Trouble after LBRP
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Unless you repeat the experiment, I have no evidence that the LBRP is the cause. Remember; correlation does not imply causation.
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Agree with Takamba.
I would add that I'd expect something of this sort from the Invoking Pentagram Ritual in some situations, but not with the banishing.
Oh, unless, of course, job conditions are all bullshit. A solid banishing (and, especially, a series of them) tends to various effects that make it more difficult to tolerate bullshit and act at odds with your True Will. That then tends to make your behavior the sort of thing that can cause various problems at work. IOW, you're the cause (though possibly for good reason), and you have the power to persevere more patiently and mindfully (while contemplating whether to get a different job).
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I've noticed the same thing as PainMeridian. I did a year of working with the LBRP and keeping a journal. The negitive results I got were slow in progression but culminated in loosing my job, huge blow outs and betrayal by my mother, a feeling of disconnect with my spiritual center, just an overall disappointing experience. To this day I wont touch the LBRP because of the subconscious association I have with it now.
It's likely that it could have been something astrological, or perhaps a period of weeding out things I no longer needed in my life. But, as a single parent I've got to make money. It took 8 months after abstaining from LBRPs before I had a job again... the same one I originally lost.
Years later I began work with a form of LBRP using the inverted pentagram. I had a lot of reservations about working with the inverted pentagram (a bit spooked really), but I decided to try it for comparison and observe the effects. I noticed that any of the little problems of the day seemed to iron themselves out, I felt very grounded, at peace, strong, and people started to respond very warmly and affectionately toward me.
I have a sidereal pisces moon in the 7th house, so perhaps I'm too hypersensitive to the environment & people and working with an inverted pentagram gave the grounding I needed? Perhaps the LBRP had the effect of making me too spiritually minded (a natural state) to be of earthly good?
The other pondering I had on this was regarding the alchemical stages. There isn't one Great Work in alchemy, there are three. We achieve an inner 'stone' at the completion of each cycle, but we are not complete until the third stone. I reached that first 'stone' between the ages of 17 and 20 and then was told by my HGA that I must leave the path I was on. I resisted, but by 23 I was forced out by life circumstances (booted out of the nest into hell basically). Could it be possible that during certain periods of our inner developement we have to reverse the energies in order to once again move upward?
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93
Thank you for your responses.
I was doing the Invoking Pentagram when I woke up right before I went to work and the Banishing Pentagram right before bed.
I noticed the steady increase with the problems with the machines. That stood out more than interpersonal relationships. It was the machines that were screwing up.
Anyway, you've given me much to think about. I'll be brave and start daily ritual again.93 93 93
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"It was the machines that were screwing up. "
This strikes me as significant. It makes me wonder if you have any theories yourself as to why this was true.
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@RhiH said
"I've noticed the same thing as PainMeridian. I did a year of working with the LBRP and keeping a journal. The negitive results I got were slow in progression but culminated in loosing my job, huge blow outs and betrayal by my mother, a feeling of disconnect with my spiritual center, just an overall disappointing experience. To this day I wont touch the LBRP because of the subconscious association I have with it now.
It's likely that it could have been something astrological, or perhaps a period of weeding out things I no longer needed in my life. But, as a single parent I've got to make money. It took 8 months after abstaining from LBRPs before I had a job again... the same one I originally lost.
Years later I began work with a form of LBRP using the inverted pentagram. I had a lot of reservations about working with the inverted pentagram (a bit spooked really), but I decided to try it for comparison and observe the effects. I noticed that any of the little problems of the day seemed to iron themselves out, I felt very grounded, at peace, strong, and people started to respond very warmly and affectionately toward me.
I have a sidereal pisces moon in the 7th house, so perhaps I'm too hypersensitive to the environment & people and working with an inverted pentagram gave the grounding I needed? Perhaps the LBRP had the effect of making me too spiritually minded (a natural state) to be of earthly good?
The other pondering I had on this was regarding the alchemical stages. There isn't one Great Work in alchemy, there are three. We achieve an inner 'stone' at the completion of each cycle, but we are not complete until the third stone. I reached that first 'stone' between the ages of 17 and 20 and then was told by my HGA that I must leave the path I was on. I resisted, but by 23 I was forced out by life circumstances (booted out of the nest into hell basically). Could it be possible that during certain periods of our inner developement we have to reverse the energies in order to once again move upward?"
93 RhiHu!
Regarding your negative experience of the LBR. It goes to prove you just cannot rely on the Golden dawn to get anything right
Interesting that when you had contact with your HGA you had a silent but chillingly potent ultimatum to 'give up' something you thought was precious and sacrosanct. Interestingly, I think it was Soror Meral who would cut people down who claimed K&C with the question 'What did you have to give up?' I guess that's the problem with the HGA. It 'evolves' us in a way that barely acknowledges our own humanity. Our Holy Guardian Angel is primarily concerned with our spiritual unfoldment and with our aquiring knowledge and ascending the tree. It basically doesn't give a shit about our need to feed the kids, own a new car and find a life partner or the any of the other 10001 things that make being alive worthwhile. So when it comes to getting you started on the next steps of evolving it simply sees what it needs for you and sees a lot of things we need as human as slowing the process down. There for it says 'You can stop all that fun stuff right now. Get back to you own bed and do as you're told' Kind of goes to prove my theory that Divinity is retarded. It's made us and this wonderful life. It breathes the breath of life into us and says 'Hey kids, go play, have fun Woohooo'. We rush off then we find out the creator is actually more like the Wizard of Oz and is a little shrivaled old man with control issues and a retard. What God unfolded was smarter than the God that unfolded it. Reason being? God has to evolve and we are like it's alter egos crashing about in creation thinking, f*** this is really beautiful but what a twisted f***ed up effort-lol. We are made to be the adolescent 'fool' giving the finger to our dad. In fact I sometimes don't think I have enough middle fingers to express how I feel about all this crap we call life
.Fortunatly, we do seem to have some extra help (maybe that was Moms idea-lol) See, even the masculine side of God behaves like...well...a typical male-lol. I guess mercy appeared as the opposite to severity. But I digress, we have what is sometimes called a Supernatural Assistant to help. Our SA (from personal experience) seems ever willing to 'do' and doesn't question much. It will just hit to 'launch' button when ever a request to action is submitted to it.
All of this subject is high on inspiration but the trick is learning the 'how to' with it all. Which I guess is why we have something inside us that has a 'natural affinity for disobedience' and seeks to learn in order to make this shoddy show called life better. I think this is what Crowley found and set out to test the boundaries as much as he could. That in it self is a source of inspiration. Despite how things look, keep moving and 'do' (I know I need to practice what I preach but this posting is leaking out of me at a rate of knots). The danger of not 'doing' is to sit high up in an ivory tower. Life lets us get away with that for a while but the only future we have there is waiting for that super luminous lightning bolt from Kether to blow the shit out of everything and we come tumbling down to life again. I'm thinking aloud here and I'm not saying any of this applies to you RhiHu so please don't be offended.
So getting back on topic, I wonder of LBRP GD style messes things up because it was designed for people coming down the tree? The rituals written then would have also eflected the magickal current of the times. These days the Aeon is unfolding and the current has changed. It is ofcourse a moot point. If you are drawn to a serious study of magick then the chances are you are going back up the tree so your personal current is different.
As you know RhiHu - I always admire your honesty and courage in all things occult. You think for yourself and are not influenced by anyone (especially me)
Like you RhiHu, I was suprised to find the use of an inverted pentagram and siderial orientation in ritual so profoundly and solidly effective.
Back to PainMeridian - glad things are kind of straightening out for you. Sounds like you have a lot of energy in your aura. But did the machine screw up or did you screw them over unwittingly by your magickal working and it's effect on your aura? I would be interested in seeing what future experiences you have with ritual
I'll STFU now
Galzu
93 93/93
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93
I don't really have a theory. My job is basically to troubleshoot the machines as they run. If everything runs smoothly I just sit and wait for the production to come off the line. If things turn ugly it could mean hours of work, figuring out the root cause and getting things back to baseline.
My co-workers and I get kind of superstitious about the "personalities" of the machines although the ideas are mostly mine.
I''ve pointed a finger absently at a machine and it goes down.
I've vibrated AUM at a machine and it goes down.
There are so many parts to it that have to be in centreline that any small thing including ambient air temperature changes and gusts of air through the plant will cause major malphunktions.
Anyway, I suppose like most people I just want the day to go smoothly but how else can I show my bosses what I can do except when there are problems?939393
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93,
Galzu wrote:
"Regarding your negative experience of the LBR. It goes to prove you just cannot rely on the Golden dawn to get anything right"
After 16 years of daily experience with the LBRP, I have to say I don't think you could be any more wrong. It is a marvellously concise operation that steps down divine energy in a perfectly balanced way. As Crowley says, properly performed it is "the medicine of metals and the stone of the wise." I have used it to calm myself when afraid, exhausted, confused or unable to sleep. I used to perform it in my office on Fridays before leaving, and that helped work operations considerably.
But magick is only as good as the magician. Many magicians don't recognize the extent to which their own subconsciousness affects their lives, and they don't want to be bothered with the slow, tedious work of finding out and equilibrating themselves. Just as many, if not far more, have a conceptual block on accepting that their own subconsciousness is so directly and intimately linked to the so-called outside world that this world is constantly providing feedback on their own unbalanced drives and tendencies.
PainMeridian, I think you do grasp it, since you wrote:
"I''ve pointed a finger absently at a machine and it goes down.
I've vibrated AUM at a machine and it goes down. "But the key thing for a magician is discovering exactly why, for him, such things happen. because hidden within the knots of misperception and misunderstanding, are crucial clues to the nature of his True Will.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"But the key thing for a magician is discovering exactly why, for him, such things happen. because hidden within the knots of misperception and misunderstanding, are crucial clues to the nature of his True Will.
93 93/93,
Edward"
93
Bingo! That makes complete sense to me and actually fits in with the work I'm currently struggling to do. In fact everything you just wrote Edward is helpful and a confirmation. Thanks for the wisdom!
By the way, I was being tongue in cheek about the Golden Dawn. Yes, you are quite right, Crowley did say that. It's the learning to do these rituals properly that takes the time. But I would honestly appreciate it if you or anyone else could offer any insight as to why when the regular Golden Dawn LBRP produces negative result an LBRP performed with inverted pentagrams and drawn widdishins produces the positive results the original LBRP is supposed to? I'm honestly not arguing or being dogmatic, I'm just desperatly trying to find some answers to my obseravations.
93 93/93
Galzu
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93
I think I've had a change of heart about this issue.
Is the positive influence really positive? Is the negative so bad? It gets me thinking.
I was expecting everything to go magically, wonderfully easy when I was practicing this ritual twice a day but it seems to me now that this is not the point.
I don't think anything can grow and change without some terrible pain or suffering associated with it. Equilibriating myself as the centre and a desire to change events got me exactly what I wanted but I think I just failed to see the necessary growing pains that come with it, indeed, are necessary for it.
If things go smoothly for me every day there is no opportunity to grow. I forgot this basic thing when it got too much for me but thanks to posing my question here and some interesting questions asked in return I feel like I can take it a step further with confidence.
Thank you,"Just as many, if not far more, have a conceptual block on accepting that their own subconsciousness is so directly and intimately linked to the so-called outside world that this world is constantly providing feedback on their own unbalanced drives and tendencies."
This sounds like one of the keys for going through rough times in marriage.
93/93/93
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Galzu, 93,
"I would honestly appreciate it if you or anyone else could offer any insight as to why when the regular Golden Dawn LBRP produces negative result an LBRP performed with inverted pentagrams and drawn widdishins produces the positive results the original LBRP is supposed to? "
That would be easier to comment on if I could be in the room as you perform it, and could observe visually and intuitively. I can only throw out a wild guess from where I am right now.
The key that cracked it for me was to realize that as a magician performing this ritual, I was a mediator, not a commander. I call on the Divine Names to set up the circle, then on the Archangels to step down the energy to a level that my conscious mind can accept. The final Qabalistic Cross brings it fully into myself. There is, to use an expression unpopular in Thelemic circles, an act of faith occurring in that I don't try to dominate the Divine force coming in. I intone the Names with focus and as much power as I can without disturbing other people in the house, but I allow the ritual to do the work for me.
If I were using inverted pentagrams and working widdershins, it could be because I was trying to be the Master of the Rite in all ways. But if the idea is that the magician must be in the role of absolute director, rather than the summoner of the Powers, then what you're doing could work, at least as far as consciously known and sought goals is concerned.
But True will is discovered, in my experience, as much by the pratfalls and (apparent) humiliations that come up as by any conscious direction of force. Magick for me is something that I use to open up a back door for the HGA to communicate. I stick to the rules of good practice, but I allow that the real educational process is going to show me all sorts of stuff that I've spent most of my life trying to dodge, repress or ignore.
93 93/93,
Edward -
PainMeridian, 93,
"I don't think anything can grow and change without some terrible pain or suffering associated with it. "
How terrible our pain and suffering are depends on the degree of our unwillingness to accept change. That's something my wiser friends remind me of every time I protest that I'm experiencing suffering and pain. The Universe is constantly adapting and adjusting to what is done to it and within it, yet most of us are taught early on to aim for stability, not flexibility. But the amount of global change that's happening now is far more drastic and intense than what I experienced in my first 40 years on the planet, and the big effects are still coming in. That is going to be reflected in the everyday details of our human lives also.
"Die daily," saith the Prophet of the Aeon. I know: "Easy for him to talk." But accepting the HGA's agenda does tend to open the path to new energy and growth.
93 93/93,
Edward -
Not necessarily tangentially, my wife, who does not perform any rituals, experienced a period in her life where she had 15 flat tires in one year. It didn't matter where she lived at the time or parked at night. We checked behind her tires berfore she got on the road. It didn't matter. She's pick up a nail here, a screw there, and we'd be back at the tire place.
The only thing I can think is that some concept became activated in her subconscious so strongly that it realized itself in her physical experience.
My point, is that events like you have described can happen to people with or without practicing specific rituals.
Have you considered the possibility that performing the ritual activates something in your own subconscious not necessarily inherent to the ritual itself? With my wife, I ended up telling her how I'd read flat tires were commonly interpreted within dreams - as a symbol of exhaustion. We took measures to reduce the amount of stress and stressful people in her life, and then the flat tires simply stopped.
I'm wondering if you can find something in your emotional relationship to those machines that may be getting stirred up. For instance, are they all just "crap" in your mind that you'd like to remove from your life? Shoddy equipment that all needs to be fixed or replaced (banished)? From a certain perspective, though perhaps I'm reaching, you could be seen as banishing the shoddy machines in your life as they malfunction according to your desires to have them all fixed or replaced. I don't know... maybe just as an example of one attempt to analyze the underlying cause of the phenomena. In other words, when this kind of stuff happens to me, this is the basic method I use for trying to understand and correct it. For what it's worth...
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@Edward Mason said
"Galzu, 93,
"I would honestly appreciate it if you or anyone else could offer any insight as to why when the regular Golden Dawn LBRP produces negative result an LBRP performed with inverted pentagrams and drawn widdishins produces the positive results the original LBRP is supposed to? "That would be easier to comment on if I could be in the room as you perform it, and could observe visually and intuitively. I can only throw out a wild guess from where I am right now.
The key that cracked it for me was to realize that as a magician performing this ritual, I was a mediator, not a commander. I call on the Divine Names to set up the circle, then on the Archangels to step down the energy to a level that my conscious mind can accept. The final Qabalistic Cross brings it fully into myself. There is, to use an expression unpopular in Thelemic circles, an act of faith occurring in that I don't try to dominate the Divine force coming in. I intone the Names with focus and as much power as I can without disturbing other people in the house, but I allow the ritual to do the work for me.
If I were using inverted pentagrams and working widdershins, it could be because I was trying to be the Master of the Rite in all ways. But if the idea is that the magician must be in the role of absolute director, rather than the summoner of the Powers, then what you're doing could work, at least as far as consciously known and sought goals is concerned.
But True will is discovered, in my experience, as much by the pratfalls and (apparent) humiliations that come up as by any conscious direction of force. Magick for me is something that I use to open up a back door for the HGA to communicate. I stick to the rules of good practice, but I allow that the real educational process is going to show me all sorts of stuff that I've spent most of my life trying to dodge, repress or ignore.
93 93/93,
Edward"93,
That and the other answers and comments in this thread are very interesting. It makes sense about the subconscious finding a manifestation through the forces ritual trigger into mundane manifestation. I appreciate this discussion as it is helping solve some of the riddles that confront me in my journey to finding true will.
I particularly like the idea that the magickian is the 'mediator' of the ritual and the forces evoked are the 'actual directors'. It also makes sense that the inverted pentagrams could be part of a hidden process of trying to make the practitioner the master and not the mediator. Sounds dangerous and destined to failure when you look at it that way round.
To be perfectly honest I have never had a bad experience with LBRP. But I have been puzzled why the inverted version seemed to work at blocking incoming forces so well. But as you are all discussing, it takes time, practice and the very valuable lessons learned from the 'prat falls' to achieve a true ability with magick.
Galzu
93 93/93
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@Sardonyx said
"Have you considered the possibility that performing the ritual activates something in your own subconscious not necessarily inherent to the ritual itself? With my wife, I ended up telling her how I'd read flat tires were commonly interpreted within dreams - as a symbol of exhaustion. We took measures to reduce the amount of stress and stressful people in her life, and then the flat tires simply stopped."
I just wanted to pause and say... this is one of the best real-life examples I've seen someone write. Yes, this is how this stuff works - events in life are denser externalizations (projections) of unconscious content. You read that, and adjusted to it, very well.
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Galzu 93,
I think you and I are working from fundamentally different assumptions. I never see the LBRP as "blocking incoming forces." Rather, it's one way of aligning my own being with the HGA. For me it's a ritual that's inclusive, not exclusionary.
If I wanted to try to control nature, I'd do exactly what you've been doing. But I'd look on that as a form of unremitting bashing of my own head against solid concrete. I'd end up producing a series of problems, none of which would provide very much illumination, unless I changed course and abandoned my efforts to dominate That Which Is.
I want to become aligned with my own deepest nature. "Thou hast no right but to do thy will." On the way to that, yes, I perform various magical operations to control specific aspects of nature, so that I can comprehend my relationship to them better. But the LRP, in either its invoking or banishing aspects, centres and attunes us to our essential core, where the True Will can be encountered and known. Making the assumption that I need to prevent the effects of things I have casually assumed are interfering with me is going to obstruct the life-lessons. Sure, we need to practice basic psychic and magical hygiene, but the LBRP takes care of that automatically.
93 93/93,
Edward -
@Edward Mason said
"Galzu 93,
I think you and I are working from fundamentally different assumptions. I never see the LBRP as "blocking incoming forces." Rather, it's one way of aligning my own being with the HGA. For me it's a ritual that's inclusive, not exclusionary.
If I wanted to try to control nature, I'd do exactly what you've been doing. But I'd look on that as a form of unremitting bashing of my own head against solid concrete. I'd end up producing a series of problems, none of which would provide very much illumination, unless I changed course and abandoned my efforts to dominate That Which Is.
I want to become aligned with my own deepest nature. "Thou hast no right but to do thy will." On the way to that, yes, I perform various magical operations to control specific aspects of nature, so that I can comprehend my relationship to them better. But the LRP, in either its invoking or banishing aspects, centres and attunes us to our essential core, where the True Will can be encountered and known. Making the assumption that I need to prevent the effects of things I have casually assumed are interfering with me is going to obstruct the life-lessons. Sure, we need to practice basic psychic and magical hygiene, but the LBRP takes care of that automatically.
93 93/93,
Edward"93 Edward,
It is now becoming clear where my efforts been going wrong. Thank you Edward for your clarity. I'm going to start a fresh with LBRP and record carefully any observations etc in my journal. Hopefully reversing the hash made of things so far
Galzu
93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Sardonyx said
"Have you considered the possibility that performing the ritual activates something in your own subconscious not necessarily inherent to the ritual itself? With my wife, I ended up telling her how I'd read flat tires were commonly interpreted within dreams - as a symbol of exhaustion. We took measures to reduce the amount of stress and stressful people in her life, and then the flat tires simply stopped."I just wanted to pause and say... this is one of the best real-life examples I've seen someone write. Yes, this is how this stuff works - events in life are denser externalizations (projections) of unconscious content. You read that, and adjusted to it, very well."
93,
Yes, that was a very good example Sardonyx. Jim your statement "Yes, this is how this stuff works - events in life are denser externalizations (projections) of unconscious content." is personally extremly helpful. Thank you both.
Galzu
93 93/93
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@Edward Mason said
"I think you and I are working from fundamentally different assumptions. I never see the LBRP as "blocking incoming forces." Rather, it's one way of aligning my own being with the HGA. For me it's a ritual that's inclusive, not exclusionary."
I mostly agree, and want to say this a different way. (Ignoring, for the moment, the fact that it can be used to secure the perimeter of a space if that's the specific intent.)
Take what Edward said... and understand that the process he describes causes the your center to grow more distant from, and progressively more immune to, conditions that are at odds with your True Will.
That's the point I was making in my original post: Properly performed, the Pentagram Ritual gradually aligns you more closely with your authentic center or self. As a ritual of integration, it's a ritual of integrity.
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I must apologize for not reading all of the posts but business just popped up and I have to ramble. But, replying to this post seems important to me so here goes:
This sounds like a case of two different challenges presented to you through your Magickal rituals and subsequent life effects.
First, it sounds to me like your work is not in flow with your True Will. The spirits could be guiding you to leave your job and follow your true passions for occupation, whatever they might be.
Second, it sounds like there are spirits sent to thwart your progress. If you live in a place with lots of dark energy, or grew up in a place with lots of dark energies, (civil war battlefield, indian burial ground,) these entities take interest in the living people that occupy their old stomping grounds.
They will follow you through life, sometimes. Now if they feel you blasting them away with your awesome God-Power during your LBPR, then they will be stirring up stuff at work and elsewhere to try to falter your progress.
However, what they may not realize is that they are being used by the Light Beings and Angels to make you realize that your job doesn't jive totally with your True Will.
I apologize if I sound like I am assuming things that aren't there or over-analyzing, but I've got a good psychic feel for things and I feel both of these off of you.
I would continue my Rituals, especially Banishing of all four Hexagram and Pentagram rituals, inflaming thyself with prayer to Ra-Hoor-Khuit and your HGA, and be very sure of yourself in everything you do. "Whatever thou art, thou art. Be content. (I forgot which Aethyr that's from. Oh 25th!)
Again, I apologize if I am being too forward (or perhaps backward) with you.
Peace and Power to You and Yours
93s
Frank