Black brother and his fate...
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I get the impression that a lot of people who claim to have crossed the abyss forget the fourth power of the Sphynx. Which power can be related to the element Earth and the letter and path of Tau, which as hinted at by Archaeus, would suggest that they are going through an ordeal on this path and I would add failing to ground it, instead dispersing the energy through superfluous speach.
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My 2 cents would be less that it was somehow wrong / superfluous to speak of such an experience, but that a lot of context in the form of definition of the words used, at least to an extent shared and shareable spiritual experience and states of heightened consciousness as well, a model of (trans?)human evolution one can reference to (that understands the difference between map and territory+) and probably also some personal contact and knowledge (who the other claiming the experience is) are nescessary to have a meaningful conversation about it.
That said, I have come to the conclusion that it might indeed be better to stay silent about certain things if blabbing about them might lead to more confusion on all sides than enlightening a subject or finding something new out about it.
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@Archaeus said
" But in fact they are classic examples of 32nd path phenomena. As this path is connected in a way to Binah it does share some qualities, and so the confusion is understandable, although not excusable."
Huh, I never made that connection before. That's especially interesting to me becasue during my spiritual awakening/depressive illness I identified very strongly with Saturn, despite knowing very little about magick or even astrology at the time.@Dar es Allarah said
"I think we need a special space set aside for people undergoing the abyss. Somewhere away from families and children. And this needs to be an international inter-temple effort.
There is a special category newly set aside under the recent review of the DSM that deals with ‘spiritual problems’ that I believe we can use to get funding for such an effort."
While I can hardly claim authority or first hand experience with this, it strikes me as extrememly troubling that an Exempt Adept preparing to cross the abyss would need to receive mental health services in this way. Additionally, I always understood that during this process, the lower self (body, intellect, etc.) goes on as always, holding down a job, carrying out family obligations, etc., but in a higher sense the Adapt is not really present in these things. -
"*Liber LXV *I:59. Stained is the purple of thy mouth, O brilliant one, with the white glory of the lips of Adonai.
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The foam of the grape is like the storm upon the sea; the ships tremble and shudder; the shipmaster is afraid.
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That is thy drunkenness, O holy one, and the winds whirl away the soul of the scribe into the happy haven.
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O Lord God! let the haven be cast down by the fury of the storm! Let the foam of the grape tincture my soul with Thy light!
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More! MORE! MORE..!!!
I'm just going to speak honestly from experience for a moment. Make of it what you will, but I do not claim to have crossed the Abyss.
There was a moment in my past where I was rapt in miraculous seeming synchronicity. I could not even think a thought without the universe seemingly quickly reacting by supplying more information on the subject. I don't really know how to describe it, but it was the most impressive thing I had ever experienced up to that point. I thought surely that I had achieve K&C. In reality, I knew next to nothing about it in order to draw such a conclusions. But in my mind, I had crossed a barrier into a new way of living. I conceived of it as a permanent change of experience for me. In that rapture, I wanted More! MORE! MORE..! And I asked even to cross the Abyss - to be made complete! I truly wanted to be the kind of person that only saw the Divine in every interaction.
So began the most maddening experience of my life. I cannot say for certain that this was the Abyss. I only know my vocabulary was limited, and my intention included this term. I don't think I'm entirely alone in such thinking and actions.
That sense of perfect synchronicity evolved into ...how to describe it... a sense of perfect challenge(?). When I came across another person, no matter who it might be (in fact, even the dog was involved in this), there was the inner sense that all these things were in reality perfectly knowledgable - that an aspect of them, at least, was fully enlightened. And OH! how I wanted to interact with such beings! But each and everything they said seemed like a deception - a part they were bound to play instead of being that thing that I felt each to be. "Woman! Family! Friends! Why do you all act like I'm crazy? You know who you are! You know what you are capable of! Let's all be that!" But the seeming deception continued. In each case, it was if there was always the unspoken challenge: "What makes you say I'm not being that right now? What part of me are you calling less than Divine?" So, I attempted to give up all judgment and just accept what I experienced. I laughed at people being mean. I winked at people when they stole. When I was corrected for this, I felt the correction too must be Divine! And I developed an intense internal conflict.
And then the Game began. Who would I let get away with what? There were, afterall, no real rules to this "place." Anything could happen it seemed, and much unexplainable by me did happen. There were times when I feared I would change universes just by closing my eyes - and who knew where I would end up. The very elements themselves seemed to attempt to rebel against me, as if it was my fault and my fault alone that they were not free from the limitation of manifestation. I began to identify with Saturn. There had to be rules for there to be manifestation. There had to be limitation. Of course, you have to remember that all of this was layered into my experience of everyday reality: watching TV, going to work, interacting at home. I had to stand for order, or there would be only incoherent madness. There were plotlines within plotlines projected onto every event. It was at this point that I began to identify as a Libra in relation to everything else. What had seemed mysterious rebellious elements began to be understood as zodiacal permutations of mind and being, of which I was representative of one ray in relationship to the others.
I still find myself running up against strong zodiacal characters. I'll react to someone for a while, and then I'll have a moment of realization that this is my Libra in reaction to someone's Capricorn. Aries, directly across, probably interacts with me the most. He's either claiming his right to battle, or I'm restricting it out of the principle of needed equilibrium. But when we agree and team up, it's game on. lol...
Mostly these days, I like to sit and listen to people - to try to figure out what they're expressing and fit it into the zodiacal mandala of the Divine Life.
Now, I don't know if that was *the Abyss *as technically defined, but it sure was something. And, as to whether I "crossed it." lol... I doubt it. I absolutely do not live in some glorious experience where every a**hole who comes my way is smiled upon and seen as a glorious expression of the Divine. I can rant and rail at the universe with the best of them. I can become entirely sidetracked and incensed by politics, and that's probably another vote in the "nay" column. Does a Magister Templi yell at politicians on the TV? I doubt it... lol... I guess when I do lean toward thinking it was the Abyss, I think I'm glad I'm alive - cast out, or what-have-you - doesn't matter. I don't think, however, that I'll be making the attempt again any time soon. Maybe in my next life, I'll get an earlier start in hermticism, and we'll see what happens. But for now, I still feel like I'm settling out from that completely unpinned and unhinged experience. Still... But it is all settling out. Even still, I'm getting my feet under me again and trying to take up beginning practices again that I once couldn't even imagine leaving behind.
I still don't know what to call it, and I have found that the need to call it something and label it is in itself a maddening distraction. So, I've given that up as well.
I can only say that I initiated some sort of very dangerous, potentially maddening, completely psychologically unhinged experience from which I have learned a great deal. I think such experiences are what people are talking about and trying to find vocabulary to define. I don't really care who has or has not crossed the Great Whatever. I am really interested in people's experiences, though, and what they've learned from them.
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@Iamus said
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@Archaeus said
" But in fact they are classic examples of 32nd path phenomena. As this path is connected in a way to Binah it does share some qualities, and so the confusion is understandable, although not excusable."
""Huh, I never made that connection before. That's especially interesting to me becasue during my spiritual awakening/depressive illness I identified very strongly with Saturn, despite knowing very little about magick or even astrology at the time."
Its actually a pretty vital connection, and a major pitfall of this stage of the path, the connection between Malkuth and Binah should never be forgotten, as at this stage the aspirant is actively trying to loosen the grip of the former to cultivate the connection with the latter. You might also say that s/he is trying to recognize this connection in daily life.
The 32nd path would then be the active side of this connection, how it plays out in ones life, so various Saturnine influences would be expected.
Still, its no use mistaking one for the other, which would be very easy for anyone working outside of a system, hence the need for extra vigilance and honesty for those who prefer to go solo.
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@Iamus said
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@Archaeus said
" But in fact they are classic examples of 32nd path phenomena. As this path is connected in a way to Binah it does share some qualities, and so the confusion is understandable, although not excusable."
Huh, I never made that connection before. That's especially interesting to me becasue during my spiritual awakening/depressive illness I identified very strongly with Saturn, despite knowing very little about magick or even astrology at the time."Yes. A whole lot of experiences that feel legimately like "crossing the Abyss" are Tav experiences - especially crossing Tav from Malkuth in Assiah to Yesod in Yetirah (thus "crossing the Abyss" between Assiah and Yetzirah, to abuse the language a bit). (Of course, many others aren't anywhere near that level.) If I hadn't had the exact mapping of the A.'.A.'. system to follow at that exact point (about to enter 2=9), it would have been very difficult for me avoid interpreting it (with lots of ego-infusion!) as "I crossed the Abyss." (I was only destabilized a few weeks.)
A less-known phenomenon is one that hits the mature Adeptus Minor. When the experience in Tiphereth is mature, the natural course of development is toward Geburah and the 6=5 grade. I can tell you, the 6=5 really feels like "this must be crossing the Abyss." The three middle-triad grades are all "gates to the Abyss," so 6=5 is rightly called "the 2nd Gate to the Abyss." The severity aspects, the infusion and domination of Binah-Babalon ideas (Geburah opening itself rightly to the direct inflow/influence of Binah), the Lamed and Mem phenomena en route, and the (to me) surprisingly huge gap from 5=6 to 6=5 feels, for the most part, not all that different from large sections of the Vision & Voice subjective reports.
But it' s not the same. The perspective to keep is that there is an entire Tree within each sephirah, so even authentic, well-tracked experiences of feeling yourself move "up and through" the entire Tree to the top are deceptive. Also, that the 'gap' between individual grades can be extreme, even revolutionary, so it is misleading to take every "I blew myself the F away" passage as The Abyss.
And in Geburah, it is perhaps more 'persuasive' because, in the fulfillment of the Work of the grade, the influence to which you are opening is indeed Binah. Binah is the form or aspect of the Supernals that forges the primary link of the Major Adept, just as Kether is its expression to one in Tiphereth. (See The 32 Paths of Wisdom for the 5th Path.) But then one goes on to Chesed, and the primary voice of the linkage is from Chokmah via Vav.
"While I can hardly claim authority or first hand experience with this, it strikes me as extrememly troubling that an Exempt Adept preparing to cross the abyss would need to receive mental health services in this way. Additionally, I always understood that during this process, the lower self (body, intellect, etc.) goes on as always, holding down a job, carrying out family obligations, etc., but in a higher sense the Adapt is not really present in these things."
Some might benefit from this. But the idea of a general throwing of all such types together troubles me. The most powerful force governing this particular stage is its vacuousness - emptiness - its sterility. The Work (that cannot be intentionally done by the adept) is accomplished by the starvation of the psyche from certain phenomena.
And Crowley removed people passing through it from all contact with groups (probably to protect both sides in different ways). IMO that's an appropriate step. (This was lifted when they came through the other side as a Master.)
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My experiences in 2010 seem to fit this as well.
There was a very Saturnine quality to my life at the time (personal tragedy, interpersonal difficulties, depression) combined with a deep introspection and "descent" into the world of the unconscious. My dreams became very archetypal, with prominent dark anima and snake imagery. I had to let go of a lot of what I thought was "me". It culminated in a profound kundalini experience, which was followed by brief periods of clairvoyance and other phenomena. I think this probably was an experience of the path of Tav.
I'm guessing that the combo of the tragic/Saturnine feel, and the "underworld" of the unconscious can be mistaken for "the Abyss".
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@nashimiron said
"I get the impression that a lot of people who claim to have crossed the abyss forget the fourth power of the Sphynx. Which power can be related to the element Earth and the letter and path of Tau, which as hinted at by Archaeus, would suggest that they are going through an ordeal on this path and I would add failing to ground it, instead dispersing the energy through superfluous speach."
Did you hear what happened to the lovely Sphynx last week?
She was reclaimed, and adorned, annointed if you will.It has been promoted that the Y chromosome reacts with fight or flight
But the double XX will reveal and discuss, bond and join forces instead of running.I dont pretend to understand these paths and words, but when I said that I thought I was on the otherside, I wasnt impling that "i" crossed anything.
There used to be a time when blinds, and lies, and secrets were needed for this matter. But from where I sit, that time is gone.
From the information that has been revealed to me, little ol V, BB are attempting to square the circle, which may be where evolution is heading, mayabe.....
But I just dont think that is possible yet, under these condtions at least.
I wonder why it is, that when I was but a teen, I received the Book of the Law, accepted that Love is the Law and has dedicated my Life to Her. My oaths to Her would not allow me to join or lend energies to any organization that was not in accordance to Her TrueWill, so I have painstakenly worked on my own, or with other like minded women.
Crossing the abyss means one has completed the Great Work, No?
if one has completed the the Great Work, doesnt that mean that they have repaired any damaged DNA?
The BB would not be able, be equipt, to create that....to repair the damages, and come out whole, correct?
I sincerly would like to have some one give me a solid answer on those questions.
I love this planet, and someday I may be able to create my own, but till then my alligences are with Her, so I dont think I need to worry about crossing the abyss. If another human being has allready done it, then I have the capacity, and the memory to do it, for the original being allready laid the path at the micro level...if you will.
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To the Gala?
Oh, I got up and took off down the highway, waitin' for the limo to pick me up and take me.
My old man ran/limped after me and called me back home.
He's a faithful and true old man. He had some good things to say. I needed to hear them.
Never made it to the Gala though. Chockma blocked, I guess... lol...
But back to the serious folks...
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@Q789 said
"I fundamentally disagree with Crowley. I Myself, spent some years in this state and relate to hte 'desert' analogy that Ben describes in his article
hermetic.com/browe-archive/abyss2.htm"
That's an excellent article, thanks. The only thing I seriously disagree with is his assertion that it is significantly at odds with what Crowey wrote/taught on the subject.
It IS quite at odds with what the majority of the magical community makes out of Crowley's reports. People have read Crowley's words and made "something else" out of them. For this reason especially, the article serves as a valuable corrective.
I don't have time (or, actually, inclination) to do a complete breakdown but, just to hit Ben's summary points:
"There was no "jumping into the Abyss"; in fact, no Abyss as such."
In the way that is meaningful, this is contradicted - or at least clarified - by Ben's earlier statement, "The discontinuity, to the extent there is one, is entirely a matter of perspective; the transcendent view is dramatically different from the Self-centered view common to the lower levels." That's exactly what it is, the gap (of immeasurable scope) in the star's experience of itself.
"There was no confrontation with the Demon Choronzon, or any other supposed "denizen" of the "Abyss". No apparently external horrors of any sort, not even Chthulhu."
I submit that there was - but that what Ben (like others) expected from Crowley's writings was different from the actuality. (Remember, for example, that the entire published record of Crowley's Vision of the 10th Aethyr is not the report of Crowley's experience - it's the report of Victor Neuberg's experience. See my Visions & Voices for a detailed breakdown of this.) The error is in thinking of Choronzon in the classic Medieval magick (and modern movie) sense. It does appear, for example, that Ben had long experience with the state of dispersion, indirection, unconcentratedness, absence of control or motivation to particular action, etc. - and many more subtle things - which make up the essential nature of Choronzon (whom I have called The Anti-Will). The essence of Choronzon is "incontinence and dispersion."
"No particular invocations were involved in triggering the event. It took place during an hiatus in my Enochian work, and that work was directed to other purposes in any case. "
I agree. This isn't like that. I can't think of a single place that Crowley said an invocation was necessary, except that the specific work being done at his exact point in time required him to continue with the next step (which was the next aethyr).
On the other hand, in everything I have seen, the crossing IS a consequence of a decision. (The "plunging in" - though "slipping in" might be more accurate most of the time - is involuntary. The "crossing," by which I mean the final setting foot on new land, is a consequence of a decision. It sometimes looks like a realization, but that realization is the reification of a decision.)
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I will agree with you on so many points you wrote above. I don't totally agree with EVERY THING Ben wrote- just the main point. Remember, that we have two, three or five different perspectives here. Crowley was obliviously terrified by it( the concept of dissolving the I)- whilst others arn't(for example).
I would put it a different way and say- i can totally relate to what Ben wrote.Bens perspective is that there is not abyss..........well ...........eeeerrrrrrrrrrrr .......... there appears to be- however it is not a sephiro, as such. To me it most certainly acts as a barrier so that those forces above cannot reach those (her feet not touching the little flowers) below. Anyone, who has real experience with these forces should understand this- not just nightmares(as famous story tellers speak of), but probable genetically damage. Sometimes, you need to raise your plants in a greenhouse- right? So IMO there is at least one good purpose for this design of the universe. This particular, design, i beleive goes back to the end of the Dreamtime. You see, IMO if those forces where allowed full access to this planet, then we would need many many more people who know how to control them, than we do right now. We would also need a different spiritual/cultural system than we do now- probably one based on ..... well you tell me.
Q
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@Q789 said
"Bens perspective is that there is not abyss..........well ...........eeeerrrrrrrrrrrr .......... there appears to be- however it is not a sephiro, as such."
Well, duh! No body every said the Abyss is a sephirah. (Separate from the Abyss is the idea of Da'ath, which is IN the Abyss - and I've long emphasized that Da'ath isn't a sephirah. The sepiroth are "ten and not nine, ten and not eleven.")
I detect your sincerity, and I know of Ben's sincerity. But there is a serious risk of celebrating the knocking over of scarecrows: Misunderstanding what Crowley wrote, crediting him with things he never said and ideas he never held, and then triumphantly trouncing them. "Since Abraham Lincoln had a secret agenda to recapture the liberated slaves once they came north and use them for genetic experiments, it's really good that somebody shot hin when they did." That sort of thing.
So, I repeat: My only real trouble with the article is the assertion that its concluions are at odds with what Crowley taught in the first place.
"To me it most certainly acts as a barrier so that those forces above cannot reach those (her feet not touching the little flowers) below."
The perimeter of the ego, and insistence on living inside that perimeter, is the wall, and the psyche IS structured to hold tightly, almost in panic, against the crumbling of that wall. (Until, of course, something changes its mind.)
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Hi x-munki,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Firstly, I know this thread is months old, but it is still a relevant one.
To get this thread back on the topic that you started:
@x-munki said
"Can the whole thing be brought back up somehow (to finish the job)? Can the contact be redeemed?"
I'll tell you right now: even if you have fallen into the Abyss, it is still possible to cross the Abyss successfully and attain to Understanding and Wisdom.
However it's not possible to abort and restart the crossing. You can't get ejected from the Abyss, below the supernals in order to "try again". The person in question is "in the Abyss" and they have to continue from there.
Jim Eshelman correctly referenced Crowley and the Curriculum of the A.'. A.'., to show that the A.'. A.'. curriculum and cosmology provides no avenue for getting out of the Abyss if the entry was done without one's Holy Guardian Angel. Basically; once you fail to cross the Abyss cleanly and quickly, you're "done" for this incarnation.
However, I have found that this is not the case. If a person falls in the Abyss; through will or through weakness, there is still the chance for "redemption" as it were.
I can say all of this because in 2006 I fell in the Abyss, and I found the way out.
I don't say "fell in the Abyss" flippantly; the Abyss is referred to a lot on these forums and understandably there is a lot of confusion around it. I did not merely have some weird dreams or visions, or crazy synchronicities, or become introspective and then declare that I had crossed the Abyss, or fall into a deep depression that lasted for a while or anything like that.
When I say that I fell in to the Abyss, I mean that I fell in to the Abyss. Within days of that critical juncture and my subconscious decision to fail, the dispersion of Choronzon settled on my brows. My genitals shrunk and became impotent, my mind was catapulted into the Archetypal world and began dispersing under the tremendous weight of my Karma. I would physically get knocked down backwards as if I was standing in an undertow on the shores of some ocean. Time slowed down immensely and I was stricken with insomnia. The lightning flashes of Da'ath crackled all around me. I saw what my True Will was but was completely powerless to achieve it. I saw my entire world crumbling around me and in short, I was in Hell and there was no way out.
And yet, I knew instinctively that this was not to be my end. Even in the state that I was in, I somehow knew that this was "all a part of it" for me and I became determined to not wither and die.
It became my duty to find the way out and to walk that path. This is what I have done, and I now share the way out that I found.
I have written the first volume of a book called "The Keys to Heaven", and I share this book freely with all those who have fallen in the Abyss. It is no mere theory, I have walked this path and I have turned what I have learned and experienced in to a book that can guide others out too. The book contains the bare minimum of what you need to get moving and keep moving on that path. It's not a quick fix, but it works.
So much of the path involves working things out for yourself, and having those AHA! moments. I have kept it as brief as possible and try to describe the things to do but not what to expect, so that I didn't spoil any surprises.
To support the understanding of book I've started a blog where people can ask questions and get clarification if they need.
For anyone who has fallen in the Abyss and wants it; the first volume of the book can be downloaded from my blog. The link is contained in this post (the link may be updated from time to time) - quietrespite.wordpress.com/2012/11/10/welcome-to-quiet-respite
The blog is: quietrespite.wordpress.com and I am available to all who ask for help.
Love is the law, love under will
B.'. H.'.
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@Lykathea said
"Hi Frater B:. H:.,
I've read through your book and it seems to be a perfect example of Tav phenomena. Sorry :disappointed: and I have experienced Tav phenomena a great deal in my life."I thought the same, and I've just past through Tav myself.
Don't mistake Yesod for Binah, otherwise you'll simply stop in Yesod.
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For instance:
It states in that book that in the abyss you get a sort of insight into your true will, but are unable to put it into practice. But if you were really at the threshold of the abyss you would have done this long before.
The phenomena you refer to is one of the aspects of the path of Tau, and in fact if fits closely with my own experiences of that path.
I suggest you reassess your experience, but of course you will not
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Going only by what has been quoted here, I have to agree... This sounds utterly like Tav as the threshold between Assiah and Yetzirah.