Pressure to convert to Islam
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I'm not saying that you should never change anything for anyone, but something that goes as deep as your spiritual/religious orientation should be something that you couldn't change whether you want to or not. If this girl loves you then she'll accept you as you are, without trying to change your basic outlook on life.
I may be biased because I did once end a four year engagement on those grounds, and although it was painful and difficult at the time it was in retrospect the best thing I ever did.
believe me when I tell you that trying to hide your beliefs, or make silly compromises about them will damage you, it will divide you against yourself and eventually divide you and your loved one.
On the other hand, since you already show signs of drawing away from Thelema, maybe this is what you need? Either way, Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
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I would never convert to Islam because I don't care for the dogma. I also don't like how predominantly Muslim regions tend to have some rather harsh laws & customs relating to religion & spiritual practice (e.g. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Indonesia ). That's to say nothing of what happens when you're Muslim and decide you want to go a different route...
Also, I would strongly advise you to not marry a girl you're never even kissed, much less slept with. A significant component of a healthy, vital relationship is a good sex life, and some people are just fundamentally incompatible sexually, even if they are perfectly compatible in many other ways. You won't know until you've been together, and it just seems like a big risk to take.
This situation seems to have a lot of red flags in general, though. Five months of conversation to the emotional depth of love, and she's just now telling you that marrying a Muslim is important to her? Entirely LDR thus far, yes?
Maybe she's "The One" for you (validity of the concept notwithstanding), maybe she isn't. However, I believe one thing rather strongly: Any girl who wants me to "compromise" by giving up things truly and deeply resonant with me is certainly not right for me. She should support me in those things, even if they are not also her things.
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@Frater Tenc said
"I'm madly in love with a girl from Indonesia. I live in the united states, so obviously it's long distance and over skype, cell phones, and facebook. It's been about 5 months now. But recently she declared to me that she wants to marry a Muslim. And she's very sorry if I'm disappointed. I plan(ned?) on meeting her there within the next two months or so."
There are so many alarm bells going off in response to the above paragraph that I barely know where to begin. I'll start by saying that the other answers you've been receiving have been hitting the right marks.
For one, you don't seem deeply committed in one direction. While this might be cause to say, "What the hell, give it up, move on for love," I see also the other side: It's a lousy time to convert to anything. Conversion is a big deal (unless it isn't, in which case it's hypocrisy and runs the risk of having you live at deep odds with yourself).
Second, this seems a precarious basis on which to found a life union.
Several things aren't clear to me. I can't tell, for example, if you two have ever met. Despite the splendors of Skype, it doesn't begin to compare to the power of the smell of your lover's skin. And, besides, I have a deep skepticism about modern equivalents of "mail order brides." Until you've met, spent time together, explored the sexual aspects of your relationship, discovered whether you can coexist in day-to-day life, I don't think you have any basis for really determining that you want to marry for love - let alone sufficient basis to remold the whole of the practical and interior aspects of your life.
One thing I do know: Your plan (or "thinking out loud"), as outlined above, would base the whole of your marriage on a very large deception, a deception that not only is impractical but likely cuts to the quick of your beloved's beliefs. Founding a marriage on deception - on anything other than full openness and disclosure about the things that are deepest and most important to you - is a setup for problems that WILL undercut the marriage. Since you asked for advice, I'll give it: Don't found a marriage on any sort of deception.
"Anyway, I have been studying Islam anyway before I even met her on-and-off reading the Quran and interpreting it myself along with reading comments."
You are in an exploratory area of life. I see no inherent conflict between Thelema and Islam - or, for that matter, between Thelema and the practice of any other religion at all. Particular religions are method. But I do see a problem with your converting insincerely. And more, I see a problem in the restrictions imposed. Though I'm a "ritual nut," I don't define Thelema just in terms of ritual, so I don't give a dang that specific Thelemic rituals would be verboten. I care, more broadly, that you would accept that scale of outside restriction on something that seems to matter to you a great deal.
"Is there some way I can reconcile Islam and Thelema into one?"
Easily. Not a problem. None at all.
That is, no problem for me, no problem for you. But, from what you've said, there would definitely be a problem for the woman you want to marry.
"I mean, if you were in my shoes and really head over heels for someone, but a Thelemite yourself (which I'm sure you are if you're reading this), would you even begin to consider the idea of conversion to Islam?"
Under those circumstances: Yes, I would definitely consider it. But it would be in the context of openly reserving to myself any and all rights to continue, as a Muslim, exploring spirituality (and my own nature) however I was drawn to do so. It would be a commitment to the deepest aspects of the religion of Surrender, while not ultimately agreeing to be well-behaved on its more superficial aspects.
And I would only consider this if I could make it a real conversion, a real commitment. It would be a major spiritual undertaking to bring my inner life into compatible alignment with the soul-language of someone I loved, for the purpose of having richer, more exploring, more deeply self-disclosing communication - not for the purpose of deception.
"But she said my Thelemic rituals would be disallowed if I were to convert."
Disallowed by her? See, that's the warning sign. That she would consider that she has the right or power to DISALLOW such explorations is the warning sign.
PS - I also would never want someone I deeply loved to buy a car she hadn't driven around the blocks a few times - even if the "car" was me. But I do understand that this is a personal decision. I just think that it's a personal decision that historically has led to much heartache (or, at least, to much infidelity).
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I agree with everything Jim just said.
A lot for you to consider, I think.
A lot coming in at once, I'm sure.No matter your decision, I trust your Angel's guidance.
Will you ask for it? Have you already? How does your Angel feel about all this?
Enter your Heart and ask for a sign.
Is the love for this woman more important than the love for your Angel?
Your Heart will know, more than any of us will. -
give up the Law of Liberty in exchange for the Islamic dogma and the suppression of individual will? No thanks. But of course, 'to each their own'. I would not shackle myself thusly for a woman.
Curious though, what would happen if you ever got 'found out' for being a closet Thelemite. I'd say... no good can come of this.
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Once upon a time, I married a woman who is a Christian. Even though I had told her before we married that I was not a Christian, after we married I decided that for her sake, I could be an "esoteric Christian". I would go to church with her and go through all the rigamarole, but find a mystical significance. I would worship using the symbols and forms of Christianity, but interpret them as a mystic or gnostic.
Boy was that ever a mistake!
We have been divorced for years now, largely for other reasons. But I learned very clearly that you can't tame the egregore or accumulated karma of a major world religion and keep it on a leash. It won't do tricks for you like a dog. (Neither will a dog, but that's another story.) "Motion about a point is iniquity."
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@gmugmble said
"Once upon a time, I married a woman who is a Christian. Even though I had told her before we married that I was not a Christian, after we married I decided that for her sake, I could be an "esoteric Christian". I would go to church with her and go through all the rigamarole, but find a mystical significance. I would worship using the symbols and forms of Christianity, but interpret them as a mystic or gnostic.
Boy was that ever a mistake!
We have been divorced for years now, largely for other reasons. But I learned very clearly that you can't tame the egregore or accumulated karma of a major world religion and keep it on a leash. It won't do tricks for you like a dog. (Neither will a dog, but that's another story.) "Motion about a point is iniquity.""
Tell me about it, that's a great way to make yourself crazy, I did this for nearly four years, it was a hell of an experience, not one I care to repeat, but sometimes you need to see these things for yourself
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I think it is time for you to surrender... to your Self.
Instead of looking to loose your Self in some-thing Else.
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Jim has said it pretty well. I've studied Islam a fair amount -- considered it myself a number of years ago while I was in the spiritual wilderness -- but it's nice to come back to where I belong.
Let me just say a few things:@Jim Eshelman said
"There are so many alarm bells going off in response to the above paragraph that I barely know where to begin."
This.
"Until you've met, spent time together, explored the sexual aspects of your relationship,"
(Everything else I say here assumes she's pretty serious and devout in her faith.)
... something which Sunni Islam very, very strongly frowns on, although Shi'ism has temporary marriage contracts. However, before she could marry a man, he would have to be a Muslim. A Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man, because the man of the couple is "in charge" in religious matters, and a non-Muslim husband would lead a Muslim woman astray; so even before a Shi'a temporary ("mut'ah") marriage, you would have to convert to Islam.
And Islam has that lovely property that (again, reading it strictly), once you convert to it, if you apostasize, the punishment is supposed to be death. While that may not be enforceable where you live, it's something to think about.
"Since you asked for advice, I'll give it: Don't found a marriage on any sort of deception."
This. My first (and so far only) marriage was founded on *self-*deception, and that was more than bad enough.
"Disallowed by her? See, that's the warning sign. That she would consider that she has the right or power to DISALLOW such explorations is the warning sign."
Especially given, as I said above, that the man is "in charge". That implies she doesn't feel you'd really be a Muslim, on some level. (The well-known rule in orthodox mosques of both sects that a woman may not lead prayers is closely linked with the notion that in the marriage, the woman takes her religious cues from the man.)
I have much sympathy for head-over-heels love, but I'd be lying if all the alerts in my head weren't yelling "Run. Away. Now."
Best,
--Shawn -
@gmugmble said
"Once upon a time, I married a woman who is a Christian ... Boy was that ever a mistake!"
You too, eh? My ex and I met through mutual friends who were Thelemites, and she was in fact studying it ... then after we'd been together a while, she decided to fully re-embrace ultra-conservative Baptism.
Bad stuff.
The good news is I've almost replaced all my occult books that she sold ...
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@gmugmble said
"We have been divorced for years now, largely for other reasons. But I learned very clearly that you can't tame the egregore or accumulated karma of a major world religion and keep it on a leash. It won't do tricks for you like a dog. (Neither will a dog, but that's another story.) "Motion about a point is iniquity." "
It would appear to me as if you were dealing with the aggregate of peoples interpretation or associations of the symbols, rather than the symbols themselves.
I could be wrong, but I received interesting results working with them.
Reflecting on it, in this moment, I kind of see it as the Moon to the Sun of Light & Life that is Thelema (to me).Dogs love doing tricks for You
They know that by making you happy, you will make them happy : give them a treat!Woof! Woof!
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Sure, but there's a big difference between finding private value in a set of symbols, and trying to do that while plugged into a community (hive-mind) that has built up their own meaning for those symbols.
i.e., it's a lot harder to work with an esoteric Christ symbol if you have to attend a fundamentalist Baptist church weekly, with a fundamentalist Baptist spouse. A lot of your energy will have to be spent actively resisting the group energy. The dog is much bigger.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"i.e., it's a lot harder to work with an esoteric Christ symbol if you have to attend a fundamentalist Baptist church weekly, with a fundamentalist Baptist spouse. A lot of your energy will have to be spent actively resisting the group energy. The dog is much bigger."
I feel the error is in actively resisting.
Continuing with the dog analogy...
If you are tense and afraid, a dog will pick up on that... react accordingly.
The same is true if you are relaxed and open.If you spend all your energy resisting the image formulated by the group mind you will lack the energy to cut through to its source.
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There is much more to the Universe than just the Moon.
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@Uni_Verse said
"
I feel the error is in actively resisting.
Continuing with the dog analogy...
If you are tense and afraid, a dog will pick up on that... react accordingly.
The same is true if you are relaxed and open.If you spend all your energy resisting the image formulated by the group mind you will lack the energy to cut through to its source."
All the more reason to be careful about conversion.
So what happens if you don't resist? Maybe the group is plugged into a source that will be helpful for you, and maybe it isn't.
My point was that you can't just plug yourself into any religious group and expect to be able to get good results. I'm not saying it can't be done in any religion, just that it's not especially likely in more fundamentalist groups.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"All the more reason to be careful about conversion."
I entirely agree about being careful with conversion.
I am not really commenting on that (just to be clear).@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So what happens if you don't resist? Maybe the group is plugged into a source that will be helpful for you, and maybe it isn't."
Nothing. I am speaking of a passive action, offering no resistance. This should not be mistaken with the idea of surrendering. Which is arguably an active action, but that is to go off on a tangent.
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"
My point was that you can't just plug yourself into any religious group and expect to be able to get good results. I'm not saying it can't be done in any religion, just that it's not especially likely in more fundamentalist groups.
"Was going to say something here, but getting cut short. Costume change!
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Has nobody noticed that the original poster has stopped replying, or maybe you were all too busy soapboxing?
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Soap box?
We are merely sharing ideas, thoughts, experiences...
In the course of a discussion.
I am enjoying myself, I hope others are as well,
So I continue.