contemporary Black Brothers
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Everything in the human subjective mind is a lie, an illusion. Only objective data can reveal truth.
The spiritual is just the delusional the dreams in the mind.
Initiation is the pursuit of reality, not the belief in spiritual dreams. The supernals are not spiritual sources of physical reality, they are the hard factual physical reality, from which all thoughts and dreams, perceptions and astral spiritual subjective awareness arises. To cross the abyss you have to leave yourself behind, that means any notion of personal feeling, intuition, subjective awareness, to destroy everything of ones mind, body and soul and address rue hard factual reality itself, with the subjective totally annihilated and left behind. Only the objective truthful gets across the abyss, nothing of a "personal subjective reality" and no feelings or spiritual anything of self at all.
You must be an empty shell, pure material substance to cross the abyss, the angels bid it to pass, for there is no life there in. There he shall be laid to rest in the city of pyramids and Nemo shall me his name.
No name as you have reduced self totally to material substance, without any subjective inner world at all. Bina is pure matter striped of all spirit. Is Saturn, who devours his own children as matter ultimately creates and destroys all things recycles all back into itself.
Thus. Attainment is acceptance of a purely scientific materialism reality, and the leaving behind total all that is the inner, spiritual, or subjective awareness. The hardware stripped of all software, is the body without a name. And that is the Magister Templi as opposed to the black brother who refuses to give up his name, his soul, and his subjective perspective "personal reality" over to the cold meaningless objective truth of the abyss.
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@Lusate Auton said
"There is a certain inexorable truth to Froclown's ideology - given the limitations of his spiritual realm."
The Ruach is a closed loop, a self-contained circuit. Within a person's intellect, all hamsters run on the same wheel.
One would at least expect robotic knee-jerks from that part of any of us, if not out-and-out consistency.
"I have tried to help champion, with him, the atheistic, scientific part of the method of Scientific Illuminism: the method of Science, the aim of Religion."
You're entitled.
I particularly like, though, your use of the word "part," since this is a subset of the bigger picture. (Once you get over the hurdle of realizing this is only part of the bigger picture, then you find that the parts are primarily separated by semantics and points of view.)"Is this an impasse?"
Is what an impasse?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The content of many of Froclown's posts form excellent examples of the sort of doctrine that emanates from the Black Brotherhood. (I'm not characterizing him personally. One normally credits the originators, not their apologists.)"
Funny, I had exactly the same thought.
Love and Will
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@Jim Eshelman said
"L. Ron Hubbard is a good example ... I'm sure he advanced as far as 7=4"
Seriously?
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Wondering if anyone has seen the movie. Dead Man's Chest, which was the sequel to the Disney Pirates of the Carribean?
In that movie we meet a monster, named Davey Jones who I think in some regards fits the bill of a Black Brother. He certainly is a very complex character, to say the least. And if you follow the story through to the third, we are given some insights on the nature of love, and what rejecting that does to a person. -
@Froclown said
"Thus. Attainment is acceptance of a purely scientific materialism reality, and the leaving behind total all that is the inner, spiritual, or subjective awareness. The hardware stripped of all software, is the body without a name. And that is the Magister Templi as opposed to the black brother who refuses to give up his name, his soul, and his subjective perspective "personal reality" over to the cold meaningless objective truth of the abyss."
If this is the case, no need for any real work. They have medical procedures that can accomplish this.
I haven't gotten that far upstream yet, but it strikes me that the difference between insanity and spiritual development, is that in spiritual development, when we let go of the personal, subjective things, we become a part of something greater than us.
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@Froclown said
"Everything in the human subjective mind is a lie, an illusion. Only objective data can reveal truth."
I might agree that only objective data can reveal objective truth.
But nothing is true unless and until it is true in personal experience. At core, that's the essential nature of trueness.
"The spiritual is just the delusional the dreams in the mind."
So is the so-called objective world. Objects may not even exist. There is a strong possibility that only our perception of objects exists. - But that's a philosophical debate not. The psychological aspect is more amenable to demonstration, viz., that, at the very least, the so-called objective world is a quakmire of selective perception and projection.
"Initiation is the pursuit of reality, not the belief in spiritual dreams."
It is a path toward wholeness characterized by being awake on all planes of one's own existence. (You have persistently denied that more than one of those planes exists.)
"To cross the abyss you have to leave yourself behind, that means any notion of personal feeling, intuition, subjective awareness, to destroy everything of ones mind, body and soul and address rue hard factual reality itself, with the subjective totally annihilated and left behind. Only the objective truthful gets across the abyss, nothing of a "personal subjective reality" and no feelings or spiritual anything of self at all."
No argument with this, except with your spin. Yes, you have to let it all expire. (That includes "objective truth," by the way - that will bind you in the Abyss as much as anything. You have to let it all expire.) The unaddressed question is... what does one find "on the other side" of that transition?
"You must be an empty shell, pure material substance to cross the abyss, the angels bid it to pass, for there is no life there in. There he shall be laid to rest in the city of pyramids and Nemo shall me his name."
The "pure material substance" is part of what never crosses. The adept crosses - or, rather, that essential thing that was the adept, that "wore" the adept. (You've got it exactly backwards. Just flip it on its axis and you'll be right on the mark!)
"Bina is pure matter striped of all spirit."
Binah in which of the four worlds? (That definition might be true of Binah in Assiah.) (It's a ciommon amateur's mistake to forget that the entire Tree exists in all four worlds.)
"Attainment is acceptance of a purely scientific materialism reality"
I get it now! I really do. Saturn is also the planet of humor. This is part of your stand-up schtick, yes? Bravo.
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@gmugmble said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"L. Ron Hubbard is a good example ... I'm sure he advanced as far as 7=4"Seriously?"
That he advanced that far? I'm sure of it. The evidence is all over his writings and history. (As is the ranting of the Abyss at a later stage.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Lusate Auton said
"There is a certain inexorable truth to Froclown's ideology - given the limitations of his spiritual realm."The Ruach is a closed loop, a self-contained circuit. Within a person's intellect, all hamsters run on the same wheel.
One would at least expect robotic knee-jerks from that part of any of us, if not out-and-out consistency.
"I have tried to help champion, with him, the atheistic, scientific part of the method of Scientific Illuminism: the method of Science, the aim of Religion."
You're entitled.
I particularly like, though, your use of the word "part," since this is a subset of the bigger picture. (Once you get over the hurdle of realizing this is only part of the bigger picture, then you find that the parts are primarily separated by semantics and points of view.)"Yes. I'm over that hurdle personally, but I know many who are not. I've been trying to translate. That was what I meant once on some manic day when I said, "This is a subroutine. Go bigger!" It's job is to defend against the larger sea - there be dragons!
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"Is this an impasse?"Is what an impasse?"
I see us at a very specific place in a very long discussion. At this point, I can no longer defend the athestic position - for very literal and highly semantic reasons. One must be willing to breach those reasons AND believe at least something of the resulting experience.
Amid all the discussion of not taking experiences at face-value, we are all here, afterall, because at least one man took his experiences very, very seriously. So... for what that's worth in the larger discussion in my head...
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You are too attached to the idealism of the tree of life.
Idealism is not correct. There is no god of universal spirit of which the physical world manifests.
Malkuth is not the physical world, it is the subjective map of the material world. When you live your life in the perspective of naive realism, that is you living in your head, in the mental maps of the world, the self, the body, all symbols in your brain.
Then the tree from Yesod to the abyss, that is the content of The mind it is deconstructing the map, and it is maps of maps and meaning creation, personality and psychology.
Now above the abyss is the real objective materialist world, the truth of which malkuth is a mode. The territory is above the abyss, the map is bellow it.
Thus the physical brain in the supernals, contains all the 7 lower spheres, the abyss is the gap between self the inner world of mind, and the objective world outside the mind.
Bina is the hardware the brain itself, stripped of all inner content or mind, or subjective software maps etc.
Chockmah is that which moves the brain to act, the physical stimulus that triggers images in the brain, the seed that grows into naive realism in malkuth. I like to thing of the mind as a sea, the waves and ripples in the sea are our images and maps, our thoughts. The Bina state is the calm sea, the ripple less surface the void, ready to receive impressions from chockmah, the world beyond the self.
Thus above the abyss is True physical reality bellow the abyss are the images reflected into the depths of the brain, and malkuth is the apparent or phenomenal reality of direct experience and naive reality.
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Another bizarre thing this reminds me of is the experimental play by Samual Beckett called Not I. I had the great pleasure of seeing it twice in very good productions—when doen well, it's both riveting and terrifying. Unfortunately, there is really no substitute for for the live performance, and because of copywright restrictions aggressively pursued by the Beckett foundation, finding a copy online is difficult. Nevertheless, here is a wiki link to a synopses of the play and some of the ideas present in the text:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_IMy point is this: the isolated mouth in the production is hauntingly reminiscent of both what I think it must be like to be a black brother—beyond the possibility to accept or be part of anything larger than a limited sphere of mindlessly repeated ideas, and the materialism of Froclown's point of view.
Love and Will
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@Froclown said
"You are too attached to the idealism of the tree of life.
Idealism is not correct. There is no god of universal spirit of which the physical world manifests.
Malkuth is not the physical world, it is the subjective map of the material world. When you live your life in the perspective of naive realism, that is you living in your head, in the mental maps of the world, the self, the body, all symbols in your brain.
Then the tree from Yesod to the abyss, that is the content of The mind it is deconstructing the map, and it is maps of maps and meaning creation, personality and psychology.
Now above the abyss is the real objective materialist world, the truth of which malkuth is a mode. The territory is above the abyss, the map is bellow it.
Thus the physical brain in the supernals, contains all the 7 lower spheres, the abyss is the gap between self the inner world of mind, and the objective world outside the mind.
Bina is the hardware the brain itself, stripped of all inner content or mind, or subjective software maps etc.
Chockmah is that which moves the brain to act, the physical stimulus that triggers images in the brain, the seed that grows into naive realism in malkuth. I like to thing of the mind as a sea, the waves and ripples in the sea are our images and maps, our thoughts. The Bina state is the calm sea, the ripple less surface the void, ready to receive impressions from chockmah, the world beyond the self.
Thus above the abyss is True physical reality bellow the abyss are the images reflected into the depths of the brain, and malkuth is the apparent or phenomenal reality of direct experience and naive reality."
Yes, except you've entirely cut yourself off from the world of interpsychic phenomena.
Take everything you said, and then put a psychic jack in the back of your head, and connect yourself to every other thing.
Otherwise, I must admit, brother, you look pretty black.
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There is no such thing as psychic connections.
All material substance is dissolved as a single clay from which all is made and into which all dissolves.
Your psyche of mind, is just the mechanical action of matter and the only way to send information is via construction a pattern in a physical medium which resembles the information in the brain, is structurally analogous.
The point of crossing the abyss, or of any of these metaphysical awareness states, is ontology. That is all, achieving samadhi does not help us to cook diner or chop wood, it tells us nothing about anything practical, it gives us no special knowledge or power.
All it does is helps us to realize how the brain contracts maps of reality, related one symbol to another and creates maps of meaning and language, linked to emotions and physiological reactions in the body. The process of tracing them allows a degree of mailability, some can change our semantic reactions to fit reality, rather than react with phobias or obsessions.
There is no psychic forces or pleausre vibrations, or strange energies or anything that makes the universe act outside the laws of physics, and the universe does not bring or manifest anything to you.
You alter your brain, and it projects meaning into events differently, you delude yourself to interpret some unrelated event as a result of your ritual, or convince yourself you have powers by manipulating your brain to misinterpret reality, and to refuse to deny your emotions and experiences when presented with scientific data.
Belief in any of this hocus pocus, is evidence that you have some degree of ability, but that you fail to achieve understanding of it, and realization that it's just you learning to delude yourself and create semantic distortions a d illusions.
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"There is no such thing as psychic connections. "
This is a faith statement.
It has no power against people who speak from experience.
There are such things as inter-psychic phenomena and connections.
And this is the line in the sand between you and I.
Shiboleth.
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No there is not.
Show me documented proof in a scientific journal, that is based on proper controls and methodology, and thus not a hoax.
You can't
All you have is antecdoted (lies)
And possible your own experiences (maybe lies, maybe hallucinations, maybe coincidental, maybe misunderstanding of a unaccounted for material example, like a physical cue finger tap or head not)If you don't have a strictly controlled experiment in which data are collected that indicate strongly the results are not due to chance, you have nothing,
You must dobt every personal experience no matter how strongly if feels true, the more certain it feels the more you doubt it, it's probably your mind asserting it's biases.
if and only if, it confirms to controlled and repeatable experiments, might you accept that it is likely true, but even still questionable if new data comes up.
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I do not seek to convince you -
Only to explain to you what you have demanded of me as it is sometimes reasonable.
But I don't have to, you know.
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If your not seeking to convinse then your just talking total shit.
there is no reason tom say that something is true, if yu can't prove it. You are just speaking nonsense and you expect that it's true just because you say so.
I'd you care that its true or not, you would subject it to tests. If you just want to assert bullshit you know ain't so, why bother?
Outer space is very tiny
Ants are made of cheese
I have wooden teeth.
France was founded by moon men.See I can assert nonsense too. But it is of no significance. Unless I go about demanding that it's true.
In which case I better have some Hard evidence. -
You really, really seem to assume that proof of magick, the spiritual realm, etc... I'm ALL IN on this statement... will come to you as a product of confirmation with another human who is as precisely as skeptical as you.
A: This person does not exist - not who meets your own perfected criteria.
B: If they did, you would be dependent upon them for confirmation of your own reality.
In my experience, you are simply broken over, and over, and over, until you can no longer accept that the position of disconnectedness is true at all. In my mind, these are the dire judgments of Ra Hoor Khuit, and I've had to eat a few myself. That you have not remains a mystery to me. -
There is only one reality
No my reality and your reality. And things that are true are true with ot without me, were true before I existed and will be true when I am long gone.
Things that are mot true, were are and will always not be true.
What you or I or anyone believes, is irrelevant to truth.
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@Froclown said
"There is only one reality
No my reality and your reality. And things that are true are true with ot without me, were true before I existed and will be true when I am long gone.
Things that are mot true, were are and will always not be true.
What you or I or anyone believes, is irrelevant to truth."
What's missing here is this consideration:
"The ability to reduce everything to simple fundamental laws does not imply the ability to start from those laws and reconstruct the universe.The constructionist hypothesis breaks down when confronted with the twin difficulties of scale and complexity. At each level of complexity entirely new properties appear. Psychology is not applied biology, nor is biology applied chemistry. We can now see that the whole becomes not merely more, but very different from the sum of its parts.(Anderson 1972)"
From this wiki link on emergence: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
A lot of great stuff on this site, like this, which is pretty much Forclown's objection in a nutshell:
"Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic. How does an irreducible but supervenient downward causal power arise, since by definition it cannot be due to the aggregation of the micro-level potentialities? Such causal powers would be quite unlike anything within our scientific ken. This not only indicates how they will discomfort reasonable forms of materialism. Their mysteriousness will only heighten the traditional worry that emergence entails illegitimately getting something from nothing.(Bedau 1997)"
Lusate, I'm totally with you on this!
Love and Will