Elemental correspondences in LBRP
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Do you think there is any merit to the idea that vowels correspond to elements?
Here is the diagram I am working with:
I = Fire. The pronounciation should be “ee” (EE-lo-hEEm; EE ah)
A = Earth. The pronounciation should be “ah”. (AH-do-nAH-ee)
E = Water. The pronounciation should be “eh” (EH-l) .
O = Air. The pronounciation should be “oh” or “oo”
Y / SH = Spirit.This approach priviledges sound over letters of a name, which can become misspelled over time. So if Uriel is the archangel of Earth, the earth vowel would suggest his name should be pronounced AH-riel while the air vowel suggests the angel of Air, Ariel, should be pronounced either OH-riel or OO-riel.
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No clear opinion... except that, since the elements are already represented by the letters, it seems inelegant and unnecessarily duplicative to try to apply them to vowels as well. (Especially since the vowel pointings are very late, post-diaspora.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(Especially since the vowel pointings are very late, post-diaspora.)"
I'm lost on your reference to vowel pointings. If you could point in a direction where I can find out more about them that would be appreciated.
Also, I know the following has come up before, but if you could provide a hint (without breaking any oaths) on where I might find out about the significance of the SEQUENCE of divine names in the LRP that would be helpful. For example, a title of the source would be helpful.
Thanks.
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@he atlas itch said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(Especially since the vowel pointings are very late, post-diaspora.)"I'm lost on your reference to vowel pointings. If you could point in a direction where I can find out more about them that would be appreciated."
There was no need for written vowels in the Hebrew language until the nation scattered to the winds in the early-to-mid 1st Millennium. Before that, they were not part of the written language. The rabbis invented them "on the way out of town" (so to speak) so that, no matter where the Jewish people found themselves, there was an improved chance they'd actually be able to pronounce Hebrew.
This reference is as good as any. (Actually, it lists the invention at a much later date than I gave it. I might be remembering wrong - thinking it was too early. This reference says "early Middle Ages.")
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_vowel"Also, I know the following has come up before, but if you could provide a hint (without breaking any oaths) on where I might find out about the significance of the SEQUENCE of divine names in the LRP that would be helpful. For example, a title of the source would be helpful."
I think I've said all I can about this. The permission I have is to say that this is not elemental but is dependent on sequence. Most specifically, I cannot say where (title of work) the information can be found. (It's from classic (pre-Zoharic) kabbalistic writings.) - Perhaps it would help if I say that you don't have to know the sequence for the ritual to work.
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@Jim Eshelman said
" Perhaps it would help if I say that you don't have to know the sequence for the ritual to work."
Fair enough. After working with both the LBRP and Star Ruby, I have found the LBRP to be far more powerful and effective. So it definitely works - I just don't know WHY
Thanks for clarification.
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I checked the Wikipedia link on Hebrew vowels and found a section relating to the underlying issue:
Among those who do not speak Hebrew, niqqud are the sometimes unnamed focus of controversy regarding the interpretation of those written with the Tetragrammaton—written as יְהֹוָה in Hebrew. The interpretation affects discussion of the authentic ancient pronunciation of the name whose other conventional English forms are "Jehovah" and "Yahweh".
The authentic ancient pronounciation of Hebrew divine names is what I am trying to recover through researching the relationship between the five vowels and five elements. When I look at the hierarchies listed in the columns of 776 ½, the names and groupings are confusing. What I know is that they share certain elemental correspondences (Assiah – Earth, Yetzirah – Air, Briah – Water, Atziluth – Fire). If we keep in mind the listings were taken from prior sources and that names can become distorted, misspelled or even incorrectly mapped over extended periods of times, there should nonetheless be, taking into consideration human error, a hidden phonetic logic to these hierarchies of names. Even if we no longer know the authentic ancient vowel sound, by looking at the elemental correspondence of a divine name, we should be able to recover that sound. Or at least know where to place the accent when vibrating a divine name.
(Incidentally Jacques Derrida, who drew inspiration for his deconstruction of Western metaphysics from the Tree of Life, made the distinction between the written word and speech. Since the time of Plato speech was always priviledged over the written text as the latter was considered to be deceptive – a text can mislead, contain blinds, etc. Consequently speech was considered to be “closest to the soul” and a higher form of authenticity)
A magician friend working in the Tibetan/Shaivist tradition first brought to my attention the connection between the five vowels and five elements. The five elements are found in all major cultures and likewise variations of the five vowels can be found in languages. As he described it the vowels “open the gates” of the corresponding element. So if the correct vowel sounds are found in the divine names, recovery of the ancient pronounciation should activate the energies signified by the name.
Moreover if niqqud was only invented in the second half of the first millenium to prevent spoken Hebrew from being forgotten during the diaspora, this attests even more to the hidden magickal significance of vowels. The vowels were not written in Hebrew prior to this period to prevent divine names from being accidentally pronounced.
I am still fine-tuning the prior listing of vowel>elements. An advanced Enochian practitioner provided the following alternative schema:
I = Spirit, pronounced “ee”, corresponding to 8th and 7th chakras (akasha and crown)
E = Air, pronounced “eh”, corresponding to 6th and 5th chakras (3rd eye and throat)
A = Fire, pronounced “ah”, corresponding to 4th and 3rd chakras (heart and solar plexus)
U = Water, pronounced “oo”, corresponding 2nd chakra, (seat of kundalini)
O = Earth, pronounced “oh”, corresponding to 1st chakra (from groin to ground)Question:
Given the ancient prohibition against accidentally pronouncing Hebrew divine names and considering that contemporary A.A. orders work precisely against this prohibition via performance of Pentagram or Hexagram rituals, among others, are there any techniques on how to control and undo any resulting energetic effects from accidentally pronouncing names correctly, such as IHVH, other than just not pronouncing them anymore?
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@he atlas itch said
"Or at least know where to place the accent when vibrating a divine name."
That one's easy (at least as a matter of technique) In vibrating a Divine Name, give equal weight to every syllable.
Additionally - and, again, this is a matter of technique, but a respected technique with several virtues - in vibrating or magically intoning a Name, there should be as many syllables as there are letters, i.e., the weight of your attention is on the letters themselves.
Vibrating is not the same as saying. A Name that, in normal conversation, is pronounced eh-h'YEH would be magically intoned as AY-HAY-YEE-YAY.
"Moreover if niqqud was only invented in the second half of the first millenium to prevent spoken Hebrew from being forgotten during the diaspora, this attests even more to the hidden magical significance of vowels. The vowels were not written in Hebrew prior to this period to prevent divine names from being accidentally pronounced."
I think it was more likely that Hebrew speakers simply knew how to read. Astonishingly, speech was an oral tradition
More casual words were equally obscure (no more, no less) as Divine Names."Given the ancient prohibition against accidentally pronouncing Hebrew divine names and considering that contemporary A.A. orders work precisely against this prohibition via performance of Pentagram or Hexagram rituals, among others, are there any techniques on how to control and undo any resulting energetic effects from accidentally pronouncing names correctly, such as IHVH, other than just not pronouncing them anymore?"
Personally, I don't think this is an issue. Partly it's because the magical value of these is not in the phonix but in the phoenix - not in the simple pronunciation, but rather in the style of vibration. Secondly, I think one would have to be invested in that particular religion for these "safeguards" to matter, since they really were intended only for the purpose of building the Name into something so highly reserved that the mind lurches on hearing it. Thirdly, one can create this effect oneself (and probably would create it with the name of one's own HGA) simply by not saying it except in reserved and private situations.
For example, I have long had what I believe is the correct recovered pronunciation of Tetragrammaton. Even acknowledging the layers of superstition etc. around it, I will not pronounce this out loud except in a context equivalent to the original Holy of Holies. That's just a personal "keeping it preserved" which makes it into a particularly potent device. (I don't care if anyone knows it. I just don't want anybody saying it <vbg>. The key is that the Hebrews preserverved written records of the consonants, but the Greeks preserved, in their written records, the power of the vowels in Divine Names, and there is a simple and obvious solution that produces a result long suspected by some Hebrew scholars.)
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@he atlas itch said
"Given the ancient prohibition against accidentally pronouncing Hebrew divine names and considering that contemporary A.A. orders work precisely against this prohibition via performance of Pentagram or Hexagram rituals, among others, are there any techniques on how to control and undo any resulting energetic effects from accidentally pronouncing names correctly, such as IHVH, other than just not pronouncing them anymore?"
I'm afraid I've forgotten where I read this, but a Hindu writer said (from memory), "It is a blessing that we know the names of God, and we should speak them often and with joy." I'm fascinated that these two quite opposite attitudes -- we should never speak the holy names, or only speak them with great fear and reverence, vs we should often speak them, and with joy and abandon -- are both equally attempts to express the same deep reverence for the transcendent. It's just another sign that below the abyss we can only approach reality through contradiction.
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Good point. These are very different cultures with respect to such names. - For one thing, the Hindu is highly ecumenical with respect to accepting and incorporating almost any god that someone wants to worship. The Hebrew religion, despite its early pantheistic nature and the wide range of names by which it identifies God, is not so accepting. (Hindus have been known to slaughter people of other religions now and then, but Hebrews were known to slaughter whole peoples just for worshipping a different god.)
There is also the difference that, in Hindu religion(s), the people are pretty much full participants, whereas in the Hebrew religion the priests were already intermediaries and socially, politically, and economically elite.
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Possible to get a link or a paste of the childrens hebrew prayer?
Google does nothing. -
Also any good old school paintings of the archangels with a relationship, however strong or weak, to the telesmatic technique and correspondences?
Very keen to develop more depth in the archangels.
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@sevenoneves said
"Possible to get a link or a paste of the childrens hebrew prayer?"
It goes:
Before me, Raphael.
Behind me, Gabriel.
On my right hand, Mikhael.
On my left hand, Uriel. -
"Also, I know the following has come up before, but if you could provide a hint (without breaking any oaths) on where I might find out about the significance of the SEQUENCE of divine names in the LRP that would be helpful. For example, a title of the source would be helpful."
Itchy one from the vast waters..
I would invite you, (I am not in any orders, so I cannot possibly violate any oaths. I have been in communication with secret chiefs, and they are not stopping me from typing this nor making my stomach queasy..)
to make a map of all four rituals, Lesser Pentagram inside of Lesser Hexagram inside of Supreme Pentagram inside of Greater Hexagram.
All four in a typical "quartering" map.
Include in the map all the appropriate pentagrams, hexagrams, including arrows to show you where they appropriately start from, and use symbols for the elements and whatnot.
I was pondering this over a year ago when I made my map. ALL else I can say is that I completely understood why Jim did not explain this before I read his reply. Pandora. Do not scan this map nor post it on the internet. Anyone wishing and willing to go through this work would most likely not wish to do any wrong with it.. but divine patterns are to be kept away from weaker ones.
Your scanner would break.
This is very simple.
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I think it's one of those things that are going to change the more you know and the more you look at it and understand. The first time I had this question, I came up with an answer. After more reading, studying and doing, I've come up with a different answer. More months of the same and I've a third, which probably is at about 4 or 5 typed pages of "Why". Is it **the **answer? I dunno. I suspect that answer will be replaced again in a few more months or years, or when/if I go through initiation.
I think the whole point of the exercise is to exercise.
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@Skia said
"I think it's one of those things that are going to change the more you know and the more you look at it and understand. The first time I had this question, I came up with an answer. After more reading, studying and doing, I've come up with a different answer. More months of the same and I've a third, which probably is at about 4 or 5 typed pages of "Why". Is it **the **answer? I dunno. I suspect that answer will be replaced again in a few more months or years, or when/if I go through initiation.
I think the whole point of the exercise is to exercise."
Yes, you will connect and be initiated if you strive ever onward, with the one love of the profound.
I go through months sometimes of the dark night of Apophis where nothing matters and it seems like besides even balancing myself, there's no reason for me to cause change in conformity with will - but I still practice, and that practice brings me through and enlightens me every time...
Those "different" answers you are getting will all line up when you get the overhead view.
Just like different correspondences with Liber 777/776 1/2. If you look at the element of Earth as 32bis, the color corresponding to Earth is not just green, as its elemental color.Even in just the King scale of color, you get Citrine, russet, olive, and black, all quartered. This does not even include the Queen, Emperor or Empress scales of color, which happen to be Amber, Dark brown, and Black and yellow, respectively.
Every time you come to a realization of a particular correspondence/relation that you recognize, compare it to the theories you already have until things line up.
It usually has to do with you recognizing something in Nature or the Work that is actually a part of you trying to get out and correspond and balance with itself in Nature or the Work.
Peace and Power
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@ThelemicMage said
"It usually has to do with you recognizing something in Nature or the Work that is actually a part of you trying to get out and correspond and balance with itself in Nature or the Work. "
I generally "go over" things when I feel that I've made a step in understanding something that I didn't have before. My most recent work on this was a rather large exercise in gematria. I did this after being given a name that might be the name of, or might some kind of a communication from, my HGA (or something else?) and doing a rather extensive amount of the same kind of work on that. Even if the communication was just a prod for me to "work and learn", it still lent to a greater view, even if I'm not at the top of the mountain looking down.
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@ThelemicMage said
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"Also, I know the following has come up before, but if you could provide a hint (without breaking any oaths) on where I might find out about the significance of the SEQUENCE of divine names in the LRP that would be helpful. For example, a title of the source would be helpful."Itchy one from the vast waters..
I would invite you, (I am not in any orders, so I cannot possibly violate any oaths. I have been in communication with secret chiefs, and they are not stopping me from typing this nor making my stomach queasy..)
to make a map of all four rituals, Lesser Pentagram inside of Lesser Hexagram inside of Supreme Pentagram inside of Greater Hexagram.
All four in a typical "quartering" map.
Include in the map all the appropriate pentagrams, hexagrams, including arrows to show you where they appropriately start from, and use symbols for the elements and whatnot.
I was pondering this over a year ago when I made my map. ALL else I can say is that I completely understood why Jim did not explain this before I read his reply. Pandora. Do not scan this map nor post it on the internet. Anyone wishing and willing to go through this work would most likely not wish to do any wrong with it.. but divine patterns are to be kept away from weaker ones.
Your scanner would break.
This is very simple."
I'm quite heavily drawn to this idea for some reason, I'm wondering though, the names to be vibrated for the quarters in both hexagram rituals are Ararita, are there any other specific names for these quarters?
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@Archaeus said
"(...)both hexagram rituals(...)"
This might not be the same idea that Frank is going for; but, when I did a "map" I didn't use both hexagram rituals. I used LRP, LRH and Opening By Watchtower.
I think this, though, is getting away from the original question.
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@Archaeus said
"I'm quite heavily drawn to this idea for some reason, I'm wondering though, the names to be vibrated for the quarters in both hexagram rituals are Ararita, are there any other specific names for these quarters?"
Not in the Lesser.
In the Greater, it is supplemented by hierarchical names for the principle being invoked or banished.
And... I forget (and haven't carefully reread the thread to this point)... you DO know (yes?) that A.R.A.R.Y.Th.A.is a notariqon and, ideally, the full original phrase should be vibrated instead? From 776 1/2:
@776 1/2 said
"The second blind involves a notariqon, just as in the Pentagram Ritual. When published scripts of this ritual say to vibrate A.R.A.R.I.T.A., that is an abbreviation for the Hebrew phrase, Echad, rosh ache’dutho, rosh yichudutho, t’muratho echad. This may not be as critical as in the Pentagram ritual because Ararita, at least, is resonant (due to all of the vowels and Rs together), in comparison to the angular, hard-edged, terse Agla. Also, A.R.A.R.I.T.A. is not as numerically (geometrically) locked into the hexagram as A.G.L.A. (i.e., the whole phrase) is to the pentagram."
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Archaeus said
"I'm quite heavily drawn to this idea for some reason, I'm wondering though, the names to be vibrated for the quarters in both hexagram rituals are Ararita, are there any other specific names for these quarters?"Not in the Lesser.
In the Greater, it is supplemented by hierarchical names for the principle being invoked or banished.
And... I forget (and haven't carefully reread the thread to this point)... you DO know (yes?) that A.R.A.R.Y.Th.A.is a notariqon and, ideally, the full original phrase should be vibrated instead? From 776 1/2:
@776 1/2 said
"The second blind involves a notariqon, just as in the Pentagram Ritual. When published scripts of this ritual say to vibrate A.R.A.R.I.T.A., that is an abbreviation for the Hebrew phrase, Echad, rosh ache’dutho, rosh yichudutho, t’muratho echad. This may not be as critical as in the Pentagram ritual because Ararita, at least, is resonant (due to all of the vowels and Rs together), in comparison to the angular, hard-edged, terse Agla. Also, A.R.A.R.I.T.A. is not as numerically (geometrically) locked into the hexagram as A.G.L.A. (i.e., the whole phrase) is to the pentagram."
"Yeah I was aware of that, Usually when I do the LRH I just vibrate ARARITA as a word, it might be interesting to try it as a full phrase, although its a touch long-winded.
One thing though, it strikes me that the Greater Hexagram ritual can only be performed as a Planet specific ritual, I wonder if there is a way to make it more general, my instinct says that doing the Greater Hexagram ritual of Sol would be the closest that I would get to this, what with Sol being the centre, whats the general consensus on this?