"God" vs. HGA
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Priory Soul, 93,
"In your experience what exactly is the understanding held by Thelemites?"
I think you've just had a pretty full response from JAE. The main point I'd add is that having an ordered arrangement of the cosmos for yourself may be a temporary necessity to get a handle on things in the early stages. However, it should not be seen as having any lasting value.
Beyond that, I'd suggest reading through chapter One of the Book of the Law, and doing so more than once, to gain a better intuitive and/or emotional sense of Nuit, a concept that transcends any regular notions we have of "God."
93 93/93,
Edward -
Edward, are you concluding your examination saying to hear a voice which is not of the self inside the thought patterns of one's own mind is "insanity" or unhealthy?
The referral of the self in third person means, having internal dialogue with words calling the self by name or him or her, or thou.
I am familiar with book of the law chapter one, I memorized it over 20 years ago.
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Priory Soul, 93,
When you refer to the self with a lower-case s, I assume you mean the mundane ego.
I wouldn't and won't generalize about whether someone with K&C hears words or engages in an inner dialogue. Same goes for identifying the HGA with a capital-s Self.
93 93/93,
Edward -
Thanks Jim and SeekingHGA for your replies I found them very helpful.
Seeking HGA, your analogy is a very good one.
Jim, my question, which I guess your answer sort of answers is: is the HGA the Atman - i.e. the silent self that sits in the centre of the wheel of the four aspects of the mind observing and coordinating them? This is a concept that I can comprehend and wondering if this is the same as the HGA.
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@horustheantichris said
"Jim, my question, which I guess your answer sort of answers is: is the HGA the Atman - i.e. the silent self that sits in the centre of the wheel of the four aspects of the mind observing and coordinating them? This is a concept that I can comprehend and wondering if this is the same as the HGA."
This is one of those questions that has adepts shut their mouths and look the other way
... because either a Yes or No answer would be wrong. That is, either answer could seriously mislead you.But let me recklessly try...
You may have noticed that my definition of "HGA" in Visions & Voices began with the sentence, "Variously defined and resistant to universal definition, broadly regarded as one’s most intimate and personal experience of the Godhead." I assure you that every word of this was carefully picked.
In the private letter from Crowley that I previously mentioned as having been published in Equinox No. 1, Crowley wrote of the Angel, "The Qabalah calls him Jechidah;" and I consider Yechidah to be exactly the same as Atman.
"Oh, so the answer is yes?" you ask. No, it isn't. "Why?" you plead? Because, while the Angel is that which you discover at the end of your pursuing Atman, there may be nothing true about the Angel which is true about your idea of Atman.
Then, again, even if nothing of it is true of the Angel, it may be necessary for you to act as if your mental fact-file is all relevant for your particular journey. Or, then again, it may not.
(See why adepts turn the other way?)
Your question doesn't center on whether Atman is a suitable alternative name for the HGA - it centers on whether a particular collection of facts and conceptions and goodness-knows-what about Atman (as presently existing in your mental picture) is all true. I assure you it is not - it absolutely, unequivocally is not - because the Angel doesn't fit inside thoughts and conceptions about such things. Then again, it may be useful for you to act as if this is so (i.e., these ideas may have the key you need), so "No" is an incorrect answer.
(Adepts get neck problems from this sort of question
)Let me give you a kinda sorta koan about the whole thing. (The facts have been changed to disturb the innocent.)
Assume (for koan's sake) that there is only one Kether - that we are all (every living one of us) connected at the same center and there is no difference - that the only difference among any of us is how we go forth from that center (much as if we were considering the specific path each of us took in stepping away from the North Pole: which longitude would we be on? or the line connecting any of us to the center of a sphere or even a hypersphere from whatever point we had on its surface; but, after using these polar and spherical arguments, go back to the original postulation above: Assume that the only difference among any of us is how we go forth from the one Kether.)
You have to get and consent to the postulate before there's any use going on with the koan.
I can now define the HGA perfectly for you: It's everything between you and Kether. Oh, and the momentum pulling you in that direction. Oh, and maybe (just maybe) the end of your journey as well as the journey itself. (Or not.)
(Struggle with this until you get it.)
Do you see? Do you see why there isn't a single answer? Why (in particular) it looks like everybody's answer is different? Why (also in particular) we so often avoid questions that could confuse the journey with the end?
It's easy for me, in the above, to say, "the Angel is found in the Path of Gimel." (That's actually the thought from which the koan arose decades ago.) But that pronouncement leaves out as much as it says; or, rather, says as much between the words as in the words.
It's why (and now I return to the beginning of the post) my definition in Visions & Voices spoke of "one’s most intimate and personal experience of the Godhead." Not the Godhead, but one's experience of it. The Godhead could be identical for each of us - as if there were only a single Kether that we all shared - but one's experience of it will invariably be distinctive from any other being's experience of it.
Then again, the journey becomes the destination at the end. The separation between one's experience of a thing and the thing itself diminishes at an accelerating rate as one approaches the thing and, at last, becomes one with it.
It doesn't matter whether you call it God or Atman or Yechidah or Higher Self or Fred. You are equally right and just about the same amount of wrong in any of those cases.
All of which leads to a lot more paragraphs and exceptions and contradictions and variations... which actually are silly to write about... which really lead us back to the perfectly good advice that got most of us in this mess in the first place:
Take the journey yourself.
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Thank you Jim. I have read this and reread it many times since you posted it yesterday and I think (maybe) I understand. I really appreciate you taking your time with me.
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@horustheantichris said
" is the HGA the Atman - i.e. the silent self that sits in the centre of the wheel of the four aspects of the mind observing and coordinating them? "
The experience of having knowledge of the HGA means being actively mindful of all the components of the mind, it means having awareness of the power of being honest with the self, the heart returns to innocence, the thoughts become very clear and simple, the sensation is like awaking from sleep realizing you've had blinders on your whole life spent in a fog.
The experience of having conversation with the HGA is not a supernatural event, it only sounds that way because most human cultures forcibly deactivate the genetic switch in their offspring, ignoring it rather than nurturing it.
During the experience of Knowledge & Conversation it quickly becomes apparent that animals like dogs & cats live naturally open in the same way. Also you will be able to know the difference and see the difference between those people who have achieved attainment and those who haven't.The experience of the K&C may be said to come from the yogic state of silence, but during the actual event of attainment one becomes aware of a previously unnoticed faculty of the mind. And ultimately when this new faculty is put to use it opens the brain to potential omniscience.
The experience of the conversation is just exactly like the way your mind normally produces thought patterns with internal dialogue firing statements like, "why won't the page load, i wish it would, i don't like it when my computer is slow" "cool avatar. i'm feeling hungry. maybe cookies and milk, i will get up in a minute and get me some"
but the difference between regular thought and thinking during K&C is the awareness or mindfulness of coordination between other components comprising of the self yet previously not integrated. These components are physiological and not supernatural, the process of integration obeys scientific method but is considered spiritual because many people simply do not want or need an expanded view.
So now then, here is an example of what it sounds like during the experience of the conversation. Notice the ego discarnates from the True Self becoming an outside influence observing the conversation and interjecting.
Self: "wishing the page would load, wondering why it doesn't"
Ego: "he is being impatient" "john gets upset when things don't go his way"
HGA: "keep patient. remain calm."
Self: "i am calm and being patient, but something is wrong with the server or my computer."
EGO: "john feels negatively against uncertainty. not having control fills him with the doubt and fear. silly computer geek nerd not worthy to overhear our discourse."
HGA: "Lord, will there be a solution or come a true answer for john?"
Lord: "the server will be down for 5 minutes"
HGA: "it's not your computer, the server is down, try back in 5 minutes"
Self: "ok i'll try back in 5 minutes"Now then, as you can see, there is unusual dialogue taking place in the mind, the ego no longer speaks from the same position as the self. During K&C the ego has been stripped away, but still surfaces as an independent portion, a remnant memory of your opinions and self serving behavior patterns, discarnated because it is limits the freedom of the True Self and blinds us from the K&C.
Throughout this whole experience sometimes the person does not even notice any change at all from his normal thinking patterns, he will tell himself it's just active imagination or him being extra talkative to himself. Even the serious students of magick who have read about the K&C, sometimes it takes awhile before they realize they've arrived at the attainment. They were expecting something bigger or louder or more amazing?
And adding to this, typically after the conversation is over, as the brain returns to its regular state, those component faculties deactivate and most of the experience is forgotten.
It is not forgotten due to meaninglessness, it just utilizes a different form of memory.
The Knowledge gained from the experience of the K&C is stored by your Soul and in the Akasha, as part of the Universal Mind. Each time you entertain the K&C you will remember everything from previous sessions, and anything you don't intentionally try to permanently remember by writing down, slips away again.A typical misconception is that experience of the Knowledge & Conversation is something you can do one time and remember it always, like riding a bicycle or viewing a motion picture film. It doesn't work that way. It is a state of consciousness that demands certain requirements fulfilled, and it takes some practice getting used to.
Upon mastering a technique then the attainment to the K&C can be performed practically at will, and at this level of expertise the magician can begin asking questions of the Angel and acquiring information better than google, working his way toward omniscience and immortality.
And this is why we call it an Angel at work rather than a component part of the brain, it knows things we ourselves don't know, and it can explain new things in new ways never done before by anyone in our known histories.As a final note let me offer forewarning of the danger involved with this practice. It changes a person. It will make you feel like more of a person, whole and complete in many ways, fully realized and more keenly aware of the truth of things, but in our modern societies this equates to feeling like less of a person because the majority of people have no idea the human brain is capable of such prowess, and most people don't want to know. It is likely a sample of what I mean will show itself in this very thread, the kinds of things that happen to people given to this practice.
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Priory Soul thank you for your response. Your answer is very intelligible and very much what I suspected. I have had the experience you described a number of times since taking up practice, but only recently identified it as a separate function of my mind independent of the other four. It's penetrating insight and advice led me to believe this was the voice of my HGA.
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2 things:
1: As is oft-pointed-out, Knowledge and Conversation is not "facts and chat"
2: Verbal language is a part of Ruach -
@AvshalomBinyamin said
"2 things:
1: As is oft-pointed-out, Knowledge and Conversation is not "facts and chat"
"Yes this is consistent with my experience.
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@Priory Soul said
"Self: "wishing the page would load, wondering why it doesn't"
Ego: "he is being impatient" "john gets upset when things don't go his way"
HGA: "keep patient. remain calm."
Self: "i am calm and being patient, but something is wrong with the server or my computer."
EGO: "john feels negatively against uncertainty. not having control fills him with the doubt and fear. silly computer geek nerd not worthy to overhear our discourse."
HGA: "Lord, will there be a solution or come a true answer for john?"
Lord: "the server will be down for 5 minutes"
HGA: "it's not your computer, the server is down, try back in 5 minutes"
Self: "ok i'll try back in 5 minutes""wow man
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To me, the word "God" is merely a place holder.
It says, in a way, "insert holiness as you see holiness here."Praying to God, the first was of Had, the second to Khu ; they were both for Nu.
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The Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is the ability to behold your mind unobscured by prejudice, pride, or logic.
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That's a pretty narrow and pathetic definition.
Those are reasonable indications of psychological conditions that could be useful in approaching the K&C (at least, to some people), but hardly the K&C itself.
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Thanks Jim, I'm still seeking.
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@seekinghga said
"Thanks Jim, I'm still seeking.
"I'm glad you took it the way I meant it - about the information and not personally.
The whole reason of this thread, though, is partly because the matter is difficult to articulate. Your "struggling out loud with it" is valuable.
I tried to recognize this difficulty in the Glossary of Visions & Voices, while still saying something that might be meaningful. For example, I defined Holy Guardian Angel as follows: "Variously defined and resistant to universal definition, broadly regarded as one’s most intimate and personal experience of the Godhead." I then defined the K&C as, "Profoundly personal intimate union with a Divine Other."
But if it were that easy, we'd have been done in the first few minutes on this thread
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Interesting thread! I was surprised to see Priory Soul's contributions in particular, as I was rather struck by this bit of Crowley's commentary on Liber Samekh today:
""I am He" asserts the destruction of the sense of separateness between self and Self. It affirms existence, but of the third person only.
- Commentary on Section Gg. The Attainment, Line 1"
The ritual crescendos with the Adept's invocation to "Spirit," the akasa, or the Aethyr; I attribute its success as inclusive of the shift in perspective noted above.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I've read so many of Crowley's works so many times.
To me,
I've always found his paradigm to be most valuable because of its virtue of uniting virtually every popular religion on the planet, or at least every one within the popular cultural framework Crowley found himself able to travel about and immerse himself in at the time.This fact in and of itself has surely afforded me (and perhaps others) much for thoughtful contemplation.
I was given a very, very narrow spiritual perspective focusing specifically on a pseudo-Christian tradition from the time I was born. There have been other authors of import for me, but the research and investment that this man in particular put into his own spiritual path I found to be utterly riddled with the deepest of sincerities, the most wholesome of intents.
Thanks to him, I've learned so much about the traditions across our planet Earth. I, of course, included his own pantheonic rendition of the mystic experience in my study, deliberately focusing on maintaining the integrity of his own figures and imagery by strictly observing them (as I did with every other tradition), in turn subduing any impulse to project or interpret meaning.
I am willing to bet the Knowledge and Conversation has as much to do with a state of dialogue as it does a state of attention, that it hasn't as much to do with "speaking in the third person" as it does with self-observation.
Really, this seems very basic to me; we're talking Elementary Theory here:
"As long as an idea is being examined, you are free from it."
- Liber ABA, Pt. II cap XVI. The Magick Fire"
Your ego-consciousness or Ruach: its an idea you help to make about yourself. The Silent Watcher at the threshold, the sentient quintessence of dividual consciousness, can be expressed chiefly as an experience free of identity, the True Self as free from self.
In my own terms, I would say the "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel" is a verbal convention conveying the mystic function itself; it is the devotion of the human experience to the manifestation of Godhead.
P. S. Sorry for all the edits. As no one's responded yet, I took it as an opportunity to make myself clearer.
Love is the law, love under will.