93/93: Basic Elemental Concepts
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93,
@Takamba said
"I think the main lesson in all this is that it is possibly interesting for some to look at other people's babies - but they usually aren't as cute as the parents think they are. When it comes to these revelations, isn't it more in line with Nu Aeon directions to teach how one comes to such revelations? So when looking at books, and outer orders, etc... that's what we expect and what we find, not other men's babies but other men's methods of making babies. Don't throw the bath water out with the babies on that one.
"That's a pretty great way of summing up the conclusions of this thread, from my humble POV! At the same time, ALLAShALLA's initial post in this thread was also the spark from which some important thought and discussion was put forth. I'm realizing that's the great thing about these forums -- often they seem to function similarly to an individual's thought-process: There's a spark of inspiration, followed by various arguments for or against it as it is analyzed by various thoughtstreams, from different angles. Eventually through the process there is occasionally a resolution, though not always the resolution at first anticipated or implied. (Sorry if this sounds too convoluted
)93 93/93.
AL H-ShMATh
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93 93/93
Well, it is apparent that what I posted made no sense. To be honest, I don't really know what to make of this
I have been studying the Qabbalah for 20 years. The Qabbalah is the structure I hang everything onto. It all seems so perfect and complete to me. And yet people have posted on this thread that know way more than me who don't have a clue what I am talking about.
I dont know what this means to me or to my world view. I am getting the impression that Qabbalah is all subjective. So for instance, does it matter if I use the magickal weapon, The Cup, as a symbol of the element of fire?
How do I construct the magickal pentagram if all its attributes are just subjective? How do I make sense of the symbols within the Initiation if everything is subjective. Wouldn't I only be getting the reality of the person who created the ritual? What about the Holy Books? Should I just assume that even the upper triad is subjective and thus I should treat the HB like any other great piece of writing? How do I learn and communicate if all symbols are arbitrary?
My final question is when does this end? Do I eventually obtain Kether and find when I reach that state that its all subjective; that there is no absolute truth? If so whats the purpose of all this hard work. I could get the same subjective reality by being a Christian and not even have to do much work
These are serious questions I have
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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Fra. ALLAShALLA, 93
This is not meant to be patronizing or "teaching", but is on point with your last post, and I happened to reread it recently...
From Chapter 28 "Need to Define "God" & "Self", in Magick Without Tears:""As you travel inward, you become able to perceive all the layers which surround the "Self" from within, thus enlarging the scope of your vision of the Universe. It is like moving from a skirmishing patrol to G.H.Q.; and the object of so doing is obviously to exercise constantly increasing control over the whole Army. Every step in rank enables you both to see more and to do more; but one's attention is inevitably directed outward.""
hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_28.html
Please take this as a friendly gesture, that I think reading this chapter might give perspective. Again, not "teaching," it just struck a chord and thought this might ring true for you as well
AL H-ShMATh
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"I am getting the impression that Qabbalah is all subjective."
I would say it's primarily objective (in practice if not in actuality); but your relationship to it is, well, a relationship, and so it has highly subjective aspects.
There are universally agreed upon elements. Either in and of themselves (as a consequence, perhaps, of the hard wiring of the human genome), or as a consequence of mass adoption, a large block of "basics" are usually best treated as more or less universal. However, the individual relationship to this determines a lot of things.
Take a chemical analogy: Ritalin has one effect if a person is hyperactive, and another (essentially opposite) effect if he or she is not. Information works the same way - but, in this case, you're talking about the language of your subconscious mind.
And the "more or less universal" does not prevent someone from endeavoring to construct their own system from the ground up. In that case, though, they need to more or less isolate themselves from everyone else, just as if they were using the same words as in their native language, but using them to mean quite different things. (Using some USA slang in, say, Australia can be very embarassing at the least, and lead to significant miscommunication as well.) - If you cut yourself off from the mass-species relationship to these ideas, then you're "on your own," which is neither good nor bad in itself - but would surely result in the mass-mind resisting and expelling you as it would a disease. (Which, also, is neither good nor bad in itself.)
"So for instance, does it matter if I use the magical weapon, The Cup, as a symbol of the element of fire?"
Yeah. It matters.
"How do I construct the magical pentagram if all its attributes are just subjective?"
The point attributions are essentially universal in application. How to use those points will vary from tradition to tradition. We actually considered applying a different theory when founding Temple of Thelema, but thought it more important to preserve what people eventually would encounter in A.'.A.'. literature - solely for continuity sake. There is a part of this that is habitual wiring within yourself so that the astral responds as required.
"How do I make sense of the symbols within the Initiation if everything is subjective."
The mistake is "make sense of." Symbols are meant to be read directly by subconsciousness, not translated into rational langjuage as a substitute. If the initiation ritual is rightly crafted, it will speak directly to subconsciousness. Beyond that, if there are any distinctive usages in the system in which you are initiated, you need to learn those from your initiators.
"How do I learn and communicate if all symbols are arbitrary?"
As already mentioned... it isn't.
"My final question is when does this end? Do I eventually obtain Kether and find when I reach that state that its all subjective; that there is no absolute truth?"
The meaning of "truth" changes as you move through the layers. This doesn't mean it's false at all, just that each grade represents a different way that you can hear and understand things. - You might get some idea of this by reading Liber Magi.
I've often said - and mean it - that since truth is incommunicable, the real duty of a Hierophant is to discover which lies are most effective for bringing someone to truth.
"If so whats the purpose of all this hard work."
Well, aside from anything I've written above, hard work has a virtrue all its own.
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93 93/93
@ JIm
I understand everything you said in your last post. These are things I believe at the core of my being.
But honestly, I didn't hear the same message in the other posts.
So what it boils down to is that truth is objective from my perspective, but subjective to those above and below me on the Tree(if I miss-understood plz tell me). I came to terms with this a long time ago...as how I classify the world has changed many times...even as a child I experienced this.
The question I still have is how do I separate the universal from my personal understanding in order to communicate? Or should I not communicate about the sacred?
I am only trying to understand my relationship to other Thelemites. As I said before, I was isolated from the Thelemic community (basically the world as well) from 1994-2001. I was living in the Brush so rarely saw anyone.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"So what it boils down to is that truth is objective from my perspective, but subjective to those above and below me on the Tree(if I miss-understood plz tell me)."
If I were using that language, I'd have put it the opposite: Truth is objective, but subjective in your experience of it. (That's no different than saying that a rock has certain objective characteristics, but every person's experience of that rock is subjective.)
"The question I still have is how do I separate the universal from my personal understanding in order to communicate? Or should I not communicate about the sacred?"
One option is to identify those terms, symbols, attributions, etc. that already have been codified and standardized, and rely on them for your communication UNLESS you need to define distinctive "language" for a particular occasion.
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93,
Truth is relative.
But that's a matter of perspective.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Frater ALLAShALLA
I should probably keep my mouth shut, but keeping silent has never come easily to me. If I offend, please keep in mind that I'm just trying to help.
It seems to me that your logic and communication skills are hurting you. In short, your thought lacks rigor! It's that simple. Superficially this has nothing to do with the Qabalah, or Thelemic philosophy, or Magick, or Mystical experiences. On the other hand it has everything to do with participation on a public forum.
We all struggle with communication. Some of us have to struggle more than others. As I see it you have two options. The first is the one you initially embraced a few posts back when you despaired of being able to communicate, and the other is the option being suggested by Jim and Edward.
@Jim Eshelman said
"One option is to identify those terms, symbols, attributions, etc. that already have been codified and standardized, and rely on them for your communication UNLESS you need to define distinctive "language" for a particular occasion."
I have a few specific suggestions. These are notes to myself as much as they are directed at you.
- don't use technical language from the Qabalah, learn to translate that type of insight back into regular English, and then see if it makes sense. As it stands, your use of this jargon is not smart, it is non-specific, idiosyncratic, hermetic (the bad kind of hermetic), gobble-de-gook. There may be something valid behind your expression, but how are we to know?
- don't use phrases like "science has proved" unless you have the concrete example at your fingertips to back up any challenges. I have looked your posts and you have a bad habit of trying to invoke authority by some such device. This is just another place where you think and express yourself in generalities, which account for very little when all is said and done; and rather than honing your powers of discernment, dulls them. If you want to be an authority then be prepared to defend it with facts.
- be clear about what you hope to achieve by every gesture and action, especially when posting to a public forum like this one. Avoid vague answers to this question—it's not good enough to say mushy, general things like: "I want to communicate truth." There has to be something more pointed, pressing, and focused behind your actions or you will fall into the trap of thinking nice, warm thoughts about your intentions, whereas the truth may actually surprise you.
I'm not going to lie to you: I find your posts annoying. I'm not going to lie to myself either: I find your posts annoying because I see a lot of myself in them.
See, this post is an example of letting it rip. Now I can watch and see what happens, maybe learn something.
Love and Will
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@Robert
I am not offended in the least.
"don't use phrases like "science has proved" unless you have the concrete example at your fingertips to back up any challenges. "
Your quote describes a practice that isn't practical on this site. For instance, I know that Quantum Physics has shattered the illusion of chaos. But to describe what I mean in such a way to sway others who have their mind made up is a waste of effort. First, I would be writing 30-40 page technical essays on a regular basis. And even if I do that I am not going to change a person's paradigm. I have seen this many times in others and in myself. Paradigms don't fall that easy.
It is easier for me to present ideas in a philosophical format. This excludes the "specifics" you think I lack. It is intentional.
I have decided to quit posting as much on this website. I think it better to just mind my own business and just try to understand others....whether I believe them or not. Therefore I avoid conflict, confusion, and looking like an idiot. This pains me a bunch because I really enjoy debating ideas with others who know how to think.
I guess I should just take a college course or something to get this comradeship.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"Your quote describes a practice that isn't practical on this site. For instance, I know that Quantum Physics has shattered the illusion of chaos. But to describe what I mean in such a way to sway others who have their mind made up is a waste of effort. First, I would be writing 30-40 page technical essays on a regular basis. And even if I do that I am not going to change a person's paradigm. I have seen this many times in others and in myself."
Suit yourself. Sticking by your guns can be both good and bad. But I'll just point out that many people on this forum seem to able to make their point without writing unwieldy essays. I honestly don't think you need to write a technical paper, just point people to available online resources if it supports your position. For example, I actually read up on randomness and quantum physics before responding to the thread in General. I was satisfied that the research I did referenced a recent article that was fairly objective.
Agree to disagree?
Love and Will
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@Robert
I agree.
@Robert and everyone else who posted.
I have thought about these things all day. Here is the reality for me:
I respect Thelema.
I respect the A.'.A.'.
I respect the leadership of all true lineages of the A.'.A.'.
I respect the effort it requires to "know thyself" and to work the grades of the A.'.A.'. under the leadership of a true lineage.Therefore:
I never want to interfere with what is going on within this website.
I never want to disrespect the A.'.A.'., its leadership, or its aspirants.
I never want to interfere with anyone's Will...especially people who are just starting on the path.So I think its best to "shut my mouth" for awhile and listen. Silence never hurt anyone. I might comment to say I understand or I don't understand. I might ask for help since this site has given me so much already.Other than that what would my purpose be but to feed my ego? I can tell I have been wasting energy because of the way this whole issue has affected me.
So it is time for me to be silent. I need the practice anyway
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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I used to do this alot, I'd walk around boggling and jumbling all this stuff in mind. It all seemed so big and relevant at the moment, and I would always feel like I had figured out some super valuable conceptualization that nobody had ever conceived of before and that it was of utmost value. I think such things are valuable at least in those moments. But like any house of cards, they either stood or fell when put to the test of some practical application. I'd say a good 99% of it was useless nonsense but it was an important process becasue it showed that was at least thinking about things and getting the wheels turning.
These days my brain doesn't do it quite so much, and I'm mostly thankful for that because it sometimes indicates that I'm reading too much and practicing to little. -
@Alrah said
"[Basic Elemental Concepts]
When you work with elementals... you work with 'family'.
I really don't know how to stress to you the importance of this point.
In western magick there is a rather stupid attitude that is encouraged in new magicians - to treat elemental spirits as lacking in intellect/feeling/expression because of their freedom loving natures.
YOU are elemental. You have within your soul's manifestation a bond with all the elemental spirits of fire, aire, water and earth. You are affected by them. They are affected by you. In that sense, on a very elemental level, you are family manifest, and there is nothing they would deny you if only you remember your roots.
We are all more than we seem.
"To be honest, my nature is my nature. It isn't in my nature to treat any Elemental with disrespect. I haven't used or seen an Elemental . However, I grew up because of the land. My family was so poor we relied on our Garden and Hunting to eat. During the winter we heated with a wood stove. Because of this I was sawing and splitting wood since I could walk.
As a child I was allowed to wonder around. I lived in the country.I could walk for miles and miles and not see anyone. It was natural for me to love the earth and love nature.So I don't think Elementals will be a problem.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Alrah said
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"I haven't used or seen an Elemental."?
As a human being, you are made up of quite a substantial amount of Water.
You breath Air. The heat of your body is a type of Fire. And then there's all that Carbon (Earth). I suppose you could call them elemental forces and not personify them... (but where's the fun in that?)
"I have been in some remote places as an Archaeologist. Frequently I would have no electricity, no running water. These places always required packing in supplies. A lot of times the projects would last at least 6 months living in the wilderness. We would have our food dropped in or brought with ATVs. My crews, or the crews I was in usually had around 16 Archaeologist so it never was boring
Sometimes I would come face to face unexpectedly with animals.Occasionally I would experience a state of awareness were I saw the sacred.One example, I was working on a site in Kentucky. The site included 4 rock shelters (places some prehistoric peoples lived). But the only access was a narrow ledge along a large cliff. I was leading, being careful. As I slid around a curve in the cliff i came face to face with a Vulture standing on the ledge in front of me. He made this horrendous hissing noise and jumped back about 3 feet on this ledge. He landed and just stared at me. He was twitching and moving like a normal vulture, but his eyes where fixed to mine. It seemed like only an instant. Then he screeched at me and flew off. This was what I would call an Elemental experience. Because when these things happen, I feel like they are very elemental. It is like these beings have a very pure essence, a very clear understanding of their Will.
Anyway, profound encounters with animals happened to me a lot because of my job. Every time this would happen a thought would come to me that I understood why prehistoric peoples viewed these animals as sacred.
I view them as sacred.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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Just a small question from the town Idiot, how are we, who may be learning without the benefit of direct instruction, to know if we are on the right track if we don't post? It may be a revelation, it may be self delusion (I'm not speaking of this particular thread, but all threads, this one just seems to have become a little heated), it may be a personal revelation. I run with a blue collar crowd, such discussions are just beyond most of them, not for lack of intelect, but a lack of interest. I know I'm off point, but in my humble, uninitiated view, post away brother!! If nothing else I've learned a thing or two from the replies to your post. So I'll add , thanks.
in love and light,
Dominic -
@dominic said
"Just a small question from the town Idiot, how are we, who may be learning without the benefit of direct instruction, to know if we are on the right track if we don't post? It may be a revelation, it may be self delusion (I'm not speaking of this particular thread, but all threads, this one just seems to have become a little heated), it may be a personal revelation. I run with a blue collar crowd, such discussions are just beyond most of them, not for lack of intelect, but a lack of interest. I know I'm off point, but in my humble, uninitiated view, post away brother!! If nothing else I've learned a thing or two from the replies to your post. So I'll add , thanks.
in love and light,
Dominic"Don't look at the "results" as what is vital for discussion, but the methods of achieving those results. Sure, post away brother, post away - I simply recommend restructuring our ideas of what is valuable and what is not.
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@Takamba said
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@dominic said
"Just a small question from the town Idiot, how are we, who may be learning without the benefit of direct instruction, to know if we are on the right track if we don't post? It may be a revelation, it may be self delusion (I'm not speaking of this particular thread, but all threads, this one just seems to have become a little heated), it may be a personal revelation. I run with a blue collar crowd, such discussions are just beyond most of them, not for lack of intelect, but a lack of interest. I know I'm off point, but in my humble, uninitiated view, post away brother!! If nothing else I've learned a thing or two from the replies to your post. So I'll add , thanks.
in love and light,
Dominic"Don't look at the "results" as what is vital for discussion, but the methods of achieving those results. Sure, post away brother, post away - I simply recommend restructuring our ideas of what is valuable and what is not."
And still...
"Strive ever to more!"
I agree with Takamba, that you won't learn unless you act. And having acted, you then have to learn from it, or it's just as bad as not acting in the first instance. QBL (132) means 'to receive.' It is also related to another concept meaning 'to make waste.' I am assuming we all want to learn how to do the former, not the later. Sometimes the only way to get a handle on what is really happening is to share it with others. And what if the feedback is negative? Is that really such a bad thing? Maybe it has the potential to be constructive criticism...
Love and Will
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93 93/93
93 93/93"I agree with Takamba, that you won't learn unless you act. And having acted, you then have to learn from it, or it's just as bad as not acting in the first instance. QBL (132) means 'to receive.' It is also related to another concept meaning 'to make waste.' I am assuming we all want to learn how to do the former, not the later. Sometimes the only way to get a handle on what is really happening is to share it with others. And what if the feedback is negative? Is that really such a bad thing? Maybe it has the potential to be constructive criticism..."
I agree. Negative feedback is not intended to hurt but to help. If we always consider this as the first option when deciding someone motives who criticize us, we will learn and grow much easier
As a Man/Woman, we should have the maturation to hear TRUTH.
Otherwise we are not a Man/Woman.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.