Trouble after LBRP
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93,
Galzu wrote:
"Regarding your negative experience of the LBR. It goes to prove you just cannot rely on the Golden dawn to get anything right"
After 16 years of daily experience with the LBRP, I have to say I don't think you could be any more wrong. It is a marvellously concise operation that steps down divine energy in a perfectly balanced way. As Crowley says, properly performed it is "the medicine of metals and the stone of the wise." I have used it to calm myself when afraid, exhausted, confused or unable to sleep. I used to perform it in my office on Fridays before leaving, and that helped work operations considerably.
But magick is only as good as the magician. Many magicians don't recognize the extent to which their own subconsciousness affects their lives, and they don't want to be bothered with the slow, tedious work of finding out and equilibrating themselves. Just as many, if not far more, have a conceptual block on accepting that their own subconsciousness is so directly and intimately linked to the so-called outside world that this world is constantly providing feedback on their own unbalanced drives and tendencies.
PainMeridian, I think you do grasp it, since you wrote:
"I''ve pointed a finger absently at a machine and it goes down.
I've vibrated AUM at a machine and it goes down. "But the key thing for a magician is discovering exactly why, for him, such things happen. because hidden within the knots of misperception and misunderstanding, are crucial clues to the nature of his True Will.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"But the key thing for a magician is discovering exactly why, for him, such things happen. because hidden within the knots of misperception and misunderstanding, are crucial clues to the nature of his True Will.
93 93/93,
Edward"
93
Bingo! That makes complete sense to me and actually fits in with the work I'm currently struggling to do. In fact everything you just wrote Edward is helpful and a confirmation. Thanks for the wisdom!
By the way, I was being tongue in cheek about the Golden Dawn. Yes, you are quite right, Crowley did say that. It's the learning to do these rituals properly that takes the time. But I would honestly appreciate it if you or anyone else could offer any insight as to why when the regular Golden Dawn LBRP produces negative result an LBRP performed with inverted pentagrams and drawn widdishins produces the positive results the original LBRP is supposed to? I'm honestly not arguing or being dogmatic, I'm just desperatly trying to find some answers to my obseravations.
93 93/93
Galzu
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93
I think I've had a change of heart about this issue.
Is the positive influence really positive? Is the negative so bad? It gets me thinking.
I was expecting everything to go magically, wonderfully easy when I was practicing this ritual twice a day but it seems to me now that this is not the point.
I don't think anything can grow and change without some terrible pain or suffering associated with it. Equilibriating myself as the centre and a desire to change events got me exactly what I wanted but I think I just failed to see the necessary growing pains that come with it, indeed, are necessary for it.
If things go smoothly for me every day there is no opportunity to grow. I forgot this basic thing when it got too much for me but thanks to posing my question here and some interesting questions asked in return I feel like I can take it a step further with confidence.
Thank you,"Just as many, if not far more, have a conceptual block on accepting that their own subconsciousness is so directly and intimately linked to the so-called outside world that this world is constantly providing feedback on their own unbalanced drives and tendencies."
This sounds like one of the keys for going through rough times in marriage.
93/93/93
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Galzu, 93,
"I would honestly appreciate it if you or anyone else could offer any insight as to why when the regular Golden Dawn LBRP produces negative result an LBRP performed with inverted pentagrams and drawn widdishins produces the positive results the original LBRP is supposed to? "
That would be easier to comment on if I could be in the room as you perform it, and could observe visually and intuitively. I can only throw out a wild guess from where I am right now.
The key that cracked it for me was to realize that as a magician performing this ritual, I was a mediator, not a commander. I call on the Divine Names to set up the circle, then on the Archangels to step down the energy to a level that my conscious mind can accept. The final Qabalistic Cross brings it fully into myself. There is, to use an expression unpopular in Thelemic circles, an act of faith occurring in that I don't try to dominate the Divine force coming in. I intone the Names with focus and as much power as I can without disturbing other people in the house, but I allow the ritual to do the work for me.
If I were using inverted pentagrams and working widdershins, it could be because I was trying to be the Master of the Rite in all ways. But if the idea is that the magician must be in the role of absolute director, rather than the summoner of the Powers, then what you're doing could work, at least as far as consciously known and sought goals is concerned.
But True will is discovered, in my experience, as much by the pratfalls and (apparent) humiliations that come up as by any conscious direction of force. Magick for me is something that I use to open up a back door for the HGA to communicate. I stick to the rules of good practice, but I allow that the real educational process is going to show me all sorts of stuff that I've spent most of my life trying to dodge, repress or ignore.
93 93/93,
Edward -
PainMeridian, 93,
"I don't think anything can grow and change without some terrible pain or suffering associated with it. "
How terrible our pain and suffering are depends on the degree of our unwillingness to accept change. That's something my wiser friends remind me of every time I protest that I'm experiencing suffering and pain. The Universe is constantly adapting and adjusting to what is done to it and within it, yet most of us are taught early on to aim for stability, not flexibility. But the amount of global change that's happening now is far more drastic and intense than what I experienced in my first 40 years on the planet, and the big effects are still coming in. That is going to be reflected in the everyday details of our human lives also.
"Die daily," saith the Prophet of the Aeon. I know: "Easy for him to talk." But accepting the HGA's agenda does tend to open the path to new energy and growth.
93 93/93,
Edward -
Not necessarily tangentially, my wife, who does not perform any rituals, experienced a period in her life where she had 15 flat tires in one year. It didn't matter where she lived at the time or parked at night. We checked behind her tires berfore she got on the road. It didn't matter. She's pick up a nail here, a screw there, and we'd be back at the tire place.
The only thing I can think is that some concept became activated in her subconscious so strongly that it realized itself in her physical experience.
My point, is that events like you have described can happen to people with or without practicing specific rituals.
Have you considered the possibility that performing the ritual activates something in your own subconscious not necessarily inherent to the ritual itself? With my wife, I ended up telling her how I'd read flat tires were commonly interpreted within dreams - as a symbol of exhaustion. We took measures to reduce the amount of stress and stressful people in her life, and then the flat tires simply stopped.
I'm wondering if you can find something in your emotional relationship to those machines that may be getting stirred up. For instance, are they all just "crap" in your mind that you'd like to remove from your life? Shoddy equipment that all needs to be fixed or replaced (banished)? From a certain perspective, though perhaps I'm reaching, you could be seen as banishing the shoddy machines in your life as they malfunction according to your desires to have them all fixed or replaced. I don't know... maybe just as an example of one attempt to analyze the underlying cause of the phenomena. In other words, when this kind of stuff happens to me, this is the basic method I use for trying to understand and correct it. For what it's worth...
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@Edward Mason said
"Galzu, 93,
"I would honestly appreciate it if you or anyone else could offer any insight as to why when the regular Golden Dawn LBRP produces negative result an LBRP performed with inverted pentagrams and drawn widdishins produces the positive results the original LBRP is supposed to? "That would be easier to comment on if I could be in the room as you perform it, and could observe visually and intuitively. I can only throw out a wild guess from where I am right now.
The key that cracked it for me was to realize that as a magician performing this ritual, I was a mediator, not a commander. I call on the Divine Names to set up the circle, then on the Archangels to step down the energy to a level that my conscious mind can accept. The final Qabalistic Cross brings it fully into myself. There is, to use an expression unpopular in Thelemic circles, an act of faith occurring in that I don't try to dominate the Divine force coming in. I intone the Names with focus and as much power as I can without disturbing other people in the house, but I allow the ritual to do the work for me.
If I were using inverted pentagrams and working widdershins, it could be because I was trying to be the Master of the Rite in all ways. But if the idea is that the magician must be in the role of absolute director, rather than the summoner of the Powers, then what you're doing could work, at least as far as consciously known and sought goals is concerned.
But True will is discovered, in my experience, as much by the pratfalls and (apparent) humiliations that come up as by any conscious direction of force. Magick for me is something that I use to open up a back door for the HGA to communicate. I stick to the rules of good practice, but I allow that the real educational process is going to show me all sorts of stuff that I've spent most of my life trying to dodge, repress or ignore.
93 93/93,
Edward"93,
That and the other answers and comments in this thread are very interesting. It makes sense about the subconscious finding a manifestation through the forces ritual trigger into mundane manifestation. I appreciate this discussion as it is helping solve some of the riddles that confront me in my journey to finding true will.
I particularly like the idea that the magickian is the 'mediator' of the ritual and the forces evoked are the 'actual directors'. It also makes sense that the inverted pentagrams could be part of a hidden process of trying to make the practitioner the master and not the mediator. Sounds dangerous and destined to failure when you look at it that way round.
To be perfectly honest I have never had a bad experience with LBRP. But I have been puzzled why the inverted version seemed to work at blocking incoming forces so well. But as you are all discussing, it takes time, practice and the very valuable lessons learned from the 'prat falls' to achieve a true ability with magick.
Galzu
93 93/93
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@Sardonyx said
"Have you considered the possibility that performing the ritual activates something in your own subconscious not necessarily inherent to the ritual itself? With my wife, I ended up telling her how I'd read flat tires were commonly interpreted within dreams - as a symbol of exhaustion. We took measures to reduce the amount of stress and stressful people in her life, and then the flat tires simply stopped."
I just wanted to pause and say... this is one of the best real-life examples I've seen someone write. Yes, this is how this stuff works - events in life are denser externalizations (projections) of unconscious content. You read that, and adjusted to it, very well.
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Galzu 93,
I think you and I are working from fundamentally different assumptions. I never see the LBRP as "blocking incoming forces." Rather, it's one way of aligning my own being with the HGA. For me it's a ritual that's inclusive, not exclusionary.
If I wanted to try to control nature, I'd do exactly what you've been doing. But I'd look on that as a form of unremitting bashing of my own head against solid concrete. I'd end up producing a series of problems, none of which would provide very much illumination, unless I changed course and abandoned my efforts to dominate That Which Is.
I want to become aligned with my own deepest nature. "Thou hast no right but to do thy will." On the way to that, yes, I perform various magical operations to control specific aspects of nature, so that I can comprehend my relationship to them better. But the LRP, in either its invoking or banishing aspects, centres and attunes us to our essential core, where the True Will can be encountered and known. Making the assumption that I need to prevent the effects of things I have casually assumed are interfering with me is going to obstruct the life-lessons. Sure, we need to practice basic psychic and magical hygiene, but the LBRP takes care of that automatically.
93 93/93,
Edward -
@Edward Mason said
"Galzu 93,
I think you and I are working from fundamentally different assumptions. I never see the LBRP as "blocking incoming forces." Rather, it's one way of aligning my own being with the HGA. For me it's a ritual that's inclusive, not exclusionary.
If I wanted to try to control nature, I'd do exactly what you've been doing. But I'd look on that as a form of unremitting bashing of my own head against solid concrete. I'd end up producing a series of problems, none of which would provide very much illumination, unless I changed course and abandoned my efforts to dominate That Which Is.
I want to become aligned with my own deepest nature. "Thou hast no right but to do thy will." On the way to that, yes, I perform various magical operations to control specific aspects of nature, so that I can comprehend my relationship to them better. But the LRP, in either its invoking or banishing aspects, centres and attunes us to our essential core, where the True Will can be encountered and known. Making the assumption that I need to prevent the effects of things I have casually assumed are interfering with me is going to obstruct the life-lessons. Sure, we need to practice basic psychic and magical hygiene, but the LBRP takes care of that automatically.
93 93/93,
Edward"93 Edward,
It is now becoming clear where my efforts been going wrong. Thank you Edward for your clarity. I'm going to start a fresh with LBRP and record carefully any observations etc in my journal. Hopefully reversing the hash made of things so far
Galzu
93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Sardonyx said
"Have you considered the possibility that performing the ritual activates something in your own subconscious not necessarily inherent to the ritual itself? With my wife, I ended up telling her how I'd read flat tires were commonly interpreted within dreams - as a symbol of exhaustion. We took measures to reduce the amount of stress and stressful people in her life, and then the flat tires simply stopped."I just wanted to pause and say... this is one of the best real-life examples I've seen someone write. Yes, this is how this stuff works - events in life are denser externalizations (projections) of unconscious content. You read that, and adjusted to it, very well."
93,
Yes, that was a very good example Sardonyx. Jim your statement "Yes, this is how this stuff works - events in life are denser externalizations (projections) of unconscious content." is personally extremly helpful. Thank you both.
Galzu
93 93/93
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@Edward Mason said
"I think you and I are working from fundamentally different assumptions. I never see the LBRP as "blocking incoming forces." Rather, it's one way of aligning my own being with the HGA. For me it's a ritual that's inclusive, not exclusionary."
I mostly agree, and want to say this a different way. (Ignoring, for the moment, the fact that it can be used to secure the perimeter of a space if that's the specific intent.)
Take what Edward said... and understand that the process he describes causes the your center to grow more distant from, and progressively more immune to, conditions that are at odds with your True Will.
That's the point I was making in my original post: Properly performed, the Pentagram Ritual gradually aligns you more closely with your authentic center or self. As a ritual of integration, it's a ritual of integrity.
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I must apologize for not reading all of the posts but business just popped up and I have to ramble. But, replying to this post seems important to me so here goes:
This sounds like a case of two different challenges presented to you through your Magickal rituals and subsequent life effects.
First, it sounds to me like your work is not in flow with your True Will. The spirits could be guiding you to leave your job and follow your true passions for occupation, whatever they might be.
Second, it sounds like there are spirits sent to thwart your progress. If you live in a place with lots of dark energy, or grew up in a place with lots of dark energies, (civil war battlefield, indian burial ground,) these entities take interest in the living people that occupy their old stomping grounds.
They will follow you through life, sometimes. Now if they feel you blasting them away with your awesome God-Power during your LBPR, then they will be stirring up stuff at work and elsewhere to try to falter your progress.
However, what they may not realize is that they are being used by the Light Beings and Angels to make you realize that your job doesn't jive totally with your True Will.
I apologize if I sound like I am assuming things that aren't there or over-analyzing, but I've got a good psychic feel for things and I feel both of these off of you.
I would continue my Rituals, especially Banishing of all four Hexagram and Pentagram rituals, inflaming thyself with prayer to Ra-Hoor-Khuit and your HGA, and be very sure of yourself in everything you do. "Whatever thou art, thou art. Be content. (I forgot which Aethyr that's from. Oh 25th!)
Again, I apologize if I am being too forward (or perhaps backward) with you.
Peace and Power to You and Yours
93s
Frank
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I've been meditating on the question of reversed pentigrams, LBRP, and taking everyones comments into consideration. What you said is probably closer to the mark, in my case, than the other comments.
I don't think the problem is my job, or the rampant dark energy -which is basically the modern world structure-, I think the problem for me is in trying to work with western magick! Not an easy conclusion to come to after god knows how many dollars and years I've invested in tools, study, books and rituals. It might be a right fit for some people but not for myself.
What I did find in meditating on this situation is that I am, and have always been, deeply drawn to anything Egyptian. Any profound experience I have had has in some way included an Egyptian aspect. So, I've spent the last few days studying Egyptian language... to my only minor suprise, I recognize some of the Bohairic dialect (native to the Memphis area) and some hieroglyphics relating to the temple work of that area. Then I pulled out some materials left to me by one of my grand aunts on coptic temple (not church) teachings. Bingo!
The Egyptians worked with a 10 day week and had a planetary hour system different from the western version. From the time of the proto-cannanic period the Egyptians viewed the magic of what is now Israel as snake-charming... left hand path. If I've got Egyptian practice etched into my inner being then of course my world would revolt at being subjected to practicing western magick. The True Self wants what it wants and wont accept substitutions.
Anyone interested in buying several hundred used occult books for a good price, let me know
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Good to hear you've come to a conclusion you can live with.
My connection to Egypt is profound as well.. I am VASTLY sure I led many lives there, even before the fall of the old Kingdom. I have weird memories of things going all to hell around 7000 years ago, with people dying all around, with fire, and people running from things from the sky. Weird.
Me, brother, I believe you can take those deeply ingrained divine Magickal tools in your spirit, and take this Western Magick that is basically just the alphabet of the universe around us, and craft them to suit your will.
Just from the top of my head.. for instance.. you could take the Lesser Pentagram rituals, and vibrate "Shu" instead of IHVH for air in the East, I forget the Earth attribution,
(forgive me I've been up all night inflaming myself with prayer unto the Crowned and Conquering child whilst imbibing the "hidden manna" from Revelations, a hint.. many of Americans go to South America to drink it every year to cure their cancer. Most come back with no cancer, and those that follow the shaman's advice don't get sick again. The shamans say those they cannot cure have either waited way too long to dose, or that the person has done something so terrible to another human being that the cancer is the only balance that can be established. If you are interested enough in knowing the actual names of these wonderful things, don't hesitate to ask. Ayahuasca is the name it goes by down there, though I've got all the info you need on where to get the pure plant material and how to purify the sacraments within,)
..Vibrate "Thoum Aesh Neith" in the south with the Greater Pentagram ritual.. you get the gist.
We must remember, fair Brother, that Magick is meant to be passed down through the evolution of Man to be pulled apart, almost bastardized in some areas, then pulled back together, cleaned up, and made divine again by minds like yours and mine.
I must express to you the fact that all of my deepest spiritual experiences are heavily tied to Egypt. But, gazing up at the night sky many times on so many sacraments that were left here to better mankind, I've tied my Magickal experiences in past lives in Egypt, to those Magickal experiences in past lives in South America.
I know, I know it sounds strange. But the patterns are almost the same at many levels, and you can tell that the Magick now in South America and the true Heirophants and Mages that live there and commune with Nature, are continuations of the True Magick from the vast Olam-horizon divided skies of Egypt that you and I connect to so deeply.
Do not think of sullying your hands or mind in the puzzle of Western mysticism.. think of it exactly as it is: A mind awakened many lives ago, sent into a maze of a Lion's den to figure out how to survive with the new language that Magick is turning itself into.
Whatever comes your way, may you make the best of it.
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Love is the Law, Love under WillFrank
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Always double check that you're drawing the pentagrams in the proper way. I can't tell you how many times when I first began that I was accidentally invoking instead of banishing.
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Something that has been touched upon that I though to expand upon...
Often what are perceived as 'negative' results from the LBRP arise from resistance.
Of being afraid to take the necessary steps in order to become in tune with our True Will.
Though, completely changing your live is not necessitated.
You may just need to a shift in perspective.