Angels/Demons or part of the psyche?
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Hello.
I have been really throwing myself into my thelemic studies, and have kind of hit a road block.
Everything was going great until I started to hear people's theories that some of the "spirits" (for lack of a better word) are actually part of the subconscious or psyche.
The thing I don't understand is; if they are part of my psyche how would they be able to effect change in the universe?
What are people's opinions on this? Real or in the psyche?
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I've found that the part of me that cares about the explanation can only be kept at bay by any given explanation for so long, before it finds a way to pick it apart.
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I stick with the position I stated in Sample Ritual 8 of 776 1/2:
@776.5 said
"We do not undertake to resolve these differences in the present place."
The practical approach is no different based on which way one views this. Additionally, there are philosophical complications based on such things as failure to properly understand what "separate autonomous being" really means.
Possibly something inside you is driving you to struggle with this question. If so, enjoy the arm-wrestling.
Otherwise, don't sweat it
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I suppose you can consider the recent claims made by physicists and the ancient claims made by mystics that consciousness has an intrinsic role in the structure and manifestation of reality.
Are demons real for you?
Is Belial a looming beast or just suppressed daddy issues?
Angels?...
.. Well I don't know about them
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"What are people's opinions on this? Real or in the psyche?"
I reject the dichotomy. It's not necessarily either/or like people try to make.
"The thing I don't understand is; if they are part of my psyche how would they be able to effect change in the universe?"
Simplest analogy for me:
If I play a loud "C" note on a trumpet, other things in the room that have the natural frequency of "C" will begin vibrating too and ring with the "C" note as well. That's how I imagine the connection between inner world and outer world.
As within, so without.
P.S. Freebie - While the trumpet can play many notes, it has only one natural frequency, and (unplayed) will only resonate if something outside of the trumpet plays the note of its natural frequency. That's how I imagine astrological influences. Sometimes they're playing our natural frequencies, and we ring.
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I believe that the question is, in its base, something much more simples:
Can evocation give me results that I would not get by simply working with my subconscious?
In another words, can Tiriel teach me quantum mechanics, even if I have no idea of what it is?
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Is that really the question?
It doesn't look to me like the question that Dee6 asked in this thread.
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@Dee6 said
"Hello.
I have been really throwing myself into my thelemic studies, and have kind of hit a road block.
Everything was going great until I started to hear people's theories that some of the "spirits" (for lack of a better word) are actually part of the subconscious or psyche.
The thing I don't understand is; if they are part of my psyche how would they be able to effect change in the universe?
What are people's opinions on this? Real or in the psyche?"
Well, some take the view that you are essentially programming your subconscious and this results in results in changes happening in your life in such a way that they appear to arise "magically" at a later day, but it has really been your subconscious working the whole time to make it happen without your being aware of the efforts. Others would say something like, your psyche can effect change in the universe in a way similar to a finger touching the surface of a body of water. The resulting ripples spread out far beyond their source. I think it is more accurate, however, to recognize that everything exists in your mind. It's only through the lens of the ego that things appear to exist in three different categories; a real part of the self, a self-made, unreal, invention of ones own mind, or a real thing existing outside of and separate from the self.
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" if they are part of my psyche how would they be able to effect change in the universe?"
Every single aspect of me came into being because it was useful, and served to promote successful evolution. Aspects of myself that do not help me survive and evolove, fade away, or like our appendix, we just don't know how or why they are still part of us.
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Thank you all so much.
Sadly I feel if my aim was to become connected to the devine, finding out that they are just aspects of my psyche, doesn't seem very devine.
For example: When I join an order like the O.T.O. or T.O.T. and we are wearing robes and performing a ritual, I feel like there will be a little voice in my head saying "Dude this is just a bunch of grown ups playing make believe". And I fear that little voice will ruin my chances of going forward.
I don't mean any disrespect, I am still going to go down this path. I just feel like the effect would have been stronger if I had believed theses things to be external. Maybe I am completely missing something. Can some of you please elaborate on your experience? Did anyone else have these thoughts? Will it still work for me?
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I have a candle on my stove that was a gift from my yoga teacher. It has a quote on it that reads....
" do not go where the path may lead, go instead where their is no path and leave a trail..."Thoughts and feelings are like a trail in the woods, some of these trails we frequent, and they become well trod paths and roads, While other ways through are just bunny paths.
In your brain and heart, where thoughts and feelings arise, you are trailblazing.
I also think that these trails are more like etheric threads that arise and sustain existence in fields and are capable of being woven together. The act of weaving will create what could be considered definable mass....and substance.
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Another thing,
Divinity seems to imply some sort of great cosmic being that is behind all of creation and evolution.
I know many people who get upset with that, because they do not feel, or think that they are connected, or acknowledged by this supreme cosmic deity.
I often find more comfort in the understanding that the great cosmos is evolving, constantly and that a supreme cosmic being may at some point come into known existence.
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@Dee6 said
"Sadly I feel if my aim was to become connected to the devine, finding out that they are just aspects of my psyche, doesn't seem very devine."
You might consider what the actual nature of your psyche is... and whether it all fits inside your physical body's nervous system. (If that isn't clear, let it soak a bit.)
That is: In this particular case, the missing piece probably is in your understanding of what is meant by "your psyche." (Actually, the missing piece is probably in your understanding of the word "your" or, rather, "my." <g>)
"I don't mean any disrespect"
None perceived. It's an honest and worthy question.
"I just feel like the effect would have been stronger if I had believed theses things to be external."
Then believe it. I'm really serious when I say that the definition is a matter of convenience. One might have to get above the level of mind that forms definitions to understand it, but FWIW I assure you it's true.
Belief is a tool to use, just like an invocation. It is a forging of your mind into a certain shape, the shape necessary to accomplish a particular end.
The best example of this I know is the invocation of the Holy Guardian Angel. There persists a good-faith debate as to whether the HGA is a sublime aspect of oneself or is a separate, outside being. Without in any sense trying to resolve that debate, I suggest that the willed attainment of the Knowledge & Conversation of that Angel only is attainable through adopting the position that the Angel is a separate, discrete being. (You can't unite the whole of yourself [as presently understood] except with something that is not-self.) But (you may ask), what if you don't belive that this is true? Then (I say), believe it! Enter into the forged world of your choosing. That's magick! (Just don't confuse it with the objective material world occupied by others. That's schizophrenia! <g>)
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I have heard it said before, and I think it will help me to use the idea that I don't need to understand or see how electricity works to see the result obtained from flipping a light switch.
So for now, maybe I think my real dilemma is being to eager to know everything at once. I think I will relax and enjoy the process, and I can draw my own conclusions later on.
Thanks again for the great insights, it's great of you to help.
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"Lon Duquette has a good saying for this topic. "It's all in your head. You just have no idea how big your head is.""
I actually listened to Lon Doquette on a pod cast yesterday, that's what sparked all these questions.I just spent an a little over an hour meditating, and doing some ritual work, like the LBRP. I spent some time basically having a one sided conversation with my HGA, where I basically said "I am new, and also alone (dont know any magicians, still not in an order) and asked for it to help guide me"
I feel pretty good.
Thanx everyone for the input and support, its helping a lot.
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From: hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib6.html
"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.
It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.
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The advantages to be gained from them are chiefly these:
("a") A widening of the horizon of the mind.
("b") An improvement of the control of the mind. -
The student, if he attains any success in the following practices, will find himself confronted by things (ideas or {13} beings) too glorious or too dreadful to be described. It is essential that he remain the master of all that he beholds, hears or conceives; otherwise he will be the slave of illusion, and the prey of madness."
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My take on the question has been in my signature for the past while. It's from David Spangler's autobiography, Apprenticed to Spirit: "These non-physical dimensions are vast, much vaster than the physical territory of the earth. I usually call them 'inner worlds,' not because they are inside anything--and certainly not simply inside me in some psychological sense--but because I reach inside myself for the senses and capabilities to see and engage with them."
This is sort of the opposite of DuQuette's view. It's not all in your head -- but the portal that leads you there is.
(Perhaps from the transabysmal perspective, the two opinions are not all that different.)