Fallen gods
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93,
Jim, you wrote
"The Four Great Princes (I was told by a trusted source in an intimate moment involving them) were once the four archangels - but humanity's evolution put us out of synch with them, and more in alignment with Raphael, Mikhael, Gabriel, and Uriel than Lucifer, Satan, Leviathan, and Belial. "
Are these exact correspondences, as in : Raphael-Lucifer; MIkhael-Satan; Gabriel-Leviathan and Uriel-Belial?
"- This would mean that it's not so much that they are evil, but that they are a mismatch for current (probably post-Isis Aeon) humanity. (It's not that they are bad people, just that they "aren't right for us" LOL.) Then, in the rejection and moving away over millennia, these have become further demonized within mass consciousness."
I am always of the mind that the ages co-exist. The notion of "unredeemed Spirits/unredeemed elements of our overall consciousness" introduced by Swamiji and Frater INRI suggests the Work of being Human is so complex, it is equally exhilarating and exhausting. As Marley sang "the power of philosophy flows through my head; light as a feather, heavy like lead." Knowing oneself...the Human Being as a Cognitive Event living in the 21st century...isn't that a lot of knowing? And a lot of loving?
Love is the Law, Love under Will
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@Quad Nine 9 said
"
"The Four Great Princes (I was told by a trusted source in an intimate moment involving them) were once the four archangels - but humanity's evolution put us out of synch with them, and more in alignment with Raphael, Mikhael, Gabriel, and Uriel than Lucifer, Satan, Leviathan, and Belial. "Are these exact correspondences, as in : Raphael-Lucifer; MIkhael-Satan; Gabriel-Leviathan and Uriel-Belial?"
In the sense of correct elements, yes. (And, that probably means: More broadly, yes.) See 776 1/2, Col. 606.
"I am always of the mind that the ages co-exist."
I disagree emphatically (unless by "the ages" you mean something different than I mean by "the aeons"). What happens in an individual case is irrelevant to me - everyone has to recapitulate the developmental stages within themselves. But in terms of "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall," concurrence is nonsense.
But, as I just said, maybe "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall" isn't what you mean.
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93
"I disagree emphatically (unless by "the ages" you mean something different than I mean by "the aeons"). What happens in an individual case is irrelevant to me - everyone has to recapitulate the developmental stages within themselves. But in terms of "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall," concurrence is nonsense."
So an Aeon is characterized by the specific "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall."
Question 1:
Do you see this "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall," as influenced by what is commonly called the procession of the ages? As in we are finishing up Pisces to go into Aquarius...the number of years differ, but generally something to do with 2,000+ years.Question 2:
Given that for you "What happens in an individual case is irrelevant...everyone has to recapitulate the developmental stages within themselves", could you define/describe the base line consciousness of mature, healthy members of the species during the last aeon?Question 3:
Can you say, in a general way, what % of the species are usually qualified as attaining this "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall?"I am posing these questions against the backdrop of "thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven", interpreted as "what the mind can conceive and the heart believes, will be achieved." Who/What defines the maturity and health in the human species?
The Africans and the Mayans (for example) used their minds to transform the physical landscape as is evidenced today; they did this by working and living in harmony with the natural environment. African priests, for example who were considered mature, healthy examples within their communities; could perform astral travels, physically bi-locate, raise the dead, perform rituals which defy gravity, heal individuals with a touch or a thought etc. They believed themselves to be post-literate and used symbols/pictures instead of an elaborate alphabet (Western culture we have recently discovered the value of this post-literacy); yet are still considered today, by the mature, healthy examples of Western culture to have been, and to be backward.
Further, we are still just "discovering" through archaeology etc that our ancient ancestors were privy to and seem with great success technologies we are only now just discovering. The seas, desserts and mountain tops hold great secrets of our past, yet to be uncovered.
It seems to be more that we are REVOLVING rather than EVOLUTION. Or put another way, our EVOLUTION is a REVOLUTION. "God is a spiral force." Man as a cognitive event seems limited by his physiology, which is it is duty to transcend...maturity and health notwithstanding.
If our consciousness, the human consciousness mature healthy individuals of millions of years ago could defy gravity; what's stopping their present day counterparts? (the assumption being that defying gravity is important to our species).
Enlightenment versus mass consciousness is what defines our species? Maya...the illusion, is an illusion, is an illusion, is an illusion, is an illusion...
Love is the Law, Love under Will
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@Quad Nine 9 said
"93
"I disagree emphatically (unless by "the ages" you mean something different than I mean by "the aeons"). What happens in an individual case is irrelevant to me - everyone has to recapitulate the developmental stages within themselves. But in terms of "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall," concurrence is nonsense."
So an Aeon is characterized by the specific "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall."
Question 1:
Do you see this "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall," as influenced by what is commonly called the procession of the ages? As in we are finishing up Pisces to go into Aquarius...the number of years differ, but generally something to do with 2,000+ years.Question 2:
Given that for you "What happens in an individual case is irrelevant...everyone has to recapitulate the developmental stages within themselves", could you define/describe the base line consciousness of mature, healthy members of the species during the last aeon?Question 3:
Can you say, in a general way, what % of the species are usually qualified as attaining this "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall?"
"This is the place to start: heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=6153
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@Quad Nine 9 said
"So an Aeon is characterized by the specific "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall.""
Here is the definition I gave in the glossary of Visions & Voices:
ÆON. n. (1) An indefinitely long period of time. (2) Thelema. One of three vast periods of human history (thus far), each lasting thousands of years, characterized by vast evolutionary shifts in the consciousness of the human species, with consequent impact on social, religious, and other aspects of human society. (a) The three æons to date are attributed, respectively, to Isis (the Mother), Osiris (the Father), and Horus (the Child).
"Do you see this "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall," as influenced by what is commonly called the procession of the ages?"
No, Emphatically not. For example, since we still have 400 years to go in the Pisces Age, there's clearly not (for example) a time-relationship between the Aeon of Horus and the Age of Aquarius. A further definition from Visions & Voices (where I addressed the topic of the aeons at moderate length):
AQUARIAN AGE. n. (1) The period of time (2,134 years) during which the earth’s northern hemisphere vernal equinoctial point will pass through the Sidereal constellation Aquarius (2376-4510 CE). (2) Often casually used to represent any concept of a pending Utopian or otherwise transformational era; a close relative of “millennium fever.”
"As in we are finishing up Pisces to go into Aquarius...the number of years differ, but generally something to do with 2,000+ years."
Rough two-millennia time frames don't match either the frameworks of the physical or psychological period of humanity, or any of the social, religious, or other aspects of the human collective experience that have been associated with the aeons.
For example, my best estimation of the starting point of the Osiris Aeon (broadly understood as a patriarchal
and patrilineal stage in human culture, or "Age of the Father;" and especially that period of history when the baseline level of functioning of the typical adult human has been Ruach, or ego-consciousness), I would have to pick roughly 5,000 years ago, at the point when half the human race had moved from hunter-gatherer into intentional farming, city-building, and the start of urbanization."Given that for you "What happens in an individual case is irrelevant...everyone has to recapitulate the developmental stages within themselves", could you define/describe the base line consciousness of mature, healthy members of the species during the last aeon? "
Sure. In fact, I'll give you all three. (All these are subject to much elaboration. I have another essay on this somewhere on here, probably in the subforum on Visions & Voices under COT Publications.)
The Aeon of Isis was that period of history when the baseline level of functioning of the typical adult human was Nephesh, or what is now called subconsciousness.
The Aeon of Osiris was that period of history when the baseline level of functioning of the typical adult human has been Ruach, or ego-consciousness. (Being closer to us in history, we can see more finely its gradual development. Besides the accelerating urbanization and primitive technology, we can see 5th C. BCE Greece as a critical time when the architecture of the Ruach was well articulated. We can see late 1st Millennium times when important legends showed a young, underdeveloped ego-center, and later times when the hero figures matured. Then, probably about the time of the Magna Carta, we can see the "Act III" of its development in the explosive march of liberty, technology, etc.
The Aeon of Horus, which began in or near 1904, is that period of time within which the baseline level of functioning of the typical adult human will emerge as Neshamah, or superconsciousness.
"Can you say, in a general way, what % of the species are usually qualified as attaining this "base line consciousness threshold of [mature, healthy examples of] the species overall?""
That would be a wild guess. It's a gradual emerging (as we can trace through the recent Osiris Aeon). The kick-off seems to be something of a "100th monkey" type of effect. Other measurements seem to trigger evolutionary steps, e.g., ~1900 was the approximate time when half the human race no longer went to bed unsure of where it could get food for the next day.
"I am posing these questions against the backdrop of "thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven", interpreted as "what the mind can conceive and the heart believes, will be achieved." Who/What defines the maturity and health in the human species? "
Oh, I'll do that if you like <vbseg>. - You seem to be treating this as a judgment, I'm just saying that we have sufficient scientific knowledge to see the basic shifts.
"Further, we are still just "discovering" through archaeology etc that our ancient ancestors were privy to and seem with great success technologies we are only now just discovering. The seas, desserts and mountain tops hold great secrets of our past, yet to be uncovered."
Of course. That's a different question from whether typical bodies had the neurological capacity to develop and use particular faculties, and whether these emerged in the way people lived their lives.
"It seems to be more that we are REVOLVING rather than EVOLUTION."
That was a popular view in the 1890s. Some of the writings from that time are interesting. In particular, they spoke of a pendulum swing between matriarchy and patriarchy (neither of which was well understood archaeologically or sociologically - but some of the writings were sincere and interesting).
"Or put another way, our EVOLUTION is a REVOLUTION."
I won't buy. Yes, we can fail and fall back, but that's not the same thing. Even with the fall of huge civilizations, the species baseline has kept on the increase throughout recorded history.
"Man as a cognitive event seems limited by his physiology, which is it is duty to transcend...maturity and health notwithstanding."
Exactly. But brain physiology has continued evolving, with significant leaps just in the last century or so. (I have a whole lecture on New Aeon Cognition that I need to hit more cities with - so far, I've only done it in NYC.)
"If our consciousness, the human consciousness mature healthy individuals of millions of years ago could defy gravity"
It couldn't. (That is, there is no credible evidence that anyone has ever defied gravity.)
"Enlightenment versus mass consciousness is what defines our species? Maya...the illusion, is an illusion, is an illusion, is an illusion, is an illusion."
Maya isn't illusion. It's the substance from which illusion is woven. And that substance tends to organize itself in neural circuits.
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One thing to keep on your mind as you peruse through all this stuff, is to find similarities or differences between two things you wish to learn about.
For instance, Ariel and Auriel are two completely different creatures, (they do not share the same soul,). One is of Fire and one is of Air. And two different hierarchies of elemental beings at that.
Lucifer, prince of the Air, certainly had to wrap himself around the four corners with the "demons" of Earth and Water. God, especially while he was playing the part of our Fiery Set the entire time!
In dreams, I've seen "two witnesses" as Angels of Air and Fire. I believe this is why the two corners normally populated by directly air and fire archangels have been taken over by our Pillar of Lightening, our Prince. This also has a direct relation to why Air and Fire are "upward pointing" trigrams, and Water and Earth are "downward pointing".
As has been explained before, there's no such thing as "Good or Evil", there's just "Workable" and "Unworkable." If you wish to ask Lucifer for help, you should know what there is to know about Lucifer.
If you wish to invoke Raphael and ask him for help, know what there is to know about Raphael.Just as much, you could also call forth both Michael and Satan for help. I bet, (besides all the checkerboard crap you hear about in the bible,) would help you just as much as the other one would.
All in your mind, our minds, HGAs, exploded into Samadhi. The eye of the storm isn't always as calm as it looks, so be ready for beings that look and seem the same to be completely different, and for beings that live separately and seem completely different share the same soul, if not the same name as well.
Mercury-Hod-Elemental Air. -
93
Jim, I hear you.
But, given the Thelemic definition of aeon, I will still emphatically disagree with you.
“…thousands of years, characterized by vast evolutionary shifts in the consciousness of the human species…”
I don’t agree with you that the technology of our ancestors is a “different question from whether typical bodies had the neurological capacity to develop and use particular faculties, and whether these emerged in the way people lived their lives.”
Also, about the ability to defy gravity. The most you can say, is that you personally have no credible evidence; and your not having this credible evidence does not make it untrue, it only means that you have more to know.
And this is the basic point I am trying to make. Knowledge is the currency of the homo loquax. And there is always more to know. You and I (as typical of the species) existing in this time and space, are using our cognitive capacity to posit arguments… theories… facts…about our cognitive capacity. This is always a self-reflexive endeavour.
So far, we have managed for the most part to see time as a procession; the eternal now being defined as the meeting point of the past and future, notwithstanding. But the wheel is always spinning in both directions. I believe that there is nothing new under the sun, it’s all been done already. The breakthroughs in cognitive science are equally exposing our knowledge and ignorance.
Unless the means being used by our current civilization to determine the age of artefacts deemed to be older than the stipulated three ages is faulty (and they could well be); then we are way off in terms of how we are cataloguing our evolution.
And this is crux of the matter as Crowley puts it; we have set out to conquer the mind; and we must trust mercury, yet to trust him is to be sure to be deceived. We have no choice in the matter, as currently understood by our cognitive capacity. The God we are bound to is beyond all knowing.
The substance is the illusion…which is illusion…which is illusion. Yes, the neural circuits are all we have; and God is the Wisdom and Knowledge who is revealed in homo loquax through a self-reflexivity which extends and sustains being; and which accordingly, is always deficient. We know not, that we know not.
And with, Lucifer before me; Leviathan behind me; Belial on my left and Satan on my right, that is my speck of dust on the issue, before I get around to reading your cognitive piece. I have long awaited a publication on cognition by an initiate.
Love is the Law, Love under Will
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Hello there, hope you dont mind me jumping into the discussion.
@Quad Nine 9 said
"But the wheel is always spinning in both directions. I believe that there is nothing new under the sun, it’s all been done already. The breakthroughs in cognitive science are equally exposing our knowledge and ignorance."
What cognitive (neuro)science breakthroughs are we talking about here exactly?
@Quad Nine 9 said
"The substance is the illusion…which is illusion…which is illusion. Yes, the neural circuits are all we have; and God is the Wisdom and Knowledge who is revealed in homo loquax through a self-reflexivity which extends and sustains being; and which accordingly, is always deficient. We know not, that we know not."
Interesting observation.
I am, however, inclined to disagree with the notion that neural circuits (I assume you mean neuro network in the brain) are all we have.@Quad Nine 9 said
"And with, Lucifer before me; Leviathan behind me; Belial on my left and Satan on my right, "
Ehm, have you actually done that? I mean, really evoking the four kings, physically, not just in mind, willingly and in the ritual setting?
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@ThelemicMage said
"For instance, Ariel and Auriel are two completely different creatures, (they do not share the same soul,). One is of Fire and one is of Air. And two different hierarchies of elemental beings at that."
According to my knowledge, Auriel is a Hebrew name for Archangel Uriel, thus bringing in the element of Earth not Air. (Remember from LBRP, "...to my left-hand stands Auriel..."?)
One neutral source on the subject is this:
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/002907052X -
It was an extensive typo. He meant Ariel and Aral.
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Thank you Jim, yes.
I meant Aral, but to back up what others' were saying and I tried to explain, is that I got confused because there is an Ariel in Air, and in a completely different hierarchy.
Yes, Auriel is Uriel of Earth.
Auriel = Earth Archangel of Quarters
Ariel = Air Ruler of the Elements
Aral = Fre Angel of the elementsI seriously doubt, and have experience to back this up subjectively and some effects objectively, that these creatures do not share the same soul, as some gods/angels/beings do throughout world religion.
Asar, as the Book of the Law has explained is Isa and Jesus. But, Crowley says if you wish to worship Jesus, you must not do it in an Egyptian rite, you must do it in a proper Christian (blaugh~) rite. (In my opinion, wouldn't be nearly as powerful as the Egyptian rite, seeing as Asar has more ties to Power. [More of a whole world witnessing the death of the Sun at night and it happening Every night (in Egypt), than later on when he dies on a cross and almost no one cares.]
And now we get into formulating one's own father and making fertile one's own mother...
um, there are a lot of shared souls in the Egyptian Pantheon
Let's be careful not to piss off our sacred Auditors, as Jim calls them.
I must say though, I am soooo into the Aeon of Horus, (not just physically.) He, shares so many characteristics with Fire and Maleness that I think I was made this way in this Aeon to flow directly with his power.
However, you can see by the sign of the enterer (TM by Horus), that his rising Fieryness is being transmuted into a more horizontal, forceful power, evolving into our sacred Sphinx, who gazes at both horizons constantly, yet is here now.
The ol' Stoney Sphinx.
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Oh, and Friend, you talk about the illusion, sounding like you have experience with it.. let me throw something your way -
All's illusion, but not the enemy of Truth. For instance, those neurotransmitters flowing forth in your brain,
(which will one day, with evolution, be what are now illegal drugs, and some you have are already illegal. They could take every human being in right now for presence of DMT,)
are illusions of what you actually feel.Look at the shamans of S. America that use ayahuasca to cure cancer. They say the presence of the disease is just a side-effect of the real issue, where the true path to the cure lies.
Spirit, no matter how we may term it, if looked at from completely logical breakdown, is real. (If you truly believe in illusion.) The neurotransmitters and neurons interact as a side-effect from what the spirit feels/has felt/will feel. The spirit, as we read, is invincible, omnipotent, and ever-present.
Those with extreme experience with Magick will probably not speak up on this, but it's as if you have the entire movement of the Earth and the Stars at your Will, completely. But the more power you gain, the less you want to control other things, and just focus on your own balance and evolution.
Now, are our neurotransmitters doing this by creating electromagnetic current that radiate anf flow far through the Universe past Earth. No, probably not. But the spirit truly has that vast power at it's will whenever it wishes.
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Thelemic Mage,
You misunderstand me if you think that I am saying that illusion is the enemy of Truth. I am not saying that at all. The great paradox is that is it in one sense Truth, the very substance of Truth.
And I agree that there is a substance that could take every human being right to that place which we aim for.
My battle with Jim is about the co-existence of the aeons.
So to continue with Frater INRI’s questions…mindful that we are talking about our cognitive capacity as human beings.
What neuroscience breakthroughs are we talking about exactly?
One primary example is recent breakthrough in our understanding that it is the linguistic faculty which makes us uniquely human rather than our ability to walk upright; that is homo loquax versus homo sapiens. The Cognitive Science of Religion has also recently “discovered” that knowledge (omniscience) is the definition of God. The Cognitive Linguists for their part has also “discovered” that God is a conceptual metaphor.
Well, priests all over the globe have been saying this for thousands of years…in English “in the beginning was the word.” Or alternately, from one popular source, “there is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard, their line is gone through all the earth.”
In response to your inclination “to disagree with the notion that neural circuits…brains[s] are all we have”, I will simply quote an African idiom; “but for its head, the snake would be a belt.” I am here referencing the primacy of the brain. You may cut your foot off today and still be able to respond to my post. But try cutting off your head, well don’t cut off your head, just take your brains out and try and respond to this post.
Evoking four kings…willingly. Well all you really need is Will isn’t it? The whole aim of initiating is to get past the trappings of ritual and external paraphernalia and simply control your universe with your mind. To quote the ThelemicMage “it’s as if you have the entire movement of the Earth and the Stars at your Will, completely.”
My dear friend, as it is written, “let my servants be few and secret, they shall rule the many and the known.” There are many people on “the path” who engage tirelessly in rituals without any success; and there are others who simply “chant”, speak, sing and the Gods appear. Again, “there is hope and help in other Spells” and “other sheep have I that are not of this fold.” I Am the way, the Truth and the Light…I Am My Way, My Truth and My Light. Every person has to find their own way.
Again, we are talking about cognitive capacity. An aeon according to Thelema is defined by ”thousands of years with vast evolutionary shifts in human consciousness.” First off, in more mundane terms, we are not Squid, the female doesn’t die after she gives birth. In most human cultures (which do not subscribe to the nuclear family model), up to three generations can live in a household…the ages co-existing if you will.
At the species level, we are saying that a certain kind of brain, makes for a certain mode of existence being. Cognitive scientists have identified what they term as “recurring symbols” in every human culture (so far known). These include, the cross, circle, colors, a holy spirit, notions of left and right etc. One recurring symbol among the species (not yet addressed by cognitive scientists), the existence of so-called gods, aliens, extra-terrestrials which resemble the human brain. Smaller human-like creatures whose dominant feature is not their body, but their but their brain. It is as if these creatures having fully developed the potential of their brain, have less use for the physical. That I believe is something to ponder.
So I ask.
What type of brain would be needed to speak every language that exists on the planet, as a few unknown members of our species are able to do in this aeon?
There is credible evidence of this.
What type of brain would be needed to be able to ground a ship in a seaport; kill a member of the crew by extracting his heart without ever touching him; and make hollow the inside of melons without prior knowledge of their location in this aeon?
There is a credible story.
What type of brain would be required to make one invulnerable to bullets? Or to make a person disappear in this aeon?
There is a credible story.
What kind of brain would be required to raise the dead, have it walk to a specified place of burial and then make it die again so it can be properly buried?
What kind of brain to bi-locate at Will?, to Transmorph? To fly?....
All of these things are happening in our aeon, have been happening before our aeon, and will be happening after.
Neither, the individuals who do these seeming impossible things, nor those who witness them speak about them much.
For example, I met one person who was present in Rwanda during the period of the genocide. I was told about warriors who were able to defy bullets and other such phenomenon. Upon coming back to the west, the person spoke with awe and bewilderment, ending each account with the words “nobody talks about this shit.”
Some members of our species can remember their past lives, but what kind of brain would it take to remember one’s future life?
What I am saying is that in every known culture around the world, their exists individuals who do things deemed impossible for our age. They also know other Truths,,,about beings living in the sea, in the earth, with us on the earth, and not just those who are commonly thought to come from up above. They know about the past aeons and about the future.
And what of those living amongst us, who look like us, but are not us? And what kind of brain would it take to be able to recognize these beings whose true nature is invisible to the common eye? And are these beings of a past aeon or a future? Are they our past, or our future?
In one sense, you may say that if the equipment exists, but people don’t use it, because they know how to, then no shifts will occur. Or, if the few people who figure out how to use it, keep it a secret, then there is co-existence; a minute few who know and the masses who don’t know. This is the great triangle or pyramid the knowers at the top and others at the base. This is the model existence of the universe as we as we are able to discern. The ages must always co-existence because matri/patricide and infanticide would wipe out a species. There isn’t a break and a vast shift occurs out of nowhere. There is no tabula rasa.
As a species, we have dedicated more time to finding differences among us (of there is none), than working on understanding our commonality. This is the benefit of some aspects of cognitive science. The knowledge is exists, but we generally don’t know HOW or WHERE to look for it. And it is within this context that the dictum “Know Thyself” becomes a paradox. Until we equally value each member of the human family, each human culture; then we will never what breakthroughs have been made. The west was “won” by genocide and the mass destruction of sacred elements of native cultures. When considers the absurdity of destroying the stone sculpture of the Aztec serpent god Quetzalcoatl and replacing with it the catholic cross, and of forcing Beninese natives to destroy their ancestral Asen; then one truly understands how much time we have wasted in our attempt to get at the Truth.
To revert to the original post, in a very real sense, my speck of dust tells me, that if the ages didn’t co-exist, there would be no such thing as “unredeemed elements of our overall consciousness.” From whence do we redeem them, and where will they abide when they are redeemed?
In the end, all I am saying is that given the abysmal failure of Western (style) academia, and of many Western esoteric groups and given that some much is hidden; we cannot make blanket statements about what does or does not exist. And we must be careful about what we think counts as credible evidence. We are a species divided by varying types and degrees of prejudice and we can’t know really what breakthroughs the “other” is making or has made. We must always remain open, and open to infinite possibilities…Nuit’s blanket is the “head which is not.”
The only Truth Seekers worthy of the name Mystic are those who have travelled far and wide, above and below; within and without physically and otherwise, and they never ever ever make absolute statements about existence.
“Hermes to hear, Dionysius to touch and Pan to behold.”
Love is the Law, Love under Will.
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@ThelemicMage said
"
I meant Aral, but to back up what others' were saying and I tried to explain, is that I got confused because there is an Ariel in Air, and in a completely different hierarchy.
"I see.
It is ok, no harm done.
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Thank you for your time, Quad Nine 9.
@Quad Nine 9 said
"So to continue with Frater INRI’s questions…mindful that we are talking about our cognitive capacity as human beings.
What neuroscience breakthroughs are we talking about exactly?
One primary example is recent breakthrough in our understanding that it is the linguistic faculty which makes us uniquely human rather than our ability to walk upright; that is homo loquax versus homo sapiens. The Cognitive Science of Religion has also recently “discovered” that knowledge (omniscience) is the definition of God. The Cognitive Linguists for their part has also “discovered” that God is a conceptual metaphor. "
Ehm, I am sorry, but I will have to speak my mind (without gettin' too morbid
what you say above can hardly be considered a breakthrough in cognitive (neuro)science. There are various levels of scientific research, for sure, and coming up with new terminology or just observing and noting new facts about the human brain is far from scientific revelation or a significant breakthrough, IMHO.
Dealing with ideas and mental concepts, well, it is only a part of Yetzirah level of consciousness, and we know there are more profound and Absolute (non relative, not-dualistic) realms to be realized and experienced not just discussed.
In cognitive neuroscience nothing solid has yet been proven about God. I have had more than a share of postgraduate studies in this field, and I promise you, scientists in this particular field are ages from discovering anything worth mentioning about God (mainly due to their inherent focus only on the physical aspects of our being).
Maybe this will help:
www.neh.gov/about/awards/jefferson-lecture/tom-wolfe-lectureCognitive neuroscience often (and still!) portrays human beings (using term homo sapiens or laquax sapiens or any other alternative name, see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternative_names_for_the_human_specie) as animals, beasts, as it were.
And being able to articulate out thoughts is only one of cognitive processes in the brain that is unique to humans, yes; but that does not mean that only humans communicate. Dolphins for example are said to employ complicated means of communication, far more sophisticated that humans...
While we are at it, there are other cognitive processes that are more unique and important to humans, IMO.
Yes, there are books that try to conceptually ling the brain (with all its ins and outs) with God consciousness (www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=neuroscience+god) but that is all there is to it. From a really scientific point of view.
I would propose a field that is not as solidly scientific but nevertheless very descriptive and useful in terms of mapping levels of human consciousness: transpersonal psychology and the work of say, Ken Wilber.
@Quad Nine 9 said
"In response to your inclination “to disagree with the notion that neural circuits…brains[s] are all we have”, I will simply quote an African idiom; “but for its head, the snake would be a belt.” I am here referencing the primacy of the brain. You may cut your foot off today and still be able to respond to my post. But try cutting off your head, well don’t cut off your head, just take your brains out and try and respond to this post. "
Interesting point.
But, you know, there are really good empirical researches being performed as we speak that affirm exactly what you propose. In more serious terms LOL: nonlocality of consciousness.
Look into the life work of a Dr. Ian Stevenson, if you will. He has provided a lot of evidence that speak in favor of consciousness existing without the brain, i.e. that it "survives" outside of the cut off heads.
I can dig up some quotes from his work for you, if you are interested.@Quad Nine 9 said
"Evoking four kings…willingly. Well all you really need is Will isn’t it? The whole aim of initiating is to get past the trappings of ritual and external paraphernalia and simply control your universe with your mind. To quote the ThelemicMage “it’s as if you have the entire movement of the Earth and the Stars at your Will, completely.”"
Yes, well, to tell you the truth, for me, this is only a paragraph with no real-life application. We can talk about this, yes, but I'd rater stay with my feet on the ground, so to speak.
I had a very, very real close encounter with one of the aforementioned kings and it was not pretty. I would not even in my dreams evoke (God forbid invoke) all of them. I am not *that * naive. LOL@Quad Nine 9 said
"Cognitive scientists have identified what they term as “recurring symbols” in every human culture (so far known). These include, the cross, circle, colors, a holy spirit, notions of left and right etc. One recurring symbol among the species (not yet addressed by cognitive scientists), the existence of so-called gods, aliens, extra-terrestrials which resemble the human brain. "
So if I understand you correctly, you maintain that cognitive science have identified certain concepts that aim at something beyond the brain or...?
Well if that's the case, hell, yeah. Good for them.@Quad Nine 9 said
"In the end, all I am saying is that given the abysmal failure of Western (style) academia, and of many Western esoteric groups and given that some much is hidden; we cannot make blanket statements about what does or does not exist. And we must be careful about what we think counts as credible evidence. We are a species divided by varying types and degrees of prejudice and we can’t know really what breakthroughs the “other” is making or has made. We must always remain open, and open to infinite possibilities…Nuit’s blanket is the “head which is not.”
The only Truth Seekers worthy of the name Mystic are those who have travelled far and wide, above and below; within and without physically and otherwise, and they never ever ever make absolute statements about existence.
"93
I can understand that and I agree to some extent. I would add, however, that not only traveling far and wide is needed, not even by far. Experiences are needed, direct and intimate and real experiences. Without them all is but an empty dust, IMO.
I will dare to quote this, it fits in perfectly:
"I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice."
(AL I:57).Certainty, not faith?
Only direct experiences can yield that, HGA and Gods willing, of course.93 93/93
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Frater INRI,
I believe you have demonstrated, as I indicated, the abysmal failure of academia. Yet, there is a form of dependency? (not sure if this is the correct word),perhaps unrequited attention given to this false knowledge. Academics rarely defer to mystical tradition. But there are some interesting “fringe” disciplines which seem to be providing a foundation for a shift. For example, Spiritual Anthropology (researchers are now reporting honestly about their field experiences instead lying to further their careers) and Western Esotericism (basically the study of occult thought in the west), a few articles have been written on Crowley. And then there is hope, that cognitive scientists may yet develop their third eye.
Could you say; what, in you humble opinion, are the cognitive processes which are more unique and important to humans?
I understand and agree with the point about the non-locality of consciousness, and the other example/s you infer. Against the backdrop of the question of aeons, what does it mean, for the “vast evolution in consciousness” which impacts society? And also importantly, what does it say about what or who we are whatever “we” call ourselves? And what does it mean “we” are capable of, in the light of the existence of “unredeemed aspects of consciousness.”
About the four kings; my apologies, I responded in a general to a specific question. In my original reference, I was simply quoting the prayer with the older entities. Yes, the encounters are not always pretty, some do not survive. I am not inviting anyone to evoke all of them at once. Yet, what a joy, when one gets to the place where the encounters are “pretty.”
Well, traveling is experience isn’t it. I was thinking of Paracelsus when I wrote that:
“the universities do not teach all things, so a doctor must seek out old wives, gypsies, sorcerers, wandering tribes, and such outlaws and take lessons from them. A doctor must be a traveler. Knowledge is experience”
(Paracelsus 1973:160)Love is the Law, Love under Will
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@Quad Nine 9 said
"I believe you have demonstrated, as I indicated, the abysmal failure of academia. Yet, there is a form of dependency? (not sure if this is the correct word),perhaps unrequited attention given to this false knowledge. Academics rarely defer to mystical tradition. But there are some interesting “fringe” disciplines which seem to be providing a foundation for a shift. For example, Spiritual Anthropology (researchers are now reporting honestly about their field experiences instead lying to further their careers) and Western Esotericism (basically the study of occult thought in the west), a few articles have been written on Crowley. And then there is hope, that cognitive scientists may yet develop their third eye."
It is not false knowledge, only limited. And I am not advocating any of that mental BS, by the way. Mystical/magical experiences are so much more real (to me) than all books on psychology and/or neuroscience.
So we are in total agreement here, I believe.Yeah, let them scry Aethyrs. That will teach em'!
LOL@Quad Nine 9 said
"Could you say; what, in you humble opinion, are the cognitive processes which are more unique and important to humans?"
Meta-cognition, being aware of awareness, is one of them.
Then there is learning (basic cognitive process), not only based on trial-and-error, but based on inspiration, which comes from within (beyond the scope of neuroscience).
Decision making is another one; again, not based on only previosu experiences, but on intuition as well, taking in the Beri'ah energies as well.@Quad Nine 9 said
"I understand and agree with the point about the non-locality of consciousness, and the other example/s you infer. Against the backdrop of the question of aeons, what does it mean, for the “vast evolution in consciousness” which impacts society? And also importantly, what does it say about what or who we are whatever “we” call ourselves? And what does it mean “we” are capable of, in the light of the existence of “unredeemed aspects of consciousness.”"
Indeed.
@Quad Nine 9 said
"About the four kings; my apologies, I responded in a general to a specific question. In my original reference, I was simply quoting the prayer with the older entities. Yes, the encounters are not always pretty, some do not survive. I am not inviting anyone to evoke all of them at once. Yet, what a joy, when one gets to the place where the encounters are “pretty.”"
Someday maybe, but not yet (for me)...
@Quad Nine 9 said
"Well, traveling is experience isn’t it. I was thinking of Paracelsus when I wrote that:
“the universities do not teach all things, so a doctor must seek out old wives, gypsies, sorcerers, wandering tribes, and such outlaws and take lessons from them. A doctor must be a traveler. Knowledge is experience”
(Paracelsus 1973:160)
Love is the Law, Love under Will"Lovely quote, thank you.
And tnx for interesting exchange.
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Quad Nine 9:
Your argument for the concurrence of aeons doesn't fit with the reception of the Book of the Law.
To say that the aeons run concurrently in some timeless sense bypasses the need of the people to understand what currently works best for the instruction of humanity because of where humanity is in time.
The fact that a few in the past may have been able to accomplish incredible feats does not mean that the conditions were right for* most *of humanity to come to the same knowledge and ability. In relationship to humanity writ large, the few who may have been able to accomplish such feats were a drop in the bucket. They were the exception to the norm. However, when speaking of the aeons, we are specifically referring to the norm for humanity during a given period of time.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The Aeon of Osiris was that period of history when the baseline level of functioning of the typical adult human has been Ruach, or ego-consciousness. (Being closer to us in history, we can see more finely its gradual development. Besides the accelerating urbanization and primitive technology, we can see 5th C. BCE Greece as a critical time when the architecture of the Ruach was well articulated. We can see late 1st Millennium times when important legends showed a young, underdeveloped ego-center, and later times when the hero figures matured. Then, probably about the time of the Magna Carta, we can see the "Act III" of its development in the explosive march of liberty, technology, etc.
The Aeon of Horus, which began in or near 1904, is that period of time within which the baseline level of functioning of the typical adult human will emerge as Neshamah, or superconsciousness."
My new word today is "dianoetic." Our Father Iamblichus says (De Mysteriis Aegyptiorum, III, III), "When we are awake we employ, for the most part, the life which is common with the body. except when we separate ourselves entirely from it by pure intellectual and dianoetic energies."
The Old Timers (from say the beginning of Hellenic philosophy to the first few centuries AD) used to speak in glowing terms of what they called Reason or Intellect. The Platonists, Gnostics, and Neoplatonists used the Greek term nous, which is variously translated "reason," "mind," or "intellect," and spoke glowingly of it as being the next best thing to God. I've always assumed they were really talking about Neshamah or Binah, or maybe even Chokmah, because they spoke of it as a special state of consciousness that was far-removed from ordinary life.
But maybe they really did mean "intellect," more-or-less as we mean the word today. My dictionary says "dianoetic" means discerned by reason as opposed to intuition; so dianoetic energies would pertain to self-consciousness, not super-consciousness. At that stage of the Aeon of Osiris, could it be that a purified form of the consciousness that you and I live in every day seemed Godlike?
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Great word.
And yes... to your last question... I think the answer is a clear Yes.