Another quick question for Jim.
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@ThelemicMage said
"I am hearing this.
This thread and your reply has me actively interested in trying both out and seeing the difference."
I just finished updating my long essay on the ritual; but you can get the main points from the three-part article in Black Pearl Nos. 5, 6, and 8.
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I've never looked at it like this before.
I shall have to download the pearls and check this specific one out.
I do thank you, sir Jim, for your time and expertise.
I will probably post a question or two when I get done with this and all the other work I'm doing now.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"In most situations, the LBR. It's the most perfect ritual ever written for its purposes! And the feel is far better.
But I do prefer Star Ruby occasionally for particular kinds of things. It fits the tone of an occasional ritual far better. It has a "plant some dynamite a blow EVERYTHING the {****} away" feel which zi almost never want - banishings generally should be more subtle - but which sometimes you need."
Thank you. I have to choose which banishing I'm to commit to for my year of Probation, so I wanted to hear your thoughts; this helps greatly. I think I will ease in with the LBRP, with a periodical Star Ruby to see how it feels. My Neophyte suggested I start with the Ruby, but my gut suggested I get a second opinion.
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@Duo Columpnas said
"I have to choose which banishing I'm to commit to for my year of Probation,"
That's... how should I put this? ... irregular. In fact, I bet I could list half a dozen violations of A.'.A.'. principles in that one sentence. - I'm not telling you what to do . I'm just sayin' ...
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
That's... how should I put this? ... irregular. In fact, I bet I could list half a dozen violations of A.'.A.'. principles in that one sentence. - I'm not telling you what to do . I'm just sayin' ...
"Truly? What's irregular about it? I had no idea. Here is what was said in the instructions:
" Speaking of the year's regimen, please decide on a program to stick with through the year. A banishing ritual is mandatory, in addition to anything else you may choose. Liber XXV the Star Ruby is ideal. You may choose from the full gamut of Class D A.'.A.'. practices (one of the reasons I mentioned compiling a list) such as committing to doing Asana for one year, or Pranayama, or Liber Resh vel Helios, or some other one practice in addition to your chosen banishing rite."
I may have misunderstood what was said here, but it appeared to me as if I was being told to choose only one, at least for the duration of the Probation. I intend to experiment before I commit of course, but it didn't strike me as unorthodox, just that it was a practice in establishing discipline, as is the work of the Probationer.
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From One Star In Sight, about the Probationer.
"His principal business is to begin such practices as he may prefer, and to write a careful record of the same for one year."
It's about experimenting (probationer=testing/proving, both of the candidate by the order, and of different practices by the the candidate) with a wide variety of practices. From what I've observed from other people (I'm not in the A.'.A.'. yet), the main challenge of the grade is about keeping up practices and a record for a year with little-to-know guidance from the order. Too much instruction/limitation really circumvents the essential challenge.
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Various points larger and smaller:
Probationer practices are primarily based on Class B documents, not Class C.
"He may select any practices that he prefers, but in any case must keep an exact record so that he may discover the relation of cause and effect in his working, and so that the A.'.A.'. may judge of his progress and direct his fur-ther studies." It looks like they are trying to skirt under the wire by asking you to pick specific practice and stick to them for a year, whereas the real value (and intended method) is that you stumble through for a year, trying a bunch of things, going down one road and then a different one, all the time keeping notes etc. It's one big "trial and error" process.
Here's amother key quote: "I am authorised to say that no one will be admitted as a Neophyte unless his year’s work [as a Probationer] gives evidence of considerable attainment in the fundamental practices, Asana, Pranayama, assumption of God-forms, vibration of divine names, rituals of banishing and invoking, and the practices set out in sections 5 and 6 of Liber O. Although he is not examined in any of these, the elementary experience is necessary in order that he may intelligently assist those who will be under him." In other words, though not examined in anything from Liber E or Liber O, the record needs to show "considerable attainment" in the things listed therein - part of the "try it all and keep notes" approach.
Draw your own conclusions on the following passage (I have emphasized some parts):
"I have been asked by Authority to say a few words on the relations which should subsist between a Neophyte and his Probationers. Though a Neophyte is obliged to show ‘zeal in service’ towards his probationers, it is no part of his duty to be continually beating the tattoo. He has his own work to do... and he cannot be expected to spend all his time in making silk purses out of pigs’ ears. He is not expected to set definite tasks, nor has he authority to do so. The Probationer is purposely left to himself, as the object of probation is principally that those in authority may discover the nature of the raw material. It is the duty of the Probationer to perform the exercises recommended in his text-books, and to submit the record of his results for criticism. If he finds himself in a difficulty, or if any unforeseen result occurs, he should communicate with his Neophyte, and he should remember that although he is permitted to select the practices which appeal to him, he is expected to show considerable acquaintance with all of them. More than acquaintance, it should be experience; otherwise what is he to do when as a Neophyte he is consulted by his Probationers? It is important that he should be armed at all points...
But let no one imagine that those in authority will urge probationers to work hard. Those who are incapable of hard work may indeed be pushed along, but the moment that the pressure is removed they will fall back, and it is not the purpose of the A.'.A.'. to do anything else than to make its students independent and free. Full instruction has been placed within the reach of everybody; let them see to it that they make full use of that instruction."
And:
"It is presumptuous for a Neophyte to lay down rules; for (a) he cannot possibly know what his Probationer needs, having no record to guide him; (b) the Probationer’s task is to explore his own nature, not to follow any prescribed course. A third objection is that by putting the Probationer in Corsets, an entirely flabby person may sneak through his year, and become a Neophyte, to the shame of the Order. But this objection is theoretical; for Initiation is overseen from the Third Order, where no Error may endure."
"Speaking of the year's regimen, please decide on a program to stick with through the year."
I can't think offhand of a reasonable-sounding instruction that could be more destructive to the real prpose of the year of Probation.
"I intend to experiment before I commit of course"
That's much of what the whole period of Probationer is abou! It's the wide experimentation before actually starting the more directed garde-by-grade curriculum that begins in Neophyte.
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I think I may have just already completed the task of Probationer on my own before I even contacted the Order.
I had two years of being too young for initiation which I spent exploring and testing different paradigms, acting as if true, so I could be sure Thelema was where I needed to be by the time I was old enough to begin grade work. But those two years ended up taking me very far within myself, in spite of me not really trying to do anything or go anywhere in particular, so now that I'm here, a regimen is what I want. I am tired of willy-nilly experimentation, I seek some sort of structure. It's why A.'.A.'. appealed to me. I found I had quite a knack for the free-form practices I tried from the Chaos Magick current, especially infused with Thelemic heart, but it just got to the point where I couldn't go any further unless I established a set regimen, which is why I was happy to accept instructions to do just that.But of course, maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself.
All of your points are well-taken, be sure. I will proceed with caution towards the legitimacy of this Neophyte, but whether I was in A.'.A.'. or not, learning a banishing and beginning regular pranayama would be what I was doing for my own personal progression anyway.
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@Duo Columpnas said
"so now that I'm here, a regimen is what I want. I am tired of willy-nilly experimentation, I seek some sort of structure. It's why A.'.A.'. appealed to me."
A.'.A.'. (in the Probationer grade) doesn't provide that. It's basic formula is exactly the opposite. (Temple of Thelema provides it quite specifically. And A.'.A.'. gets not so much "regimen-providing" as "task-directed" to some extent in 1=10 and, especially, from 2=9 on.)
Having said that... Your task here is still one of self-discovery and, by trial and error, putting it into play. There is no reason at all that you can't do this by undertaking the particular things you have learned and isolated over the last two years (as long as you become familiar, in pratice, with everything - sufficiently that you can serve as a practical resource for any Probationers you receive in the future.
But YOU deciding to follow a particular regimen (in this large open space of your free-ranging options called Probation) is really different from a Neophyte imposing one on you, or requiring you to follow one. His or her job is to get out of the way and leave you the fuck alone unless you have specific questions.
Sorry. The grade has two Zeros in its enumeration for a reason. You are entering a vacuum. You can explore that vaccum by diving right into what you've figured out over the last two years - it surely wouldn't be the first time that a Probationer was sure he had it all figured out already <vbg>, and you just might have it all figured out! Still, the word Probation means "trial, testing, proving" - don't miss the chance to make the most out of this. (At least, that's my opinion and advice: Offered because you specifically asked for my opinion and advice.)
"I found I had quite a knack for the free-form practices I tried from the Chaos Magick current, especially infused with Thelemic heart, but it just got to the point where I couldn't go any further unless I established a set regimen, which is why I was happy to accept instructions to do just that."
Here is a regimen already specified in the basic Probationer definition. (This isn't me providing it, it's the system.) - Study ALL Class B documents. Practice what you will (with an eye to having experience with everything). Keep a record. Assess the record to draw conclusions on what works and what doesn't. Memorize a chapter of Liber LXV.
See
A regimen."All of your points are well-taken, be sure. I will proceed with caution towards the legitimacy of this Neophyte, but whether I was in A.'.A.'. or not, learning a banishing and beginning regular pranayama would be what I was doing for my own personal progression anyway."
Then do it for THAT reason! - and you'll be on track.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
A.'.A.'. (in the Probationer grade) doesn't provide that. It's basic formula is exactly the opposite. (Temple of Thelema provides it quite specifically. And A.'.A.'. gets not so much "regimen-providing" as "task-directed" to some extent in 1=10 and, especially, from 2=9 on.)Having said that... Your task here is still one of self-discovery and, by trial and error, putting it into play. There is no reason at all that you can't do this by undertaking the particular things you have learned and isolated over the last two years (as long as you become familiar, in pratice, with everything - sufficiently that you can serve as a practical resource for any Probationers you receive in the future.
But YOU deciding to follow a particular regimen (in this large open space of your free-ranging options called Probation) is really different from a Neophyte imposing one on you, or requiring you to follow one. His or her job is to get out of the way and leave you the {****} alone unless you have specific questions.
Sorry. The grade has two Zeros in its enumeration for a reason. You are entering a vacuum. You can explore that vaccum by diving right into what you've figured out over the last two years - it surely wouldn't be the first time that a Probationer was sure he had it all figured out already <vbg>, and you just might have it all figured out! Still, the word Probation means "trial, testing, proving" - don't miss the chance to make the most out of this. (At least, that's my opinion and advice: Offered because you specifically asked for my opinion and advice.)"
Yes, "task-directed" is certainly what I'm looking for, but I won't waste my Probation. I very much intend to learn what is needed to be of use to Probationers as a Neophyte later on, and the "vacuum" will allow me to throw what I've learned so far into the crucible to see what survives.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Here is a regimen already specified in the basic Probationer definition. (This isn't me providing it, it's the system.) - Study ALL Class B documents. Practice what you will (with an eye to having experience with everything). Keep a record. Assess the record to draw conclusions on what works and what doesn't. Memorize a chapter of Liber LXV.
See
A regimen. "Ha! Got it
Thank you for the stern advice.
I believe I have a much more balanced approach to this lineage--this whole deal--having received it.