93/93: Basic Elemental Concepts
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As Above; So Below can be seen in the Elemental Attributes.
"SO BELOW"
Microcosmic reality can be understood through Spirit and the 4 elements.
Pentagram Attributions
- Upper-Left Point
- Upper-Center Point
- Upper-Right Point
- Lower-Right Point
- Lower-Left Point
Elemental Attributions
- Air
- Spirit
- Water
- Fire
- Earth
The Perfect Man/Woman
- The Genitals
- The Breast
- Hips
- Legs
- The Buttocks
The Magical Weapons
- Sword
- Lamp
- Cup
- Wand (note: your Oath is the wand's Name)
- Pentacle
Liber AL Attributes
- Through the second, gold. CH 3; 65
- Yet to all it shall seem beautiful. Its enemies who say not so, are mere liars. CH 3; 68
- Through the third, stones of precious water. CH 3; 66
- Through the fourth, ultimate sparks of the intimate fire. CH 3; 67
- Let him come through the first ordeal, & it will be to him as silver. CH 3; 64
"AS ABOVE"
Macrocosmic reality can be understood through Spirit and the 4 elements.
The Aeons
- Christianity
- Thelema
- Judaism
- Hinduism
- Islam
Liber Porta Lucis
20.The many change and pass; the one remains. Even as wood and coal and iron burn up together in one great flame, if only that furnace be of transcendent heat; so in the alembic of this spiritual alchemy, if only the zelator blow sufficiently upon his furnace all the systems of earth are consumed in the One Knowledge.
21.Nevertheless, as a fire cannot be started with iron alone, in the beginning one system may be suited for one seeker, another for another.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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93,
I'm sure this means a lot to you. But if you step back from your handiwork, you'd see much of it is available in any beginner's book on magick, such as the elemental attributions of the pentagram. And some of it I find incomprehensible. What, for example does:
"The Aeons
- Christianity
- Thelema
- Judaism
- Hinduism
- Islam
Liber Porta Lucis"
mean, exactly? I'm asking that in the sense of "What impact might this list have on my own understanding of reality?"
It's clear you have some personal system you're working out. But it's easy to find patterns in magick - it's all based on pattern and correspondence to begin with. Some things might be better kept in your magical diary until they prove their ability to bring about inner change over time, or show that they're just momentarily pleasing compilations of random info.93 93/93,
Edward -
@Edward Mason said
"93,
I'm sure this means a lot to you. But if you step back from your handiwork, you'd see much of it is available in any beginner's book on magick, such as the elemental attributions of the pentagram. And some of it I find incomprehensible. What, for example does:
"The Aeons
- Christianity
- Thelema
- Judaism
- Hinduism
- Islam
Liber Porta Lucis"
mean, exactly? I'm asking that in the sense of "What impact might this list have on my own understanding of reality?"
It's clear you have some personal system you're working out. But it's easy to find patterns in magick - it's all based on pattern and correspondence to begin with. Some things might be better kept in your magical diary until they prove their ability to bring about inner change over time, or show that they're just momentarily pleasing compilations of random info.93 93/93,
Edward"Edward,
I think this is a very important and cogent response on your part. And not just to the original post in this thread, but to many others as well—mostly under this Qabalah heading. I have been thinking a lot about the motivations behind mine and many other posters, especially when it comes to 'suggestive revelations' that seemingly lead nowhere. I have been contemplating starting a new thread on this. What is the value of sharing what appears on the face of things to be random musings on numbers and associations?
I do see the value in this kind of exegesis, but I question the need to post very musing, unless the poster goes the distance and justifies it with good argument, grounded in the priciples of logic, and expressed in plain English.
Thank you!
Love and Will
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Revelations, realizations, and all the rest happen all the time when one starts a new level of the work. Therefore, most of them are approximately as valuable as one breath in comparison to the prior one.
With people working directly under me, I'll initially listen to these on the basis that they seem to have something they want to tell me, but this quickly moves to "just put it in the diary." This is for many reasons. One is that over 99% of them are only of value to the person who has them, and usually only for a passing moment in time. Secondly, the reasons for communicating them is often a need for ego-validation ("I'm getting cool revelatory stuff! Yay!!!!"), and it would be wrong of me to encourage this.
Third - and this is the most important - they are usually an intermediate step in some ongoing process. The process shouldn't be interrupted by premature acknowwledgement or even discussion, because it's an intrapsychic process. (For the same reason, under most conditions it's a disservice to a student to permit them to hand in a diary "as they go along" rather than saving it up for the end of their grade, because the cycle of their processes haven't completed yet - the real intrapsychic maturation would be interrupted or distorted, in most cases, from any slightest hint that someone else is participating in the "management" or "oversight" of their ongoing revelations.)
Over the last 35+ years, I've had all sorts of "breakthroughs" and "revelations" and "great discoveries." My deepest wish is that whoever might read my diaries in the future doesn't take most of them seriously. They were important to have, important to record, and important to shut up about (which, in more cases than not, I managed to do <g>).
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93 93/93
@ Edward
I just assumed people would have an understanding of Qabbalah. I understand that most of this info is basic. I included it to give a reference point to the "aeons". I assumed if a person knew the basic elemental attributes, they could understand the Religous systems associated with that element.
For example if you equate the Macrocosmic element of AIR with Christianity, it allows you to better understand the relationship between Christianity and other religious beliefs.This isn't something I just learned.
Thelemic cosmology is clear that all major religious beliefs originated through the A.'.A.'.. It also makes clear to the Zelator that all these systems are bound together. So what does this mean? This is the question I was trying to address.
Whatever conclusions someone draws is their business but I thought it would be useful since this is usually not addressed outside of Initiation.
@ Jim
I have been isolated from the thelemic community for a long time. When I first joined this site, I posted things in an attempt to show how my mind works. I wanted quality advice and felt I would not get it if I didn't prove I was serious.
Then I came to a realization that i don't understand squat even though I "know" a lot. So I decided to post some of the basic concepts of Thelema because I assumed that not everyone who visits this site is an adept. This site seems to attract new Thelemites so I thought this could be helpful.
But now I wonder how beneficial this is. I need to think of how I use this site and maybe adjust my approach.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Secondly, the reasons for communicating them is often a need for ego-validation ("I'm getting cool revelatory stuff! Yay!!!!"), and it would be wrong of me to encourage this.
"I'm curious about this point. Should the impulse to draw attention to yourself be suppressed? Or is it like farting, holding it in can be damaging, so better to let it rip. Ultimately I suppose showing off is little more than another distraction, but who can be so simple and remain only focused on ones own work? When one has a good day, or something goes better than planned, it's hard not to feel even a little pleased with oneself.
I've tried both, being quiet and not so quiet. Sometimes this sharing is an experiment where I am able to watch myself, and then try to asses its value, or lack thereof. Sometimes I catch myself believing my own hype, but only after I acted a complete fool. Admittedly, such judgments are relative; and frankly, you haven't lived until you've wished you could undo/un-say something really stupid—probably a third point consideration if only one has the perspective to appreciate it as such.
Thanks for the considered and extensive reply.
Love and Will
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93,
Frater Allashalla wrote:
"For example if you equate the Macrocosmic element of AIR with Christianity, it allows you to better understand the relationship between Christianity and other religious beliefs.This isn't something I just learned."
I honestly don't know what this paragraph means. Nor, probably, does that matter. The responses you're getting here are largely about the fact that in this Aeon, revelation is personal, not broad-based. Assuming that something discovered by or revealed to oneself is relevant to lots of other people is primarily an Old Aeon perspective.
"Thus ye have star & star, system & system; let one not know well the other!"93 93/93,
Edward -
@Edward Mason said
"93,
Frater Allashalla wrote:
"For example if you equate the Macrocosmic element of AIR with Christianity, it allows you to better understand the relationship between Christianity and other religious beliefs.This isn't something I just learned."
I honestly don't know what this paragraph means. Nor, probably, does that matter. The responses you're getting here are largely about the fact that in this Aeon, revelation is personal, not broad-based. Assuming that something discovered by or revealed to oneself is relevant to lots of other people is primarily an Old Aeon perspective.
"Thus ye have star & star, system & system; let one not know well the other!"93 93/93,
Edward"Well, I personally have found that a teacher is helpful...by book, web-site, or in person. I tried for years and years to go alone. It seemed to work until I started to expose myself to various peoples ideas. Then I realized I had some serious blind spots I would had remained ignorant of had I not opened myself up to being taught.
As for this little composite I wrote. I don't consider this a revelation since the majority of the info is readily available if you look.
I think there has to be a gray area in this "star and star" don't you think? Otherwise we should eliminate all Outer Orders, the A.'.A.'., and burn every book written on magick and mysticism
And what is unethical about wanting to contribute information to this website? Considering that this is a front for the College of Thelema I would think sharing and learning from each other would be encouraged
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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93,
"And what is unethical about wanting to contribute information to this website? Considering that this is a front for the College of Thelema I would think sharing and learning from each other would be encouraged"
Nothing unethical at all here. But you didn't indicate where that particular list of religions originated, nor why Christianity would be attributed specifically to Macrocosmic Air, nor why you didn't list Buddhism, and what Liber Porta Lucis is doing there ... and so on. It's not "wrong," just idiosyncratic head-stuff. Knowing information is important primarily so that we have a tool-box available later, when the inner motion gets under way. And I think that's what you might be missing.
93 93/93,
Edward -
93,
RobertAllen wrote:
"I've tried both, being quiet and not so quiet. Sometimes this sharing is an experiment where I am able to watch myself, and then try to asses its value, or lack thereof. Sometimes I catch myself believing my own hype, but only after I acted a complete fool. Admittedly, such judgments are relative; and frankly, you haven't lived until you've wished you could undo/un-say something really stupid—probably a third point consideration if only one has the perspective to appreciate it as such."
Sure, that's part of the dynamics of a site like this. I look at anything I say to see what it says to me, as much as to anyone else. And stupidity is always one of the great teachers!
It's often been said that embarrassment is one of the key moments when our truths are revealed. Though that's partly because, I think, we're unveiling truths about ourselves that, if we look at them with real honesty, are nowhere near as awful or wrong as we might think. We just feel uncomfortable going that far from our agreed-on safe-zones.
93 93/93,
Edward -
93 93/93
@Edward Mason said
"93,
"And what is unethical about wanting to contribute information to this website? Considering that this is a front for the College of Thelema I would think sharing and learning from each other would be encouraged"Nothing unethical at all here. But you didn't indicate where that particular list of religions originated, nor why Christianity would be attributed specifically to Macrocosmic Air, nor why you didn't list Buddhism, and what Liber Porta Lucis is doing there ... and so on. It's not "wrong," just idiosyncratic head-stuff. Knowing information is important primarily so that we have a tool-box available later, when the inner motion gets under way. And I think that's what you might be missing.
93 93/93,
Edward"The quote from Liber Porta Lucis explains itself.
As for Buddhism: I didn't list all the religions....only examples of religious types...
I am not asking anyone to "agree" with me. But the information shouldn't be that hard to "understand" if a person has even a basic concept of Qabbalah. Just like all the other attributes I listed, the religious types can be arranged according to the pentagram. Therefore, since air is associated with a location on the pentagram, the associated religious type has some relation to that particular element. The obvious one is Thelema. It can be equated to SPIRIT which serves to bind and direct the 4 elements. So just a few minutes of thought about Thelema and its relationship to other religious types shows this same principle seen with Spirit and the 4 elements.
It seems obvious to me what I was saying. It doesn't matter if you agree. I just cant believe you don't understand what I am communicating. I have a suspicion that you just glanced at the material and didn't really attempt to understand.
But its all good.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"I am not asking anyone to "agree" with me. But the information shouldn't be that hard to "understand" if a person has even a basic concept of Qabbalah."
I was pretty lost.
"It seems obvious to me what I was saying."
That's kinda the point we've been making: It's not so much about Qabalah per se, as it is about how your head is wired at present.
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I think the main lesson in all this is that it is possibly interesting for some to look at other people's babies - but they usually aren't as cute as the parents think they are. When it comes to these revelations, isn't it more in line with Nu Aeon directions to teach how one comes to such revelations? So when looking at books, and outer orders, etc... that's what we expect and what we find, not other men's babies but other men's methods of making babies. Don't throw the bath water out with the babies on that one.
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93,
@Takamba said
"I think the main lesson in all this is that it is possibly interesting for some to look at other people's babies - but they usually aren't as cute as the parents think they are. When it comes to these revelations, isn't it more in line with Nu Aeon directions to teach how one comes to such revelations? So when looking at books, and outer orders, etc... that's what we expect and what we find, not other men's babies but other men's methods of making babies. Don't throw the bath water out with the babies on that one.
"That's a pretty great way of summing up the conclusions of this thread, from my humble POV! At the same time, ALLAShALLA's initial post in this thread was also the spark from which some important thought and discussion was put forth. I'm realizing that's the great thing about these forums -- often they seem to function similarly to an individual's thought-process: There's a spark of inspiration, followed by various arguments for or against it as it is analyzed by various thoughtstreams, from different angles. Eventually through the process there is occasionally a resolution, though not always the resolution at first anticipated or implied. (Sorry if this sounds too convoluted
)93 93/93.
AL H-ShMATh
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93 93/93
Well, it is apparent that what I posted made no sense. To be honest, I don't really know what to make of this
I have been studying the Qabbalah for 20 years. The Qabbalah is the structure I hang everything onto. It all seems so perfect and complete to me. And yet people have posted on this thread that know way more than me who don't have a clue what I am talking about.
I dont know what this means to me or to my world view. I am getting the impression that Qabbalah is all subjective. So for instance, does it matter if I use the magickal weapon, The Cup, as a symbol of the element of fire?
How do I construct the magickal pentagram if all its attributes are just subjective? How do I make sense of the symbols within the Initiation if everything is subjective. Wouldn't I only be getting the reality of the person who created the ritual? What about the Holy Books? Should I just assume that even the upper triad is subjective and thus I should treat the HB like any other great piece of writing? How do I learn and communicate if all symbols are arbitrary?
My final question is when does this end? Do I eventually obtain Kether and find when I reach that state that its all subjective; that there is no absolute truth? If so whats the purpose of all this hard work. I could get the same subjective reality by being a Christian and not even have to do much work
These are serious questions I have
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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Fra. ALLAShALLA, 93
This is not meant to be patronizing or "teaching", but is on point with your last post, and I happened to reread it recently...
From Chapter 28 "Need to Define "God" & "Self", in Magick Without Tears:""As you travel inward, you become able to perceive all the layers which surround the "Self" from within, thus enlarging the scope of your vision of the Universe. It is like moving from a skirmishing patrol to G.H.Q.; and the object of so doing is obviously to exercise constantly increasing control over the whole Army. Every step in rank enables you both to see more and to do more; but one's attention is inevitably directed outward.""
hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_28.html
Please take this as a friendly gesture, that I think reading this chapter might give perspective. Again, not "teaching," it just struck a chord and thought this might ring true for you as well
AL H-ShMATh
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"I am getting the impression that Qabbalah is all subjective."
I would say it's primarily objective (in practice if not in actuality); but your relationship to it is, well, a relationship, and so it has highly subjective aspects.
There are universally agreed upon elements. Either in and of themselves (as a consequence, perhaps, of the hard wiring of the human genome), or as a consequence of mass adoption, a large block of "basics" are usually best treated as more or less universal. However, the individual relationship to this determines a lot of things.
Take a chemical analogy: Ritalin has one effect if a person is hyperactive, and another (essentially opposite) effect if he or she is not. Information works the same way - but, in this case, you're talking about the language of your subconscious mind.
And the "more or less universal" does not prevent someone from endeavoring to construct their own system from the ground up. In that case, though, they need to more or less isolate themselves from everyone else, just as if they were using the same words as in their native language, but using them to mean quite different things. (Using some USA slang in, say, Australia can be very embarassing at the least, and lead to significant miscommunication as well.) - If you cut yourself off from the mass-species relationship to these ideas, then you're "on your own," which is neither good nor bad in itself - but would surely result in the mass-mind resisting and expelling you as it would a disease. (Which, also, is neither good nor bad in itself.)
"So for instance, does it matter if I use the magical weapon, The Cup, as a symbol of the element of fire?"
Yeah. It matters.
"How do I construct the magical pentagram if all its attributes are just subjective?"
The point attributions are essentially universal in application. How to use those points will vary from tradition to tradition. We actually considered applying a different theory when founding Temple of Thelema, but thought it more important to preserve what people eventually would encounter in A.'.A.'. literature - solely for continuity sake. There is a part of this that is habitual wiring within yourself so that the astral responds as required.
"How do I make sense of the symbols within the Initiation if everything is subjective."
The mistake is "make sense of." Symbols are meant to be read directly by subconsciousness, not translated into rational langjuage as a substitute. If the initiation ritual is rightly crafted, it will speak directly to subconsciousness. Beyond that, if there are any distinctive usages in the system in which you are initiated, you need to learn those from your initiators.
"How do I learn and communicate if all symbols are arbitrary?"
As already mentioned... it isn't.
"My final question is when does this end? Do I eventually obtain Kether and find when I reach that state that its all subjective; that there is no absolute truth?"
The meaning of "truth" changes as you move through the layers. This doesn't mean it's false at all, just that each grade represents a different way that you can hear and understand things. - You might get some idea of this by reading Liber Magi.
I've often said - and mean it - that since truth is incommunicable, the real duty of a Hierophant is to discover which lies are most effective for bringing someone to truth.
"If so whats the purpose of all this hard work."
Well, aside from anything I've written above, hard work has a virtrue all its own.
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93 93/93
@ JIm
I understand everything you said in your last post. These are things I believe at the core of my being.
But honestly, I didn't hear the same message in the other posts.
So what it boils down to is that truth is objective from my perspective, but subjective to those above and below me on the Tree(if I miss-understood plz tell me). I came to terms with this a long time ago...as how I classify the world has changed many times...even as a child I experienced this.
The question I still have is how do I separate the universal from my personal understanding in order to communicate? Or should I not communicate about the sacred?
I am only trying to understand my relationship to other Thelemites. As I said before, I was isolated from the Thelemic community (basically the world as well) from 1994-2001. I was living in the Brush so rarely saw anyone.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"So what it boils down to is that truth is objective from my perspective, but subjective to those above and below me on the Tree(if I miss-understood plz tell me)."
If I were using that language, I'd have put it the opposite: Truth is objective, but subjective in your experience of it. (That's no different than saying that a rock has certain objective characteristics, but every person's experience of that rock is subjective.)
"The question I still have is how do I separate the universal from my personal understanding in order to communicate? Or should I not communicate about the sacred?"
One option is to identify those terms, symbols, attributions, etc. that already have been codified and standardized, and rely on them for your communication UNLESS you need to define distinctive "language" for a particular occasion.
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93,
Truth is relative.
But that's a matter of perspective.
Love is the law, love under will.