Tarot
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"I'll be getting "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot" as soon as I can. Maybe that will shed some light"
That's a great primer if you are brand new to the Thoth Tarot. However, if you would like to take a more integrative approach to studying the Tarot I highly recommend this:
www.thelema.org/publications/books/LiberT.pdf
Not only is it intellectually satisfying but it will give you a very practical and hands-on approach to weaving the Tarot into your psyche. When you are ready for that ofcourse
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@Al-Shariyf said
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"I'll be getting "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot" as soon as I can. Maybe that will shed some light"That's a great primer if you are brand new to the Thoth Tarot. "
Sorry, I just can't agree with you here. It's an awful piece and anyone claiming otherwise should go and read the Book of Thoth, which is actually not very hard. Demanding, yes, but not hard, and it yields an infinite amount of knowledge more than Lon's book.
I can only say that it's a (pretty alright/mediocre) 101 as far as Tarot basics go. It doesn't bring anything new to the game, and it leaves the majority (over 90%) of the Book of Thoth out, which, in my opinion as an avid Thoth student is quite an awful move.
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"Sorry, I just can't agree with you here. It's an awful piece and anyone claiming otherwise should go and read the Book of Thoth, which is actually not very hard. Demanding, yes, but not hard, and it yields an infinite amount of knowledge more than Lon's book."
We can agree to disagree. When I first started out, I couldn't understand Crowley for shit. I picked up the Book of Thoth and Lon's book the same day I got my deck. I didn't read the BoT for months. Lon's book was perfect for me at that particular time in my develpoment. I don't know where SerpentSeed is but Lon's book may be what they need for where they are at the moment.
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I'll be perfectly honest with you: the Little White Book that comes with the deck covers about the same amount of information as Lon's book does, with exception of the Rosy Cross formula, the Vesica piscis, the color scales, and the astrological attributions. All of which can just be looked up from the internet or 777, as they're quite simple to comprehend. And they're on the cards anyway, so you don't really need a diagram if you're just divining.
Plus, if the OP is serious, he'd dive right into the matter, instead of dabbling around.
Furthermore:
www.bookdepository.com/Understanding-Aleister-Crowleys-Thoth-Tarot-Lon-Milo-DuQuette/9781578632763
350 pages, "Authoritative", "everything you need to know to get the most out of using the Thoth deck."
I feel sick when I see people buying this book. Actually, let me cite you something from the book, just to show you how bad it is, the fragment is about Atu V - The Hierophant:"The hexagram can be seen enclosing the whole body of the Hierophant."
If you've ever seen the card, you know straight away that this is plain bullpucky. He's not even trying here, and the rest of the books is just as shallow compared to TBOT, which, needless to say, has its flaws, but is the ultimate compendium on the deck nonetheless, provided that one really does study it, instead of reading it once and leaving it be.
I hope I made my point clear here.
Have a good day. -
"If you've ever seen the card, you know straight away that this is plain bullpucky."
Ehhhhh.... I think maybe you're missing something... You've made a hard, absolute interpretation of the pentagram that seems to me to be intentionally stretched and distorted - I think to suggest a hexagram.
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See how the scepter that the High Priestess is holding continues the tip of the internal pentagram downward to the bottom of the Atu? To me, the distortion and the continued point of the scepter seems artisticaly to suggest the hexagram that the author is talking about. That, along with the fact that the High Priestess (associated with the Moon) stands and holds her scepter at the point that would be normally be held by the Moon in the planetary hexagram seems to me to confirm this symbolism. To me, it suggests some combination of the 5 and the 6, or some transition from the 5 to the 6, or vice versa, expressed by the imagery that is worthy of meditation.
It takes a while for the mind to be made pliable enough to really understand the symbolism of the tarot. Everybody's got to start somewhere. I think it's written simply, but not ignorantly as you accuse.
As for me, I've found Mr. Duquette's work to be invaluable - especially that work most hated by the "serious-minded" occultist - The Chicken Qabalah. Bock! Bock! Bock!
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Well, I can't see a hexagram here, regardless of how I bend my mind.
Besides, the inner pentagrams wouldn't fit if it was a hexagram.
Also, an important thing to keep in mind is that the journey always goes inwards, which the three pentagrams underline here.
I have found that the hebrew letter/ atu number attributions work best alone, in this case giving the 5=6 formula, instead of pushing it into the image when it's obviously not there.Bottom line: there is no hexagram on the card, period.
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Perhaps not, but the pentagrams are irregular - even to the point of distorting the larger pentagram to include a downward-pointing, precisely equillateral triangle with 60 degree angles...
As the only precisely angled pentagram on the Atu is in the very center, with the rest stretched seemingly to achieve the construction of the precisely equilateral, downward-pointing triangle (which also just happens to be artistically extended in the proper direction with the proper planetary hexagram symbolism), I think perhaps you are missing the artist's intent.
I'm just sayin'... But that's probably all I'm sayin'.
Peace.
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@Surg said
"Well, I can't see a hexagram here, regardless of how I bend my mind."
I'm puzzled... it isn't that difficult. It is clearly a hexagram (thoough, admittedly, the lower point is more implied than stated... much like instruction from The Hierophant).
The think I think you are missing is that it isn't the number of points, but other things like the number of degrees in each angle. Those are not at all 72° angles (as they would be with a pentagram. They are very close to 60° angles (as they are in a hexagram).
"Besides, the inner pentagrams wouldn't fit if it was a hexagram."
On the contrary: An important key to understanding The Hierophant is the coexistence of the 5 and the 6. (It's even in the basic numeric patterns of the card: Atu 5, letter value 6 - as you later noted.)
"Bottom line: there is no hexagram on the card, period."
You're quite funny
The geometry is emphatically that of a hexagram. -
"Bock! Bock! Bock! "
I literally lost it at my desk just now. Hilarious. Also, very enlightening. That Goddamn distorted hexagram frustrates me so much but your explanation shed light on things that were previously in the dark for me. Cheers.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Surg said
"Well, I can't see a hexagram here, regardless of how I bend my mind."I'm puzzled... it isn't that difficult. It is clearly a hexagram (thoough, admittedly, the lower point is more implied than stated... much like instruction from The Hierophant).
"Verily. Up to the point that I seem entirely blind to it.
@Jim Eshelman said
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The think I think you are missing is that it isn't the number of points, but other things like the number of degrees in each angle. Those are not at all 72° angles (as they would be with a pentagram. They are very close to 60° angles (as they are in a hexagram).
"Can be, but we're talking about penta and hexa grams, which are about the number of lines, not the angles, as shown by the large pentagram encompassing the figure of the Hierophant.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"Besides, the inner pentagrams wouldn't fit if it was a hexagram."
On the contrary: An important key to understanding The Hierophant is the coexistence of the 5 and the 6. (It's even in the basic numeric patterns of the card: Atu 5, letter value 6 - as you later noted.)
"Agreed, however that is a pattern that follows throughout the cards, and I have mostly noticed it between the card numbers and hebrew letters, rarely finding them in the illustrations. A very prominent example is The Emperor, IV/90 => square, or tetrahedron.
@Jim Eshelman said
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"Bottom line: there is no hexagram on the card, period."
You're quite funny
The geometry is emphatically that of a hexagram."Not so. There is a descending triangle, agreed, but for all I know (and that's not very much) it's mostly about attainment (Adeptus Minor) and descent back into matter from there. But hey, what do I know? I'm not even close to being an adept yet.
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I would agree that it is a pentagram (the two pairs of lines at the bottom of the card will meet in the two legs of the pentagram). But I would also agree that the way it's stretched clearly implies a hexagram. The downward triangle is equilateral, as it would be for a hexagram, and if you gaze at the card at arms length, the gestalt impression is of a hexagram with an unfinished bottom.
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Is that a scepter or a sword that she's got? The bottom looks like a sword, but if so, then the hilt seems impractical, and she'd be holding it by the blade. I can't tell.
Either way, the original sub-topic is really about whether or not Mr. Duquette was phoning it in when he wrote that hexagram bit about the Hierophant in * Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot*.
I don't think so. I think he was simplifying very complex symbolism. Maybe it was written so simply as to confuse the reader. But we have not been simple about it, and it has required many words and abstruse concepts even to debate. That's the kind of thing that turns beginners off. So to me, it seems like a choice, and the choice makes sense.
Surgo - I think you should reconsider your vehement rejection of the book. But if not, then we'll simply disagree.
Welcome to the forum...
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Flashlight. Definitely a flashlight...
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While the presence of a regular hexagram is debatable, the implication is most assuredly there.
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@Dar es Allrah said
"So from one perspective - that of the outward appearance - the hexagram is implied by the apparent marriage of creative fire and watery equilibrium by the robes of the Priest and Priestess, but the symbol shown on the card suggests the more fundamental relationship is between Spirit and Water. Or perhaps Spirit in the Act of Creativity - appearing fiery, united with Spirit in the Act of Equilibrium, and appearing watery, as befits a universal solvent?"
Thanks, Dar.
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The arrangement of the hexagram brings this to my mind:
The water triangle, completed:
What descends from above;
Which can only ever equal,
The Flame within -
@Bereshith said
"I think perhaps you are missing the artist's intent. "
The description of the Hierophant from the 1942 exhibition catalogue (written by Harris herself) - complete with three pentagrams.
"..... The pentagram with a point upwards and the dancing child shows that he has the heart of a child; in the reversed pentagram the meaning seems to suggest he has dominion through will; the final pentagram again points upwards, showing his acceptance of a governing cosmic law. ...."
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While I accept literalists as brothers, I refuse to argue with them about abstract and symbolic art.
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@Bereshith said
"While I accept literalists as brothers, I refuse to argue with them about abstract and symbolic art."
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Surg said
"Bottom line: there is no hexagram on the card, period."
By my own estimation, there's an apparent hexagram here, but the traditional fire triangle has been replaced by the top point of a larger pentagram reaching outside the frame of the card (mostly below it). The pitch of the angle suggests this, as its the same as the inner upright pentagram with the child in it. The four cherubic, elemental points of the larger pentagram are, again, outside of the frame of the card. The highest horizontal line of this larger pentagram might be seen if it weren't for the robes of the Hierophant.
Aside from all that, what's interesting to me is bottom point of the proper water triangle is touching the apex of another polygon.
Love is the law, love under will.