Will.
I want to see organic permaculture farming, with produce stamped with a Thelemic symbol.
I want to see people not acting as strangers who have to live near by, but as a true community of brothers and sisters.
I want to see Child specific education programs run my Thelemic schools that help each child learn discipline and focus, and teach how to develop your own skills.
I want strong thelemic communities, that display openly their affiliation and beliefs, their virtues and superiority over the Christian-liberal communities of the slave Gods. With it's merchants and militias marching confidently under the banner of the Sun, to go forth and do their Will proud and unrestrained by strict laws, self restrained by their honour and respect for the King who is the embodiment of Thelemic tradition and civil community. -
@Froclown said
"What I want to see.
Everywhere you see a sign or a flag or a banner today, that has a cross on it, I want to see a Hexagram or an OTO Lamen. "
As a reminder: This forum has nothing to do with O.T.O. (except that some forum members happen also to be O.T.O. members.) Please do not use this forum to propagandize for a separate, unrelated organization. (First advisory.)
If you want to see a hexagram everyplace you go, you might move to Israel - you could have that now.
"I want to see people get up at dawn to do morning Rest instead of Tai-chi in Tienamin square."
Tai-chi is healthier (Besides, it's not inherently un-Thelemic. Also besides: One could do both.)