New in magick
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@Frater Potater said
"This is generally good advice. Worst case scenario is that you actually start believing in this demon stuff, and wind up suffering from delusions of grandeur. "
I surmise much more harm can be done than that.
What effect, in turn, that will have on the people around him is another matter.If the person is going to possibly ruin their life by messing with something beyond their understanding there is no need to assist them.
@Frater Potater said
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At the very least you might get unsatisfactory results and decide that magic is just a load of bull!
"I am not a man to play with dice.
@Frater Potater said
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Jim has often said that it does not really matter or not whether you think of the demons as separate entities, or psychological projections. I'm personally still trying to figure out what this means.Before working with the goeita you might want to read book 4.
"At the very least a person should have some practical knowledge of magick before considering working with the Goetia.
The notion of reading and studying Liber ABA prior to such experimentation can not be stressed enough.
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@Uni_Verse said
"
I surmise much more harm can be done than that.
What effect, in turn, that will have on the people around him is another matter.If the person is going to possibly ruin their life by messing with something beyond their understanding there is no need to assist them. "
I agree, I feel concern about a beginner who wants to jump into the heavy stuff right off, without doing any of the preparatory work. Very immature.
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@AliceNui said
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@Uni_Verse said
"
I surmise much more harm can be done than that.
What effect, in turn, that will have on the people around him is another matter.If the person is going to possibly ruin their life by messing with something beyond their understanding there is no need to assist them. "
I agree, I feel concern about a beginner who wants to jump into the heavy stuff right off, without doing any of the preparatory work. Very immature.
"Tis true, dear Alice. But this could be a case of someone who got into "Satanism", then googled around for demonology -- then he finds our group to be the kind of people with much knowledge about such things, but we show that the higher, organized, positive knowledge and thought patterns are what make us fluent in such matters.
I doubt if he does not meditate, get to know his true self, start with basic ritual, that he would get anywhere with the Goetia at all. However, you never know when the spirits spy a nice, tender, virgin human to open the netherworld up to devour.
Count me in!Just kidding, but seriously, beginners and the Goetia just don't go well with the flow of the Universe, especially this Aeon where you are expected to attune yourself to the higher, and any sort of "evil" or "qlippothic" thoughts, tendencies, or behaviors evolve themselves into their "non-evil" form as you go forward, ever onward, leaving such things behind, with Ra Hoor Khuit at your arms!
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@Frater Potater said
"Jim has often said that it does not really matter or not whether you think of the demons as separate entities, or psychological projections. I'm personally still trying to figure out what this means."
Primarily, it means that theory doesn't matter. You do certain things, and you get certain results: record what you did, and what results you got. One could argue forever about what the things perceived really are and all the rest. This doesn't affect the result, except that presuming one or the other could blur and distort your process along the way (especially since you have to go into and finely manipulate certain areas of Yetzirah in order to do either). Indifference to the issue gets you more out of your own way.
That's the entry-level thinking on this point. One much deeper level involves the question of what we mean by "different beings."
And, mostly: It just doesn't matter.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Primarily, it means that theory doesn't matter. You do certain things, and you get certain results: record what you did, and what results you got. One could argue forever about what the things perceived really are and all the rest. This doesn't affect the result, except that presuming one or the other could blur and distort your process along the way (especially since you have to go into and finely manipulate certain areas of Yetzirah in order to do either). Indifference to the issue gets you more out of your own way."
I just felt like drawing a parallel to this statement, extending it to all of science.
Let us take Chemistry as an example.
Add a proton: BOOM! New Element!
Tell them what he has one!For, what really is an atom?
A flavorful quark!
Yes, that is a possible answer
Alas! At the end of the day
It is a set of instructions that say:
"You do certain things, you get certain results" -
@Frater Potater said
"Maybe it's just a phase i'm going through, but i'm leaning more towards the view that the angel is not a separate being. In fact, I prefer the term higher self. Mostly because it doesn't seem to come a long with the same psychological booby trap."
We all go through swings in this. In my case, the Angel represented in a distinctly (usually seemingly opposite) way at every grade en route to Tiphereth. It's just part of the process, and, in fact, is a mapping of ourselves in that relationship.
"I don't see the tree of life as happening in different stages."
You are correct in the sense that the universe is continuous. But it's a misleading point of view for most purposes because it neglects that WE traverse it (meaning, open to it) progressively, sequentially. We (as we routinely experience ourselves) are a particular level of awareness using particular organs to connect outside of that, and there is absolutely discontinuity between different levels as viewed within the human matrix. (The nature of Yetzirah is severing, separating, distinguishing, dividing: it's the sword.)
"The way my mind works, I find all this talk of angels and spirits distasteful."
I find excessively hot weather distasteful. Get used to it. You'll be encountering them (and probably seeking them out and affirmatively working with them) more (not less) as time goes by.
The biggest mistake I've ever seen magicians make in the whole course of their work has been some variation of trying to figure out how things work and what things really are. Offhand, I can't think of an exception. It is useful to assume (for the sake of a particular task) some particular definition of a thing, and it remains useful and undistorting as long as you remain ultimately agnostic about it - that is, as long as you ultimately know that you "just made it up" for the sake of what you were doing at the momet.
But taking these things seriously can derail you.
"I would like to be getting to the bottom of these things though. Or at least trying to avoid substituting one religious dogma for another. Thats the whole reason I like thelema in the first place... seeking to become liberated from such an illusion."
As long as you have a body, and certainly as long as you have something that passes for a personality, you wil have illusion. In fact, you will continue using illusion as the essential functional parameter of your psyche and life. (Maya isn't illusion as such - it's the substance out of which particular illusions are formed.)
Rather than "becoming liberated from... illusion," I suggest a much more valuable practice (at the heart of magick, in fact): the ability to assume one illusion or another at will, and to move through them as they are useful.
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By all means, Potater, I would not separate the Angel, (Diamond/Light Body), from the lower self which aspires unto that higher body.
If you are stating that you believe "not separating anything", including people OR Goetic demons, and your Angel being "separate" from you, are two completely different things, I would agree completely.
Your Angel shares the same "soul" as you do, if you believe in the concept of a soul. From the same Star in the vast body of Nuit. Other people in the world, including Goetic demons, are attached to different souls of their own. However, as Jim elloquently points out, one should look at everything as an aspect of yourself, for that is the only way to undo the separation of the original "hurt", ("I am divided for Love's sake,") AND it's the only way to bend things to your True Will, (not false "want") if they do not flow with Creation appropriately.
It's not a selfish belief, since you yourself are guiding these other beings, much more asleep than yourself, to recognize messages from their higher selves by allowing them to "bend" to your will in Nature. This is the case of most humans. Goetic demons probably know much, much more about the essence of True Will than most humans do, and probably practice it in a huge way. Their only downside is being "stuck" in a certain archetypal flow-set which makes them subject to the call of knowledgable humans who wish to use them for any reason.
On a side note: has anyone ever seen that self-portrait of Crowley summoning Paimon. It looks like Paimon has some other horrible dark force flowing through him, blatantly in the form of "Hebrew" cheapness and madness, (Fire, in Hell, corresponds to the Hebrew Hell, vis 777,) and seems as if he is almost controlled by something else. Forked tongue and all.
(I am heavily Jewish, as well as Cherokee and Scot, so I have no problem stating these things.
In fact, I look at these, and most any other negative qualities people stigamatize to Judaism as the most abhorrent, non-Jewish qualities that society, over thousands of years, have come to expect from a race they couldn't push around enough. Now that said, I totally agree with Crowley's remarks about Hebrews being excellent people with qualitiy artists, poets, painters, scholars, and that because of how they had to survive, being pushed around, had to develop these cheap, evil qualities. )For one thing, Paimon has the downward pointing triangle of Water, where there should be Fire. Crowley himself, holding the feather of Ma'at to Paimon, has the correct ascending triangle of Fire which should be on Paimon, (and usually is in Goetic drawings.)
Very strange I must say.I wonder if he tried to perform a cleansing ritual after the "weighing of the soul/heart with the Feather", to bring Paimon back to his usual form. 'Cause that is some un-controllable, outside-the-box-of-regular-Goetic-summonig, looking sh*t.
I suppose if the man was able to make an entire book store's inventory disappear, he would have some success in the previous mentioned practice.
I mean, even Paimon's dromedary is like
"What the HELL is going on? We were all comfortable in Hell, enjoying the view of the Fire under the infinite sky of Magick, when some dark force overtook us, right in the path of when young Perdurabo was summoning us. This seems like a challenge I do not wish to wait to undertake or wait to ask for help in." -
@Jim Eshelman said
"The biggest mistake I've ever seen magicians make in the whole course of their work has been some variation of trying to figure out how things work and what things really are. Offhand, I can't think of an exception. It is useful to assume (for the sake of a particular task) some particular definition of a thing, and it remains useful and undistorting as long as you remain ultimately agnostic about it - that is, as long as you ultimately know that you "just made it up" for the sake of what you were doing at the momet."
So very true. And momentum picks up hugely the moment you stop making this mistake; when you figure out that there's a level of consciousness that embraces what could be termed the "wisdom of insecurity", and you can just experience a kind of understanding that is outside of actually being able to quantify or explain in the strictly rational sense.
93!
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I would say theoretically speaking it is better to think of the HGA as something out side of your Self, which is where the differentiation with the Higher Self comes in.
Part of it has to do with the differences between Eastern and Western systems...
In the East you raise your Self up Higher,
In the West you draw the Higher down to your Self;
In Thelema, there is a synthesis,
As one rises up as a Serpent, the HGA descends as a Dove ;
Upon there meeting comes equilibration. -
advice i would give to a newcomer:
put practising goetia (and evocation in general) out of your mind, along with the qliphoth, enochian, and sex magick, for now.
get into regular practice of yoga and meditation. once you have some experience with that (i.e. daily for at the very least a year), you can start looking at the material in liber o.
be prepared to read a lot, expect to have a few different books open in front of you, cross-referencing them.recommended reading:
aleister crowley: magick without tears (a good starting pointing but bear in mind it is basically a "f.a.q." for non-initiate beginners / the curious), magick (book 4 liber aba), book of the law + commentaries, liber lxv + commentary, liber vii + commentary, the book of thoth
james eshelman: 776 1/2, liber t, visions and voices (while the subject of this volume is the record of crowley's experiences with the advanced enochian system, i'm including it as an introductory text as it's introduction contains the clearest and most concise explanation of the qabalistic model that i have read so far)
isreal regardie: the golden dawn (llewellyn edition), how to make and use talismans
ophiel: the art and practice of astral projectiondon't do magical activity that you don't understand (don't dabble - not to say that is dangerous [that only makes things appealing in an adolescent way], but it's pointless)
a working knowledge of the qabalah is essential (this, in my opinion, is the true worth of the tarot, as a collection of talismans to impart qabalistic knowledge - the use of the tarot for divination is totally secondary to this, in my view).
there is a right way to do things, and wrong ways to do them (personal beliefs can be subjective and can be changed, but i don't buy the chaos magick logic of total relativism, especially when it comes to ritual - one needs to know how something actually works before changing it / working outside it. that said, don't go too crazy the other way, a finger can be a perfect wand. if all the physical paraphenalia helps, that's great, but it's not something to get caught up on. magick should not be a totally subjective playing with belief and confirmation bias but neither should it be considered a museum piece - it is a living system).
keep a magical diary / journal.once all this in place, you can start ritual work, beginning with the lesser ritual of the pentagram, and then moving on to the middle pillar and lesser hexagram rituals. start with general banishings first, daily use for at least a year, before moving on to general invocations. leave specific invocations (of elemental or planetary energies) until you have completely mastered and have used them regularly for a significant period of time. liber resh is also very much recommended for regular use for a significant time also.
this might all seem way too slow for you, too lengthy, and too much hard work. it can't really be any other way. there's a lot to be learned, more precisely it is a continuous and living learning. without experience in yoga and meditation, without a working knowledge of the qabalah, without proper knowledge of what you are doing and why you are doing it (and a desire to know both), and without regular, committed and paced practice, hermetic and thelemic magick simply isn't possible. it's called the science and the art. think of science in the sense of a living system of every increasing knowledge through meticulous activity and examination. think of art in the sense of playing a musical instrument and composing a piece of music, it involves practice, and awareness of the principles that govern the system, and then self expression.
magick is best considered as a system of spiritual self-development / self-improvement (to use that rather new-agey term).
newcomers often seem to be fascinated with something like the goetia, i believe this is for a couple of reasons.
one is that it is "dark" and concerned with so-called "demons" (in recent years there is a similar fascination with working with qliphoth, thanks in part to kenneth grant [typhonians of course will disagree with me, but imho the healthiest approach one can take to grant's works is to consider them as occult fiction, possibly entertaining and thought provoking but don't take their contents as fact]), the appeal of the scary. a better approach is to consider these areas of magical activity as unhygienic, like taking a swim in sewage.
the other is the desire to use magick for the fulfilment of mundane wishes, e.g. to get money, to get laid, or to put a curse on someone. there are much easier ways to achieve these things than using solomonic magick, and if these are the goals, the energy is being misdirected. going back to the idea of magick as spiritual self-improvement, as one becomes more congruent and balanced in general, aspects of one's life - be they to do with financial affairs or relationships with others - will fall into place also. for one thing, the increased clarity of the mind, and increased control over one's own thoughts and behaviours, will be of enormous benefit to one's overall wellbeing. -
Subjects of study and practice to be given the highest priority by beginners:
Goetia
Q'lippoth
Enochian
Sex Magick
Crossing the Abyss
Goetic Enochian Sex Magick (as a Q'lippah's Sex Slave)
for the purpose of Crossing the Abyss
All beginers who fail to undertake at least one of these areas of study and practice, and who insist, instead, on persisting with devotion and conscientiousness in patient, open-minded foundation practices (such as those in Liber E and Liber O) will be almost certainly cursed with continued life, mental and emotional health, and success in the Great Work. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"Goetic Enochian Sex Magick (as a Q'lippah's Sex Slave)
for the purpose of Crossing the Abyss"Woo! That last one sounds super sexy... sign me up!
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@Uni_Verse said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Goetic Enochian Sex Magick (as a Q'lippah's Sex Slave)
for the purpose of Crossing the Abyss"Woo! That last one sounds super sexy... sign me up!
"Obviously. I mean, who the hell would want to cross the abyss without being the sex slave of a Goetic demon? That's the entire purpose, right?
A serious note though:
When I began Magic, I was abusing sacraments of the Earth that had been bastardized by humans, specifically opiates. Being very young and stupid, I performed various Magic, starting with inverted pentagrams, upside-down bible pages with spells written in blood, and other such false "new-age" "Satanic" BS.
I ended up combining very pure psychedelics with these practices and nearly, (for sure), lost my mind in the process. This "Satanic" interest in the occult, I am sure, is what f|_|cks up beginners and makes them either a) give up Magic, (not good), or b) forces them to undertake clean, organized, HGA-related Magick that brings them back to sanity, with added power over their lives and world.
In jail, I read "diary of a drug fiend", and was totally convinced Aleister Crowley had the answers I was seeking. As soon as I got out, I started Equinox practices, stopped using heroin off of the "street", and totally regained my dignity, morals, sanity, and composure.
Very interesting side-note: Right after I cleaned up from the muckiness, I was introduced to all-nature, completely legal to obtain plants that "instructed me" in how to obtain their pure forms without buying bastardized versions of them on the street. This includes the poppy and coca leaf, two of the drugs, (H and C) I was using before that were ruining my life. As soon as I was able to procure the pure compounds from the plants, I was able to use them without abuse, mainly due to meditation, proper magic including banishing undesirable thought-patterns with pentagram and hexagram rituals.
It is actually very easy to purify alkaloids from plants, including aforementioned, plus cancer-curing psychedelics like DMT from grass and various root-bark. I ended up "removing" a 4-year old lump on my chin, (that I KNEW came from smoking marlboro and camels, quitting smoking as soon as I started real Magick,) with the sacrament of DMT.
(Very important information: I live in an area where I can order any of these plants, but it is completely legal for me to purify and use said alkaloids. I do not recommend doing the same at ALL, unless you are completely one with yourself, and unless they are completely legal where you live, and can use something a few times and leave it alone for a month.)
Bottom line: unorganized participation in various forms of Magic can completely wreck your psyche, physicality, social status, and entire life. It is just as bad as abusing drugs.
Bottom bottom line: as long as one does EVERYTHING by the eight and ninety rules of art, always unto our lady Nuit of the stars, with love and True Will, one can enjoy any of the pleasures of Her and our Divine Creation, including food, sex, sacraments (the drugs were indeed revealed,) and living a life completely free of bondage.
Again: I recommend against using anything illegal, or hurtful to the mind, body our soul.
New to Magic? Start with the Equinox I, issues 1 and 2. Issue 1 has all the needed information about meditation, breathing, control of thought, and the pharmecutical basics of hashish, (cannabis.)
Issue 2 has the only known beginning of proper Magical procedure that will align you with your higher, light body -- instead of a Demon you have no idea the origins of.
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@ThelemicMage said
"Obviously. I mean, who the hell would want to cross the abyss without being the sex slave of a Goetic demon? That's the entire purpose, right?"
Psh, I do not even care about the whole Abyss thing
It just sounds damn kinky and right up my ally!On a somewhat more serious note...
Anything can be used as a tool, as long as one ever recalls it is but a tool.
Opiates, in the right hands, can be a useful one.
Which comes with it inherent danger.
For in does not open up, it closes down.
Cutting away some impressions on the consciousness, freeing it to place more focus on other things. -
@Uni_Verse said
"On a somewhat more serious note...
Anything can be used as a tool, as long as one ever recalls it is but a tool.
Opiates, in the right hands, can be a useful one.
Which comes with it inherent danger.
For in does not open up, it closes down.
Cutting away some impressions on the consciousness, freeing it to place more focus on other things."But you refer only to the active use when a dose is in the bloodstream..
When one has undertaken the possible folly of being even slightly addicted to them, cutting the dose and even coming off of them is completely opposite: it opens everything up. In other words, your brain has learned to use more of itself, in a state of constant comfortableness. When that comfortableness is removed, the entire brain pathways and system of such is revealed to be open.
So open it is almost identical with a psychedelic experience. We must learn to look at the entire picture of this. Junkies do not. Paraphrasing Crowley:
"The addict knows what he wants, and will do it, and by almost any means necessary, attain it."If we are truly men and women of science, we should enjoy the sickness, openness-of mind and emotion, and enjoy a walk into nature with such active consciousness of such things.
As in the book "The Psychedelic Experience", an Englished version of the Tibetan Book of the Dead,
"We should recognize sickness as consciousness moving around in the body, enjoy it fully, and move on." -
Rationalizing is when your Ruach is a slave to your Nephesh. Mostly, the brain is being employed in coming up with all kinds of convoluted reasons why you should keep doing the thing your Nephesh enjoys. How's the Ruach supposed to serve the HGA, if it takes its orders from Nephesh?
Here's a test: if you're not addicted, and you're in control of it, can you put a restriction on it without struggling? For example, can you go for a month without being the first to bring up opiates in an unrelated thread?
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I happen to think that opiates was one of the huge things that made Crowley stronger, more aware, and intuitive for the rest of his life.
I mean, the man put "The opium smoker" in the FIRST edition of the Equinox, for gods' sakes.
"The drugs were indeed revealed" in a commentary from a book that introduces a whole new level of reality for us, doesn't mean "go ahead and watch sesame street, count simple numbers and recite simple letters, and be sure to stay away from anything slightly dangerous or enlightening."
I think it means that we have been here for way too long making simple, much less evolved versions of the neurotransmitters of nature.
I do not happen to even use these sacraments but once or twice a month when I do something very elaborate.
It happens to be the thing that turned me onto Crowley and Magick in the first place. The subject came up in this thread, so it's hardly unrelated.
I defend this by saying the man wanted to dive into the Goetia right off the bat. How can you not recognize guidance for this lost soul??
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Thats Rich Mr. Eshelman, Very Rich..
Love the rainbow touch too
@Jim Eshelman said
"Subjects of study and practice to be given the highest priority by beginners:
Goetia
Q'lippoth
Enochian
Sex Magick
Crossing the Abyss
Goetic Enochian Sex Magick (as a Q'lippah's Sex Slave)
for the purpose of Crossing the Abyss
All beginers who fail to undertake at least one of these areas of study and practice, and who insist, instead, on persisting with devotion and conscientiousness in patient, open-minded foundation practices (such as those in Liber E and Liber O) will be almost certainly cursed with continued life, mental and emotional health, and success in the Great Work." -
@ThelemicMage said
"But you refer only to the active use when a dose is in the bloodstream.."
When it is in the blood stream it first numbs the body, once that it does it begins to cross the blood brain barrier and causes euphoria.
@ThelemicMage said
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When one has undertaken the possible folly of being even slightly addicted to them, cutting the dose and even coming off of them is completely opposite: it opens everything up. In other words, your brain has learned to use more of itself, in a state of constant comfortableness. When that comfortableness is removed, the entire brain pathways and system of such is revealed to be open.
"Cutting the dose certainly opens you up more...
It opens up what was closed while in the blood stream.
There is nothing new there...
By taking the dose you have point fully or inadvertently cut off or narrowed sensations received through/from the body.
Once the effects ends the only thing that opens up is what you have closed.@ThelemicMage said
"
If we are truly men and women of science, we should enjoy the sickness, openness-of mind and emotion, and enjoy a walk into nature with such active consciousness of such things.
"Enjoy the sickness?
I feel there is so much wrong with that statement I do not quite know where to begin... -
"Cutting the dose certainly opens you up more...
It opens up what was closed while in the blood stream.
There is nothing new there...
By taking the dose you have point fully or inadvertently cut off or narrowed sensations received through/from the body.
Once the effects ends the only thing that opens up is what you have closed."Actually, Uni, you are quite mistaken on this one.
When one has finished puberty, one has a specific number of opiate receptors in the body and brain. When one undertakes the use of opiates, MORE opiate receptors grow in the body, especially in the brain, due to the excess amount of opiates your brain and body haven't learned to use yet.
Cutting the dose, in essence, makes you more aware than you ever have been in your life.
As far as "enjoying" the sickness, you should wake up a little bit a realize that pain is illusion anyways. Nature put the poppy here for just that specific reason. It it not to be shrugged off as another downside to life, but as a gift from the gods waiting in a horrible little wrapped gift box.
Just as certain types of pain completely confound, overtake, and make childhood completely unbearable, those exact specific types of pain end up being required to, and enjoyable after one grows up.
"Grow up, human race. I do not care if you vomit, scream, cry for your mommy, or think you are in pain worse than death. I will throw you these things throughout your history to get you up off of this god-damned softness and into the flight of angels." -M. Nature