93/93: Basic Elemental Concepts
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93 93/93
@ JIm
I understand everything you said in your last post. These are things I believe at the core of my being.
But honestly, I didn't hear the same message in the other posts.
So what it boils down to is that truth is objective from my perspective, but subjective to those above and below me on the Tree(if I miss-understood plz tell me). I came to terms with this a long time ago...as how I classify the world has changed many times...even as a child I experienced this.
The question I still have is how do I separate the universal from my personal understanding in order to communicate? Or should I not communicate about the sacred?
I am only trying to understand my relationship to other Thelemites. As I said before, I was isolated from the Thelemic community (basically the world as well) from 1994-2001. I was living in the Brush so rarely saw anyone.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"So what it boils down to is that truth is objective from my perspective, but subjective to those above and below me on the Tree(if I miss-understood plz tell me)."
If I were using that language, I'd have put it the opposite: Truth is objective, but subjective in your experience of it. (That's no different than saying that a rock has certain objective characteristics, but every person's experience of that rock is subjective.)
"The question I still have is how do I separate the universal from my personal understanding in order to communicate? Or should I not communicate about the sacred?"
One option is to identify those terms, symbols, attributions, etc. that already have been codified and standardized, and rely on them for your communication UNLESS you need to define distinctive "language" for a particular occasion.
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93,
Truth is relative.
But that's a matter of perspective.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Frater ALLAShALLA
I should probably keep my mouth shut, but keeping silent has never come easily to me. If I offend, please keep in mind that I'm just trying to help.
It seems to me that your logic and communication skills are hurting you. In short, your thought lacks rigor! It's that simple. Superficially this has nothing to do with the Qabalah, or Thelemic philosophy, or Magick, or Mystical experiences. On the other hand it has everything to do with participation on a public forum.
We all struggle with communication. Some of us have to struggle more than others. As I see it you have two options. The first is the one you initially embraced a few posts back when you despaired of being able to communicate, and the other is the option being suggested by Jim and Edward.
@Jim Eshelman said
"One option is to identify those terms, symbols, attributions, etc. that already have been codified and standardized, and rely on them for your communication UNLESS you need to define distinctive "language" for a particular occasion."
I have a few specific suggestions. These are notes to myself as much as they are directed at you.
- don't use technical language from the Qabalah, learn to translate that type of insight back into regular English, and then see if it makes sense. As it stands, your use of this jargon is not smart, it is non-specific, idiosyncratic, hermetic (the bad kind of hermetic), gobble-de-gook. There may be something valid behind your expression, but how are we to know?
- don't use phrases like "science has proved" unless you have the concrete example at your fingertips to back up any challenges. I have looked your posts and you have a bad habit of trying to invoke authority by some such device. This is just another place where you think and express yourself in generalities, which account for very little when all is said and done; and rather than honing your powers of discernment, dulls them. If you want to be an authority then be prepared to defend it with facts.
- be clear about what you hope to achieve by every gesture and action, especially when posting to a public forum like this one. Avoid vague answers to this question—it's not good enough to say mushy, general things like: "I want to communicate truth." There has to be something more pointed, pressing, and focused behind your actions or you will fall into the trap of thinking nice, warm thoughts about your intentions, whereas the truth may actually surprise you.
I'm not going to lie to you: I find your posts annoying. I'm not going to lie to myself either: I find your posts annoying because I see a lot of myself in them.
See, this post is an example of letting it rip. Now I can watch and see what happens, maybe learn something.
Love and Will
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@Robert
I am not offended in the least.
"don't use phrases like "science has proved" unless you have the concrete example at your fingertips to back up any challenges. "
Your quote describes a practice that isn't practical on this site. For instance, I know that Quantum Physics has shattered the illusion of chaos. But to describe what I mean in such a way to sway others who have their mind made up is a waste of effort. First, I would be writing 30-40 page technical essays on a regular basis. And even if I do that I am not going to change a person's paradigm. I have seen this many times in others and in myself. Paradigms don't fall that easy.
It is easier for me to present ideas in a philosophical format. This excludes the "specifics" you think I lack. It is intentional.
I have decided to quit posting as much on this website. I think it better to just mind my own business and just try to understand others....whether I believe them or not. Therefore I avoid conflict, confusion, and looking like an idiot. This pains me a bunch because I really enjoy debating ideas with others who know how to think.
I guess I should just take a college course or something to get this comradeship.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"Your quote describes a practice that isn't practical on this site. For instance, I know that Quantum Physics has shattered the illusion of chaos. But to describe what I mean in such a way to sway others who have their mind made up is a waste of effort. First, I would be writing 30-40 page technical essays on a regular basis. And even if I do that I am not going to change a person's paradigm. I have seen this many times in others and in myself."
Suit yourself. Sticking by your guns can be both good and bad. But I'll just point out that many people on this forum seem to able to make their point without writing unwieldy essays. I honestly don't think you need to write a technical paper, just point people to available online resources if it supports your position. For example, I actually read up on randomness and quantum physics before responding to the thread in General. I was satisfied that the research I did referenced a recent article that was fairly objective.
Agree to disagree?
Love and Will
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@Robert
I agree.
@Robert and everyone else who posted.
I have thought about these things all day. Here is the reality for me:
I respect Thelema.
I respect the A.'.A.'.
I respect the leadership of all true lineages of the A.'.A.'.
I respect the effort it requires to "know thyself" and to work the grades of the A.'.A.'. under the leadership of a true lineage.Therefore:
I never want to interfere with what is going on within this website.
I never want to disrespect the A.'.A.'., its leadership, or its aspirants.
I never want to interfere with anyone's Will...especially people who are just starting on the path.So I think its best to "shut my mouth" for awhile and listen. Silence never hurt anyone. I might comment to say I understand or I don't understand. I might ask for help since this site has given me so much already.Other than that what would my purpose be but to feed my ego? I can tell I have been wasting energy because of the way this whole issue has affected me.
So it is time for me to be silent. I need the practice anyway
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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I used to do this alot, I'd walk around boggling and jumbling all this stuff in mind. It all seemed so big and relevant at the moment, and I would always feel like I had figured out some super valuable conceptualization that nobody had ever conceived of before and that it was of utmost value. I think such things are valuable at least in those moments. But like any house of cards, they either stood or fell when put to the test of some practical application. I'd say a good 99% of it was useless nonsense but it was an important process becasue it showed that was at least thinking about things and getting the wheels turning.
These days my brain doesn't do it quite so much, and I'm mostly thankful for that because it sometimes indicates that I'm reading too much and practicing to little. -
@Alrah said
"[Basic Elemental Concepts]
When you work with elementals... you work with 'family'.
I really don't know how to stress to you the importance of this point.
In western magick there is a rather stupid attitude that is encouraged in new magicians - to treat elemental spirits as lacking in intellect/feeling/expression because of their freedom loving natures.
YOU are elemental. You have within your soul's manifestation a bond with all the elemental spirits of fire, aire, water and earth. You are affected by them. They are affected by you. In that sense, on a very elemental level, you are family manifest, and there is nothing they would deny you if only you remember your roots.
We are all more than we seem.
"To be honest, my nature is my nature. It isn't in my nature to treat any Elemental with disrespect. I haven't used or seen an Elemental . However, I grew up because of the land. My family was so poor we relied on our Garden and Hunting to eat. During the winter we heated with a wood stove. Because of this I was sawing and splitting wood since I could walk.
As a child I was allowed to wonder around. I lived in the country.I could walk for miles and miles and not see anyone. It was natural for me to love the earth and love nature.So I don't think Elementals will be a problem.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Alrah said
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@Frater ALLAShALLA said
"I haven't used or seen an Elemental."?
As a human being, you are made up of quite a substantial amount of Water.
You breath Air. The heat of your body is a type of Fire. And then there's all that Carbon (Earth). I suppose you could call them elemental forces and not personify them... (but where's the fun in that?)
"I have been in some remote places as an Archaeologist. Frequently I would have no electricity, no running water. These places always required packing in supplies. A lot of times the projects would last at least 6 months living in the wilderness. We would have our food dropped in or brought with ATVs. My crews, or the crews I was in usually had around 16 Archaeologist so it never was boring
Sometimes I would come face to face unexpectedly with animals.Occasionally I would experience a state of awareness were I saw the sacred.One example, I was working on a site in Kentucky. The site included 4 rock shelters (places some prehistoric peoples lived). But the only access was a narrow ledge along a large cliff. I was leading, being careful. As I slid around a curve in the cliff i came face to face with a Vulture standing on the ledge in front of me. He made this horrendous hissing noise and jumped back about 3 feet on this ledge. He landed and just stared at me. He was twitching and moving like a normal vulture, but his eyes where fixed to mine. It seemed like only an instant. Then he screeched at me and flew off. This was what I would call an Elemental experience. Because when these things happen, I feel like they are very elemental. It is like these beings have a very pure essence, a very clear understanding of their Will.
Anyway, profound encounters with animals happened to me a lot because of my job. Every time this would happen a thought would come to me that I understood why prehistoric peoples viewed these animals as sacred.
I view them as sacred.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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Just a small question from the town Idiot, how are we, who may be learning without the benefit of direct instruction, to know if we are on the right track if we don't post? It may be a revelation, it may be self delusion (I'm not speaking of this particular thread, but all threads, this one just seems to have become a little heated), it may be a personal revelation. I run with a blue collar crowd, such discussions are just beyond most of them, not for lack of intelect, but a lack of interest. I know I'm off point, but in my humble, uninitiated view, post away brother!! If nothing else I've learned a thing or two from the replies to your post. So I'll add , thanks.
in love and light,
Dominic -
@dominic said
"Just a small question from the town Idiot, how are we, who may be learning without the benefit of direct instruction, to know if we are on the right track if we don't post? It may be a revelation, it may be self delusion (I'm not speaking of this particular thread, but all threads, this one just seems to have become a little heated), it may be a personal revelation. I run with a blue collar crowd, such discussions are just beyond most of them, not for lack of intelect, but a lack of interest. I know I'm off point, but in my humble, uninitiated view, post away brother!! If nothing else I've learned a thing or two from the replies to your post. So I'll add , thanks.
in love and light,
Dominic"Don't look at the "results" as what is vital for discussion, but the methods of achieving those results. Sure, post away brother, post away - I simply recommend restructuring our ideas of what is valuable and what is not.
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@Takamba said
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@dominic said
"Just a small question from the town Idiot, how are we, who may be learning without the benefit of direct instruction, to know if we are on the right track if we don't post? It may be a revelation, it may be self delusion (I'm not speaking of this particular thread, but all threads, this one just seems to have become a little heated), it may be a personal revelation. I run with a blue collar crowd, such discussions are just beyond most of them, not for lack of intelect, but a lack of interest. I know I'm off point, but in my humble, uninitiated view, post away brother!! If nothing else I've learned a thing or two from the replies to your post. So I'll add , thanks.
in love and light,
Dominic"Don't look at the "results" as what is vital for discussion, but the methods of achieving those results. Sure, post away brother, post away - I simply recommend restructuring our ideas of what is valuable and what is not."
And still...
"Strive ever to more!"
I agree with Takamba, that you won't learn unless you act. And having acted, you then have to learn from it, or it's just as bad as not acting in the first instance. QBL (132) means 'to receive.' It is also related to another concept meaning 'to make waste.' I am assuming we all want to learn how to do the former, not the later. Sometimes the only way to get a handle on what is really happening is to share it with others. And what if the feedback is negative? Is that really such a bad thing? Maybe it has the potential to be constructive criticism...
Love and Will
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93 93/93
93 93/93"I agree with Takamba, that you won't learn unless you act. And having acted, you then have to learn from it, or it's just as bad as not acting in the first instance. QBL (132) means 'to receive.' It is also related to another concept meaning 'to make waste.' I am assuming we all want to learn how to do the former, not the later. Sometimes the only way to get a handle on what is really happening is to share it with others. And what if the feedback is negative? Is that really such a bad thing? Maybe it has the potential to be constructive criticism..."
I agree. Negative feedback is not intended to hurt but to help. If we always consider this as the first option when deciding someone motives who criticize us, we will learn and grow much easier
As a Man/Woman, we should have the maturation to hear TRUTH.
Otherwise we are not a Man/Woman.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.