Energized enthusiasm and HPA-axis triggering
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@Dar es Allrah said
"@ Frater INRI: Good.
"Ehm, there is more to say, but I feel that would be slightly too much for the public forum.
Certain things are very up close and personal, so... -
@Frater 639 said
"
It is great to have this information at our disposal as Thelemites -- to offer, with the language of science, something that could be considered less "snake-oily" to the skeptic, who dismisses many things Magick as New Age or worse. We can also refine our current terms to include modern science's take on these phenomena, which I consider very helpful in regard to the momentum behind the convergence of systems. All the metaphysical terms are great for a spiritual language that we can talk metaphorically about, but I think Crowley spent a great deal of time studying the most modern methods of behavior analysis...with an aim of being more credible...
"In the light of the above, what is your take on Dimethyltryptamine?
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@Frater INRI said
"In the light of the above, what is your take on Dimethyltryptamine?"
Well, in a scientific/materialist context, DMT is structurally like serotonin, like all the other tryptamines. My take is that it is unfortunate that we can't test these chemicals further in a clinical setting, so their use is reduced to black market products that can be extremely dangerous. It is difficult to ascertain medical and psychological benefits without more data and study.
For me personally, it is not a beneficial sacrament in my Work at this time. But, I do acknowledge that it is fun and interesting way to reframe reality temporarily by provoking a non-linear state of consciousness. It's amazing what the gasoline-based machinery does on rocket fuel!
The "spiritual" effects are extremely subjective, as everything "spiritual" is, and that isn't worth commenting on. Maybe a nice poem or a Jimi Hendrix song would do...
After personal experimentation, my personal opinion regarding mixing magick with psychoactive agonist chemicals is that it isn't very beneficial for my Work. I've found that it can cause obsession and stunt growth. However, this is only the conclusion that I came to after much experimentation while recording the data - also, neurotoxicity and the effects of prolonged serotonin substitution can have undesirable effects on the psychosoma.
However, this doesn't mean that I think it couldn't be used for beneficial medical purposes...but we lack an appreciable amount of credible data to come to any sort of consensus...
In conclusion, to each their own! Do what thou wilt!
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@Frater 639 said
"
Well, in a scientific/materialist context, DMT is... "Yeah, well,
I was asking about something else, more along the lines of "To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all." (part of Liber AL II:22)
(please, I am not advocating drug abuse here)@Frater 639 said
"
For me personally, it is not a beneficial sacrament in my Work at this time. But, I do acknowledge that it is fun and interesting way to reframe reality temporarily by provoking a non-linear state of consciousness. It's amazing what the gasoline-based machinery does on rocket fuel! "Exactly.
Not just amazing, also potentially very insightful.@Frater 639 said
"
After personal experimentation, my personal opinion regarding mixing magick with psychoactive agonist chemicals is that it isn't very beneficial for my Work. I've found that it can cause obsession and stunt growth. However, this is only the conclusion that I came to after much experimentation while recording the data - also, neurotoxicity and the effects of prolonged serotonin substitution can have undesirable effects on the psychosoma. "Interesting...especially when shamans of old have been using this stuff for thousands of years.
@Frater 639 said
"
However, this doesn't mean that I think it couldn't be used for beneficial medical purposes...but we lack an appreciable amount of credible data to come to any sort of consensus...
"Yeah, well, I am not a medical doctor and I don't give a flying f**k about clinical (on my planet 'clinical' translates to: dull and shortsighted) research.
Thank you for your thoughts, though
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@Dar es Allrah said
"Yes- the Shamanic path is very demanding and has all sorts of pitfalls. "
Exactly.
The shaman I know doesn't even consider taking someone on the "journey" without thorough preparation and examination of intention, motives, mental state etc...
'Cause there are goals and goals, and means and means.@Dar es Allrah said
"
... cause I'm sure Frater INRI doesn't need this advice..."
Ladies and gentlemen, may I present you my freshly appointed PR professional: Dar es Allrah
(ehm, what does your name mean, BTW, pls?) -
@Frater INRI said
"Yeah, well,
I was asking about something else, more along the lines of "To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all." (part of Liber AL II:22)
(please, I am not advocating drug abuse here)"Drug abuse is a term mostly dictated by clinical research and lawmakers -- not our glorious, quotable prophet!
But really, that's not fair -- you didn't specify with your question. You asked a very vague question that could be looked at through many different lenses. I understand your quotation and I agree wholeheartedly with it, in the context of personal drug use.
@Frater INRI said
"Interesting...especially when shamans of old have been using this stuff for thousands of years."
Appeals to antiquity are a logical fallacy. I'm personally not a Luddite.
Seriously though, shamanism is all well and good, and I'm not discrediting anyone's spiritual path. I'm concerned with usefulness in my Path. I'm also concerned with objective data as well as subjective data.
@Frater INRI said
"Yeah, well, I am not a medical doctor and I don't give a flying f**k about clinical (on my planet 'clinical' translates to: dull and shortsighted) research."
Yes, I see your point. Fortunately, the scientific method isn't going away anytime soon, and that's mostly how we gather qualitative and quantitative data -- unfortunately, we have to include clinical research to remain objective to a certain point. And I'd rather have clinical research than (say) a shaman's revelation. But, that's my personal opinion...
Your planet *is *different than other people's planets and I hope research remains objective to include both. I'm simply arguing that we don't have enough data to make a truly educated decision of how beneficial DMT is, from a purely scientific standpoint. However, personally, do what thou wilt!
I find it very useful to separate my scientific method from my spiritual method.
For instance, I would rather see a medical doctor than a shaman for pretty much everything physical. I don't need a facilitator for my spiritual journey other than myself -- if that includes drugs, that's quite alright.
This thread was about magical techniques and their effect on our physiology in the light of current neuroscience, not about agonistic drugs and how spiritually enlightening they are -- and I don't disagree that they can be.
I think we can disagree on how important drug use is when it comes to usefulness in our respective Work presently -- and I also think experimentation and use, if you find it beneficial, is very important -- but using caution and objectivity will save a lot of trouble...I think we agree on that.
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@Frater 639 said
"
Yes, I see your point. Fortunately, the scientific method isn't going away anytime soon, and that's mostly how we gather qualitative and quantitative data -- unfortunately, we have to include clinical research to remain objective to a certain point. And I'd rather have clinical research than (say) a shaman's revelation. But, that's my personal opinion..."In my view, it is empirical knowledge versus clinically collected data.
But I see your point.
@Frater 639 said
"
Your planet *is *different than other people's planets and I hope research remains objective to include both. I'm simply arguing that we don't have enough data to make a truly educated decision of how beneficial DMT is, from a purely scientific standpoint. However, personally, do what thou wilt!I find it very useful to separate my scientific method from my spiritual method.
"Yes, I can understand that.
@Frater 639 said
"
For instance, I would rather see a medical doctor than a shaman for pretty much everything physical. I don't need a facilitator for my spiritual journey other than myself -- if that includes drugs, that's quite alright.This thread was about magical techniques and their effect on our physiology in the light of current neuroscience, not about agonistic drugs and how spiritually enlightening they are -- and I don't disagree that they can be."
OK.
@Frater 639 said
"
I think we can disagree on how important drug use is when it comes to usefulness in our respective Work presently -- and I also think experimentation and use, if you find it beneficial, is very important -- but using caution and objectivity will save a lot of trouble...I think we agree on that."Yes, we do.
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@Frater INRI said
"In my view, it is empirical knowledge versus clinically collected data."
Something for you to ponder: It appears to me that the word "clinical" has an emotionally loaded value to you (which means it means something to you other than or more than the standard dictionary definition). The standard definition (in my own words) is "clean or controlled environment for observation." In other words, a place to conduct experiments without external contaminants interfering with the collection of empirical data. If it means something nasty or negative to you in addition or instead of that definition, that's a personal illusion.
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@Takamba said
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Something for you to ponder: It appears to me that the word "clinical" has an emotionally loaded value to you (which means it means something to you other than or more than the standard dictionary definition). The standard definition (in my own words) is "clean or controlled environment for observation." In other words, a place to conduct experiments without external contaminants interfering with the collection of empirical data. If it means something nasty or negative to you in addition or instead of that definition, that's a personal illusion."Yes, if you pledge your allegiance to Oxford dictionary of modern English.
Thankfully, there is a whole lot more to life than "standard dictionary definitions".Well said, though.
Personal illusions are hard at work here. -
@Takamba said
"In other words, a place to conduct experiments without external contaminants interfering with the collection of empirical data."
Hey...let's not forget the "internal" contaminants, too!
That's a very clear synopsis of what I was trying to point out, Takamba. Thank you.
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If you are to look at the axis, look at ALL of it at once.
You have your Keys, or neurotransmitters. Mainly serotonin --
(or dmt, since dmt is the original neurotransmitter known to the fetus before any other in the mouth, and moves up to the brain to form the pineal gland. As if to say, "learn to sing yourself into existence. Abrahadabra.") --opioids/opiates/ and the entire dopamine-related line of keys, nor/epinephrine as you stated, then the endorphins that get triggered by all three. But those are the main three that you could call the "consciousness" triggers. All the ion channels, post/presynaptic stuff is a result or directly part of these processes.
DMT, or it's unevolved brother Serotonin, are both made and used in the brain all day, and these two, along with other 5HT receptor keys, are the "I'm awake(or I'm dreaming)" experience channel activators.
The opiates make the above process possible and as sane as possible. Since our dreams are only the after-hallucinations of an intense, forgotten DMT experience every night, you can imagine what the brain might need to make you think you are sane.
(Every night, during REM sleep, the pineal gland starts throwing out almost as much DMT as it throws out during birth/death, and an experience is produced that is so intense that it causes the brain to temporarily shut off its memory mechanisms.)
This is what the opiates, (and in turn, activated by other neurotransmitters, the endorphins,) do for you. Now Serotonin is the sugary, unevolved brother of DMT, and our brain stays "slow" or "sane" from glucose constantly as well. (Substances that have been PROVEN to increase the actively used part of the brain directly lower the glucose levels.)
DMT is just pounding on the door that, to quote a terrible book,
"could not be opened by a thousand Lucifers,"
and we, as star-babies, are at constant need to suckle something. Check out Red Fezz's signature for a good quote from Crowley on this.
"I've never grown out of the infantile belief that the universe was made for me to suck."Now we get into the nor/Epinephrine category. This is for when our brain knows it's being suckled in this dream, but something triggers it's millions of years old process of needing to survive. This includes flight/fight/hunting, sex, and being ready for anything at any time. This is literally the boost our higher selves put into our brains at this level to balance out the
"up, please, daddy daddy, up!", and the
"I've had enough flying around now daddy, please put me down now or I might puke" basic ideas of consciousness. You can see how the epinephrines are a more "adult" process that kicks in after one learns one's way around the survival circuit/mechanism.Just throwing something in here I thought might clear up the cycle of consciousness you are discussing -- hoping you can see a pattern you might have been looking for when you threw your original "question"
out there.Peace and Power Fraters and Sorors.
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You're speaking directly of "growing up" on the psychedelics.
Moving from eating a couple hits or an eighth of mushrooms and lying almost helpless in your bed starfuc|<ed from the effects, to eating ten hits or ten grams of mushrooms, walking around anywhere you wish in public, talking "public officials" easily into leaving you alone while walking off pondering their own life, talking intelligent circles around your friends whilst trying to bring them up to your level, and (drumroll), doing ceremonial Magick at that level.
I believe it comes from developing your language and communication centers.. not only from you to others, but from you to yourself --
Psychedelics open up pathways in the brain other than the normal 10% used during waking hours, plus it opens up pathways that are normally not available even during the DMT blast of REM sleep, nor even before you were born.This forces one to learn to communicate to oneself, (one pathway to another, and so on,) so that one can coordinate shape, color, distance, ideas, light, darkness, and survive at that higher frequency. This also lends one the ability and capacity to act like you totally know what you're doing in front of your friends.
Before one has reached such levels, coca tea can help greatly, and is not addictive nor does it cause crashes like the one I will not mention. (In my opinion, the pure does not cause crashes, hangovers, or any of the sort, but is only addictive.) That seems to be why it's openly available in America without tampering with the tea itself. You get all the benefits without becoming a ghoul if you do too much.
Now we are talking about activating the axis at a level that is temporarily in the higher-evolved state. (Also something that makes expressing any ideas very easy.) C not only stops re-uptake of dopamine and releasing extra, but also does the same two things with the serotonin (and in turn, DMT,) and the nor/epinephrine. You could easily say that if you could train a human to not use too much or become reliant on it, C would be the perfect substance to evolve humanity. Crowley goes into depth in this, while all the time keeping an
"OK, I'm trying to push this stuff on intellectuals, but I have to word it as if everyone, including the government will read it what I am communicating."I think he did an excellent job. You could say I have been drinking coca tea off and on since 2009 without any ill effects.
Now there's plenty of herbs to activate the axis and it's components, and most are legal to buy over the internet, even if not completely legal to sell in a store to anyone you would wish, or even admit you consume. Poppies are an excellent example of this. Coca tea, however, is completely legal. So are all the wonderful rainforest herbs like Chacruna, Mimosa, Ayahuasca, Cocoa, Coffee, Yerba, and many others.
Three of my favorites are passionflower, valerian root, and syrian rue, though not from the rainforest.
Excellent thread.
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Passionflower is a mild MAOI, so if you take anything that interferes with it, including caffeine, you will sweat and whatnot.
Not sure about skullcap.
MAOs are what break down almost every neurotransmitter we use, including the ones we just discussed. This means that if you take an MAOI like passionflower and drink caffeine, or take an SSRI or some other MAOI in medication, you will have too many neurotransmitters flowing around in your noggin. Serotonin syndrome and excess nor/epinephrine is usually the case.
PM me if you need any sources. I've got them all.
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Rhodiola rosea is an maoi inhibitor, but a very weak one. If I were you, I would take straight up syrian rue extract or syrian rue. You only need a gram or two for antidepressant effects more powerful than prescription maois and ssri antidepressants.
As for your opiate "effect", I would either keep the rosea, (less likely for me to do than the next suggestions,) or take Kratom, Passionflower, Poppy, Papaver Rhoeas (red Poppy,) Clitoria ternatea, Valerian, Hops, or one of the many other herbs that mimic opiates or actually act directly upon the opiate receptors.
I would not suggest you do Poppy or Kratom every day, for as we all should know, Poppies and their exudate sap was the secret reason for almost all wars, even up to today. Tea was drank but not really spoken of, and not written about much, (ahem.) In other words, almost the entire old world drank opium, (especially artists, soldiers, samurais, etc.) Now you can drink the tea on and off without ill effects, but if I were you I would not implement it or Kratom, (for similar, less intense reasons,) for every day use. Maybe 7 days out of the month, one cup of tea a day will not hinder thee at all for that period of time.
(but not so intensely as the icon suggests. A glass of burgundy is enough for a night.)