The Four Worlds
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I've studied Qabalah almost exclusively from Crowley's writings through Liber 777 and Other Qabalistic Essays for over three years now, and I honestly haven't come across anything dealing with the Four Worlds.
I've done a search here, and Jim's responses to some of the threads were quite interesting and fun to read, but I couldn't find anything that dealt with hard academic sources for further research.
Obviously, if this topic can be found dealing anywhere in the writings of Crowley, Levi, or even say Kaplan or Frater Achad, those would be of primary interest to me.
Many thanks in advance.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Have you seen my analysis of them in Visions & Voices? (I thought that I had reproduced that section here, in the Visions & Voices forum, but I think I was remembering the Three Aeons thread instead.)
Do you have specific questions?
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I suppose, upon further research, I should've titled this thread "The Four Worlds and the Five Souls."
I just don't really know anything on the two aforementioned aspects of Qabalah and was looking more or less for an introductory, beginner text into the matter.
If you don't mind my asking, what works did you reference to develop your own understanding of the four worlds and the five souls?
Thumbing through my copy of 777 as I type this, I notice Crowley attributes the Four Worlds to paths: Yetzirah is attributed to The Fool, Briah to The Hanged Man, Atziluth to The Aeon, and Assiah to The Universe. There is, of course, a myriad of correspondences connecting the worlds to these paths, principally to me being the four elements.
However, in reflecting on what you've written here, stating that each of the four worlds contains the ten Sephiroth, I can't help but see that opening a myriad problems for me.
I've always been prone to seeing the paths as distinct from the Sephiroth; am I making a mistake here? I've always seen the paths as more active, as of "going," while the Sephiroth themselves were more passive and stationary, as that of "being."
Hell, even as I read that last statement, I'm already finding it easier to see "being" as a form of "going." Maybe that's the way I ought to start looking at it?
Conclusively, would it be so that, even as Kether is in Malkuth, so do all the Sephiroth bear a polar relationship to each other? Would this relationship also apply not only between the paths and the Sephiroth, but the paths unto themselves?
Is there a Fool in the Universe? <!-- s:L) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile-l.gif" alt=":L)" title="Smile-L" /><!-- s:L) -->
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Zalthos said
"I just don't really know anything on the two aforementioned aspects of Qabalah and was looking more or less for an introductory, beginner text into the matter."
That's exactly what I wrote - a few pages on the Worlds, and a few more later on Qabalistic psychology.
"If you don't mind my asking, what works did you reference to develop your own understanding of the four worlds and the five souls? "
There's almost nothing existing. That's one reason I wrote the section (but, also, because it's fundamental to the book it's in - Crowley's visions of the 30 Aethyrs are, foremost, a trip through the 10 sephiroth in Yetzirtah, Briah, and Atziluth). Mostly I draw on basic definitions, and 30+ years of gathering scraps here and there, and directly experiencing the worlds and their boundaries.
For all intents and purposes, I probably am the point of reference (in print) for this particular topic.
"Thumbing through my copy of 777 as I type this, I notice Crowley attributes the Four Worlds to paths: Yetzirah is attributed to The Fool, Briah to The Hanged Man, Atziluth to The Aeon, and Assiah to The Universe. There is, of course, a myriad of correspondences connecting the worlds to these paths, principally to me being the four elements. "
That's because they are attributed to the four elements. That's the only real consideration to that attribution. The cross-referencing to YHVH is the most important thing he gave in that tabulation.
"However, in reflecting on what you've written here, stating that each of the four worlds contains the ten Sephiroth, I can't help but see that opening a myriad problems for me. "
Yes, that's the single most important point to get: The entire Tree of Life exists in each of the four Worlds. - One can break it down differently for diagrammatic purposes - to make certain points (e.g., by classifying them according to where in a specific initiatory system one transitions from one World to the next), and this gives the appearance that different parts of the Tree relate to different worlds - but that's just a convenience for a special purpose. (It reminds me BTW that a similar discussion of the Worlds is in my book The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'., customized for that specific purpose; but the one in V&V, though similar, is better.)
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I've always been prone to seeing the paths as distinct from the Sephiroth; am I making a mistake here?"I don't know what you mean from "distinct from." Yes, they're different sorts of things, primarily the experience of transitioning from one sephirah to another. Yes, they are kinetic, moving, energetic, etc.
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There's a certain amount of that, yes. Don't get too rigid, though. The relationship especially shows in the grade designations (5=6, 2=9, etc.), and those expressed relationships are significant. OTOH each sephirah has a distinctive relationship with each of the others**.**"Would this relationship also apply not only between the paths and the Sephiroth, but the paths unto themselves?
Is there a Fool in the Universe? <!-- s:L) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile-l.gif" alt=":L)" title="Smile-L" /><!-- s:L) --> "
Had, I hope not!
I do think, though, that there is a kind of "echo" for the bottom half of the Tree - that, stepping forth from Malkuth along Tav, there is an "echo" of Aleph. I could be seeing too much into this, but there's a sense in which it seems true to me (that is, authentic to experience). This would explain Achad's confusion in thinking that the Tree needed to be stood on its head. However, the "echo" breaks down on the attainment of Tiphereth - after there, everything snaps "awake" out of that particular "dream." (This, too, would explain Achad's perceptions, since he couldn't really justify his model above Tiphereth.)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
It seems a lot of the threads I start here wind up as one-on-one exchanges between you and me. While I could probably read deeper into that, let me stop where I'm at and thank you for your prompt responses.
Not to go off topic, but in our present world of post-Crowley Thelemic research and initiation, I'm hard-pressed to find any author aside from Crowley that's really worth my time. Everyone really seems bent on pitching their angle, taking advantage of the veiling symbolism he utilized to spin their own game, and they typically do a pretty shitty job of it.
At $50 plus shipping, with a wide array of other relevant (and significantly cheaper) books I'm still dying to add to my collection, its gonna take me a while to get to purchasing your works...but I will go out on a limb and let you know you're one of the few guys out there I would consider worth looking into.
As most of Crowley's works date back over a century, with all the sociopolitical turmoil over the A A and the OTO and their successive lineages following his death, the present state of things really seems quite depressing, and the work being fleshed out by any Frater or Soror in any lineage typically does little more (by my own researches) than expose the veiled symbolism of Sex Magick that Crowley held so sacred.
I don't have to read your books to know you're an exception; thanks for breaking the standard.
Best wishes to you and your's. I wish T.O.T. had a branch in Atlanta!
Love is the law, love under will.
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You're welcome.
No, purchasing a book is not the price of admission around here
Since many people on the forum have one or more of my books already, and since that's where the information was most accessible AFAIK, I suggested it. But... I understand the cost issue, and am happy you're actually acquiring books in general (a fading habit of enormous value). - In the meantime, I hope you've gotten all the free stuff from <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.thelema.org/publications">www.thelema.org/publications</a><!-- w --> that interests you (there's quite a lot of material there).I emailed you something in this regard. Perhaps it will be useful.
I'm complimented by your opinion that I break the mold of people who "typically do a pretty shitty job" <vbg>. I am, foremost, a teacher, and I bring whatever I have to that.
@Zalthos said
"At $50 plus shipping"
As a side note: We pay domestic postage. For that matter, so does Amazon. So it's just the $49 (no tax, no postage/handling).
PS - You won't find me "[exposing] the veiled symbolism of Sex Magick Crowley held so sacred" very much. Most of the time, you'll find me pointing out that the sex thing (in addition to being very pleasurable and personally reward) is a further veil, not the final answer. I generally hold that magical sex is far better than sex magick most of the time.
"I wish T.O.T. had a branch in Atlanta!"
Remind me... was that you that I discussed this with in the past? Ireferred someone from Atlanta to our Chiefs to discuss certain things, and, last I heard, they made brief contact that disappeared. (You don't have to answer that here, or anywhere - my point is that, if you're interested, there are conversations you might want to have.)
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PS - I just got my email to you bounced back. Apparently the email address with which you registered on the forum is "disabled or discontinued." That means you aren't getting many of the benefits (notifications, etc.). I encourage you to update it.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Thanks for clearing that up about the cost of shipping. I've never purchased anything from Amazon that didn't cost at least $3.99 for shipping, so I went ahead and assumed the same for your publications.
You know, I've always been surprised by how many people "read Crowley" without ever seeking to own physical copies of his work. Although, I suppose that leaves better odds for myself.
I've gone as far as giving away copies of Liber AL and Liber ABA to seekers, though.
I'm proud to say I own nearly 150 books sourced from or very closely connected to the A A curriculum, but this includes Crowley's works. I made the investment and managed to procure a few rarities of his as well; wasn't easy, given the history of my financial circumstances.
How unfortunate about my e-mail! I tried to update it to my frequently accessed account, and it seems the board doesn't take kindly to gmail accounts? It doesn't seem to want to accept it.
I must've had this problem when I first registered and simply never used the new e-mail account I registered to create my membership here. I'm sending you a PM with an e-mail address you can always be sure to reach me at.
I'll be sure to friend you on facebook, too.
Thanks again, Jim.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Yes, Gmail accounts are blocked. They represent too severe a security risk for the forum. - I'll check your PM.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Thanks again for your helpful contributions.
I've been giving a lot of attention to Magick in Theory and Practice in my study as of late (which I just now realize is a part of Book 4
), particularly the early chapters.I was reflecting on the significance the Formulae of the Elemental Weapons have in connection to the Four Worlds when I came across this thread here where you said:
@Jim Eshelman said
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The three Sephiroth: Among many other things, that "fire triangle" refers to the Supernals all by itself - and the arrangement of the three circles within it reinforces this enormously. - I'm not saying that's the only thing that it could be, just that it's one of the most obvious, usual, and perhaps compelling things that it could be.The best symbols aren't in books
...I wouldn't say that the Sephiroth are the same as any groupings of angels (though one could say that the Qabalistic groupings of choirs of angels are essentially the same as the Sephiroth in Yetzirah)."
I have to say, I'd love to get further elaboration on this context. This whole thing has piqued my interest to the utmost.
I feel more pulled to your work than ever, and I look forward to owning my own copies sooner than I expected to.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Zalthos said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The three Sephiroth: Among many other things, that "fire triangle" refers to the Supernals all by itself - and the arrangement of the three circles within it reinforces this enormously. - I'm not saying that's the only thing that it could be, just that it's one of the most obvious, usual, and perhaps compelling things that it could be.The best symbols aren't in books
...I wouldn't say that the Sephiroth are the same as any groupings of angels (though one could say that the Qabalistic groupings of choirs of angels are essentially the same as the Sephiroth in Yetzirah)."
I have to say, I'd love to get further elaboration on this context. This whole thing has piqued my interest to the utmost."
I'm happy this was of value to you. In elaborating further, I'd like to respond to the part you want to hear about... and I'm guessing it's the sentence, "The Qabalistic groupings of choirs of angels are essentially the same as the sephiroth in Yetzirah."
This is an unusual expression of things, admittedly. It's consistent with very old usages, though I can't exactly say that it's standard. The root idea is that Atziluth is the domain of Divinity, Briah or archangels, and Yetzirah of angels (among other classes of beings). There is strong Rabbinical precedent for treating the sephiroth in Atziluth as being indistinguishable from the Divine Names attributed to each - Chesed in Atziluth is El (AL) in this formulation. So, while in normal conversation I'd more likely say that the archangels are expressions of their respective sephiroth in Briah, the old approach could be extended to say that, in at least one valuable sense, "Arcangels of the sephiroth are essentially the same as the sephiroth in Briah."
E.g., Gabriel is essentially the same as Yesod in Briah. I think the better way of understanding this is that our experience of Gabriel is essentially the same as our experience of Yesod in Briah. However, Rabbinical tradition gives us an avenue for a simpler statement.
Extending this further, one could say the same thing about angels and Yetzirah; and, in the sephirothic hierarchies, that especially means the Choirs of Angels. Thus, the Beni Elohim are essentially the same as Hod in Yetzirah - our experience of them is fundamentally the same as the most accessible human experience of of that sephirah in that World.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
That was great! I'm finding all this increasingly adds a deeper dimension of functionality to what was (for me) a tangled mess of Hebrew to sift through
, ala 777.I have to admit, I was hoping you could comment on the other part of the quote in bold, namely that the "'fire triangle' refers to the Supernals all by itself."
As 777 gives the Worlds an Elemental correspondence via the Elemental Paths, my mind instantly went to "Supernals = Atziluth" with the quote above, as I've been attributing Atziluth with a general fire correspondence.
I did a search here on "The Wake World" and its interesting that I came across this thread when I didn't find it in my first search. I must've looked specifically in the Qabalah sub-forum, or some such:
@Jim Eshelman said
"In the specific case of my Introduction, I was making the point that the A.'.A.'. grade thresholds that involve ascending the Middle Pillar another step also step up a world. That doesn't mean (for example) that "Tiphereth exists in Briah," just that the completion of the Dominus Liminis work is specifically an opening to Briah which is concurrent with an opening to Tiphereth - so that 4=7 in the A.'.A.'. sense is a grade of Netzach in Yetzirah, while 5=6 is a grade of Tiphereth in Briah."
This really got my head reeling, in a good way. What I've highlighted in bold is probably all the answer I really need on the subject, now that I read it again.
Thank you so much, Jim. You've really helped me to streamline my whole approach with these few details.
Love is the law, love under will.
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You two. I love you two.
93. 93. 93. -
@Zalthos said
"I have to admit, I was hoping you could comment on the other part of the quote in bold, namely that the "'fire triangle' refers to the Supernals all by itself.""
I didn't intend to relate it to the element Fire. I wasonly saying "an equilateral triangle with a single point upward is a symbol of the Supernals." This is primarily because the Supernal triangle is in that shape, but for thousands of years the same shape has been a symbol of deity.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
While I've been meditating on the Four Worlds a lot lately, I'm coming under the impression that Yetzirah is "sensibly" dominate in terms of relatable experience. I use the word "sensible" as inclusive of mental states of being as well: it houses our fears, inhibitions, confused feelings, as well as our pride, convictions, and hopes.
In my own brief experience with these Qabalistic terms, I would estimate Briah to be a quality of perception in which one is actively "listening" to the intangible contents of the sensorium, where things have their being before being manifested in the material world.
I, personally, have spent a considerable amount of time making very forcible attempts to stop the spontaneous activity of my mind. Unfortunately, my efforts have resulted in little success, and I am beginning to believe I have only been furthering the complications of the initial problem by creating the additional content of forcible actions, whether these serve as defense against the offense of my subconscious restrictions or not.
I'm beginning to realize that the only control I have, the only escape that will really free me from being caught up, wrapped up, and essentially lost in a storm thoughts and senses is by truly paying attention to those very same thoughts and senses with all the fullness I can muster. And I feel like success here is opening to Briah.
Just like if there's a song stuck in our heads while attempting yoga, if we pay attention to it and focus only on it, it disappears; "but there is that which remains." When the ordeals have passed, there is still a Universe beheld by the Senses.
I'm seeing a lot of correspondences to Mahasatipatthana here as well, which is very exciting for me. I would say that actions are in Assiah, sensation of action is in Yetzirah, unpleasant or pleasant sensation of action is still in Yetzirah, and perception of unpleasant or pleasant sensation of action is in Briah.
And if we were to "put the Aeons on the Tree," so to speak, while maintaining the integrity of the A.'.A.'. system, I would have to conclude that the present Aeon is a "Briatic" one, and a pretty awesome time to be Alive Again.
I'd love to read your thoughts on any of this. Thanks again, Jim.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Zalthos said
"While I've been meditating on the Four Worlds a lot lately, I'm coming under the impression that Yetzirah is "sensibly" dominate in terms of relatable experience. I use the word "sensible" as inclusive of mental states of being as well: it houses our fears, inhibitions, confused feelings, as well as our pride, convictions, and hopes."
Exactly right. In fact, the Qabalistic teaching is that humanity is primarily a Yetziratic species. Though we happen to inhabit physical bodies, we're still straining at that. (Systems of initiation have to get us more thoroughly into our bodies before trying to get us out of them. Most of us start out living in our heads too much. Etc. etc.) In any case, the majority of human experience is within Yetzirah.
There's a numerical key to this. "The Secret Name of the World of Yetzirah" [longer story...] is MH = 45; and Adam (ADM, "humanity") = 45.
"In my own brief experience with these Qabalistic terms, I would estimate Briah to be a quality of perception in which one is actively "listening" to the intangible contents of the sensorium, where things have their being before being manifested in the material world."
You may be on the right track, with your wording having distinctive meaning to you; but I don't completely recognize it in your words. If by "listening" you mean that one is detached from, or transcendent to, Yetzirah, and therefore in a position to witness it as an "outer" phenomena, then, yes, that's one characteristic of Briah. - Also, your "listening" description sounds like pratyahara, which is certainly one important gateway to Briatic consciousness.
"I'm beginning to realize that the only control I have, the only escape that will really free me from being caught up, wrapped up, and essentially lost in a storm thoughts and senses is by truly paying attention to those very same thoughts and senses with all the fullness I can muster. And I feel like success here is opening to Briah."
Yes. As mentioned above: essentially pratyahara.
"I'm seeing a lot of correspondences to Mahasatipatthana here as well, which is very exciting for me. I would say that actions are in Assiah, sensation of action is in Yetzirah, unpleasant or pleasant sensation of action is still in Yetzirah, and perception of unpleasant or pleasant sensation of action is in Briah."
There's something like that going on... but the skandas don't seem to match up to the worlds quite as closely as I'd like. It's definitely "in the neighborhood," though. (I'm just saying that I've been drawn back several times to try to match these up, and I've never gone away authentically believing I've get it pegged in a no B.S. way.)
"And if we were to "put the Aeons on the Tree," so to speak, while maintaining the integrity of the A.'.A.'. system, I would have to conclude that the present Aeon is a "Briatic" one, and a pretty awesome time to be Alive Again.
"Read my article on the Aeons (an early version of what became one section of Visions & Voices) elsewhere on this forum.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Though we happen to inhabit physical bodies, we're still straining at that. (Systems of initiation have to get us more thoroughly into our bodies before trying to get us out of them. Most of us start out living in our heads too much. Etc. etc.) In any case, the majority of human experience is within Yetzirah."
After reflecting upon this, I'm much more enthusiastic about starting an asana regiment. Its seeming more and more like a refreshing break from my constant confrontation of Yetzirah ordeals, as I see it strictly a practice in Assiah (should I be corrected here?).
On that note, would you perhaps have any suggestions as to where I can find a wider array of asana postures? I took Patanjali's words on asana as leaving the options rather wide open, as it is how one holds the position that counts, not necessarily the posture itself. I would, however, like to try on as many of the different orthodox postures as I can before selecting one for a regiment, so I'm hoping you might be able to suggest some resources in this regard.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. As mentioned above: essentially pratyahara."
I found a great thread on here with a lot of good information. I've been giving heavy consideration to the Sun as the object of meditation, perhaps with a performance of Resh before beginning. However, I have a low understanding of the movements of the Sun, with respect to the solstices and equinoxes specifically. I suppose the best place to begin would be by simply going outside and starting my practice. After watching the movements for myself and making strict observations each time, particularly at the equinoxes and solstices, I'm sure I would gain enough understanding on the meanings of the aforementioned to be firmly relaxed in this specific practice. Maybe your Instant Astrologer book would be a helpful aid in this respect. I'm assuming the information I'm seeking is more along the lines of basic astronomy, though.
@Jim Eshelman said
"There's something like that going on... but the skandas don't seem to match up to the worlds quite as closely as I'd like. It's definitely "in the neighborhood," though."
Gotcha.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Read my article on the Aeons (an early version of what became one section of Visions & Voices) elsewhere on this forum."
For convenience's sake, the article mentioned can be read here.
That was a great read. Frankly, I haven't spent much time with the Qabalistic Psychology terms you've studied, but its interesting to see them incorporated in that light. Certainly worth further investigation.
Its surprising to me that no one in that whole thread asked why you didn't address the Aeon of Ma'at. Crowley obviously alludes to it in many works. I suppose your work deals with our history up to the present in the given context of Aeons, and there is obviously much to be done to bring the Aeon of Horus into fruition. But I feel like the article gives the impression that there are only three to know about (which, I suppose, is really the case, since the Aeon of Ma'at has yet to begin), which I couldn't help but find a little misleading.
I also would of loved to see what you would have called the Aeon of Ma'at in the context of the Aeon of the Mother, the Aeon of the Father, and the Aeon of the Child.
Its great writing nonetheless. Thanks again for taking the time to write with me.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Zalthos said
"On that note, would you perhaps have any suggestions as to where I can find a wider array of asana postures?"
Almost any posture will do. A basic sitting, basic lying, basic kneeling, basic standing etc. position are about all you need. But you can pick any ol' yoga picture book from the physical fitness section and find hundreds of positions. (Or the Kama Sutra.)
"Its surprising to me that no one in that whole thread asked why you didn't address the Aeon of Ma'at."
Why? We're hundreds to thousands of years from it. I doubt that anyone, even a Magus, has more than a vague, theoretical impression of what comes next. It's a non-entity of no practical importance, so no need to mention it.
"I also would of loved to see what you would have called the Aeon of Ma'at in the context of the Aeon of the Mother, the Aeon of the Father, and the Aeon of the Child."
Ask me again after the Aeon dawns. It's two easy to draw superficial conclusions (VERY easy), and these may not be accurate or relevant. Furthermore, we have no way at present of confirming whether they're relevant or not!
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Almost any posture will do. A basic sitting, basic lying, basic kneeling, basic standing etc. position are about all you need. But you can pick any ol' yoga picture book from the physical fitness section and find hundreds of positions. (Or the Kama Sutra.)"
There's a lot of crappy yoga books out there, whose legitimacy I can't be sure of, but since almost any posture will do, I suppose it doesn't really matter where the authors of the books get their poses. Thanks.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Why? We're hundreds to thousands of years from it. I doubt that anyone, even a Magus, has more than a vague, theoretical impression of what comes next. It's a non-entity of no practical importance, so no need to mention it. ... It's two easy to draw superficial conclusions (VERY easy), and these may not be accurate or relevant. Furthermore, we have no way at present of confirming whether they're relevant or not!"
As I alluded to in my previous post, I'd figured this was the reasoning behind it. I don't feel like leaving it out did anything to take away from the article from a practical standpoint, and I was merely curious about it. Certainly seems more productive to address the matters at hand rather than theorize about what has yet to come.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
So, my copy of 777 is an old Weiser from 1973, although I do also refer to tables in the appendixes of my big blue Liber ABA. I have some questions about some of the columns as well as some curiosities about your 776 1/2.
Columns 99 and 100 are the Archangels of Assiah and the Angels of Assiah respectively. As I have been seeing Archangels as dwelling in Briah and the Choirs as Yetzirah, I have taken this at face value as saying "the Briah of Assiah" and "the Yetzirah of Assiah." I won't waste any time with the conclusions I've come to from reading it this way, as I'd like to know if you agree with the line of logic thus far established.
Does 776 1/2 elaborate on any of the aforementioned columns? My Latin is still in an elementary state and I can make out neither column 92, "The Angelic Functions in the World of Yetzirah," nor column 94, which translates the Heavens of Assiah from the Hebrew in the column before it, nor the translation of the Palaces of Briah, etc. Does 776 1/2 explain what's being said here, and does it have anything to add in understanding all the columns related to the worlds? There are a great many.
As a side note, I'm wondering if anyone has to read the four worlds in any sense of Ain as Atzulith, Ain Soph as Briah, Ain Soph Aur as Yetzirah, and Kether as Assiah; this possibility occurred to me shortly before making this post.
Love is the law, love under will.