The Matter and Semantic of Spirits.

Uni_Verse

Frater Potater: My apologies for not being clearer with the information I placed in the brackets.

While my post had originally begun as a reply to your own, it took on a life of its own and became more of an emotional outburst directed at events occurring in my life and Work at the moment.

So I removed my initial quotes of your post and added the comment in brackets.

I did not take offense at your post, nor was it my intent to offend or attack you in anyway.
I hope that clears things up and there are no hard feelings

Simon Iff

@Dara Allarah said

True.

@Dara Allarah said

Please do not shut up!

So you have had experiences with non-human entities like the Annunaki, as physical beings - care to elaborate on your corresponding experiences a bit? I, for one, would be a fascinated listener/reader.

ThelemicMage

I've got this, Dara.

I was a teenager, freshly awakened by Nuit's sacraments and design, celebrating the Sun as it rose instead of dreading the horrible morning as I did when I was truly a child.

While meditating on my way to sleep in my bed, I was hit by a beam of light in my ajna chakra, my pineal gland, so bright and intense that it pulled me somewhere else. The feeling was as if I was going to end up asleep, but was jarred awake by this intense whitish light.

Immediately, I was on a metallic table lying down, surrounded by entities. The light was so bright, in the room I was in, I could not see anything but their hooded cloaks. They stood around me in a circle. The light in the "background" of the room was so bright, I could not actually "see" their faces, only the shadow of the hoods, however with my third eye I could make out they were reptilian, Annunaki.

Not much was communicated, however it all took place on a higher level. No more storytelling for now.

I'm so fu¢king tired of commenting on illusion!

Aliens, animals, humans, spirits, wine, sex, magick.
Fill me the cup of the Poppy circean, for all else is tragick.

oldfriend56

@Dara Allarah said

Human beings? Yes - you're perfectly correct about that."

yes, I imagine I would find close to perfect agreement on this amongst any rational and honest human being. I want my map to be first and foremost honest and rational.

Consciousness? No. You can do tests on consciousness using yeast cultures (for instance)."

well that is (quite) a claim that you have made, and - even assuming this went through a peer review process and it was accepted by modern neuroscientists, there is still a problem with the actual definition of consciousness and intelligence itself - as in how do we know your experiment proves consciousness? It seems that it would depend upon a very firm and clear definition of consciousness that offered repeatable results and past quite a laborious peer review process amongst philosophers worldwide. Quite a task ahead of you no doubt!

oldfriend56

@Uni_Verse said

well that is how I understood the tree, a filing system to place experiences. Does the tree not provide a framework with which to organize the subtle layers of experiences beyond that of everyday waking ones? Is there not Malkuth to Keter?

Where am I mistaken here?

oldfriend56

@Bereshith said

"

this is where the tree breaks down for me, and I wish to see where my error is. You put 'ideas' in 'Hod' - yet to me, that's all the tree is is an idea of how to organize experiences and therefore, ideas are in every serphirot. "ideas about experiences' are still ideas, no?

oldfriend56

@ThelemicMage said

Here, viewing the universe at Malkuth, we are not even Ishim yet, or individual, balanced souls of flame. Our bodies will eventually be tossed, turned, pulled, and pushed through the divine Fire to become these Ishim. "

this is quite interesting and not something I recall hearing before. I'm not sure I understand exactly do you mean that the paths of the tree are the benchmarks between humans becoming angels?

Would you consider me obnoxious to ask you how you mean 'ishim' and how this can be understood?

This is all a very lengthy process that one might grasp if one is having problems feeling out their own personal definition of the Tree in their mind."

that be me

oldfriend56

@Dara Allarah said

My definition is the same as that defined in the Penrose/Hammeroff Orch OR model - obviously."

exactly - and that model of consciousness offers a definition of consciousness that you believe to be true, along with all adherents of the Orch OR model.

I've told you the method. "

yes, somewhat of an intriguing offer, but I'm not set up to run experiments of such type and even if I did, there is still the issue of the actual definition of consciousness. Materialists run claims that experiments they have performed support their definitions of consciousness. Mystics have their own methods which prove their definitions of consciousness. I don't agree with the Orch OR model that consciousness is even in a position to be defined at all.

why so angry?

ThelemicMage

@ldfriend420 said

Would you consider me obnoxious to ask you how you mean 'ishim' and how this can be understood?"

Well, it's as simple as reading a book or books on the levels of consciousness that reside in the Tree. The very first level of truly conscious being is at Malkuth, the Ishim. Please look here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_angelic_hierarchy#Kabbalistic_angelic_hierarchy.

This is the Cabala of the Golden Dawn. This is beginner stuff.

The Ishim are certainly "manlike beings" as well, however in our current state, we cannot climb to Yesod as "manlike beings" without the total element of Fire, which we will eventually evolve into individual, powerful, "souls of flame."

It's kind of like calling a pterodactyl a falcon. You know it's to evolve into a falcon, but hasn't yet.

"I choose you, pterofalcon! Eww, not even finished evolving. What a mess! It's all over the goddamn carpet.. sheye..t."
-Horrible Pokemon quote.

oldfriend56

@ThelemicMage said

I admit it has been quite some time since I read books on the tree of life, more than 12 years for sure but do remember reviewing all of this in detail then, although I admit I only retained what made sense to me and I did have a hard time making pure sense of the tree, so I am grateful for your assistance here.

I'm trying to understand what you mean by man ascending into angels as "souls of flame". I ask because these read like metaphorical descriptions, as often does much of the tree, which I have found this leads to confusion amongst the adherents of the tree as to those on the outside.

I hope this means it will be simple for you to explain this to me!

The Ishim are certainly "manlike beings" as well, however in our current state, we cannot climb to Yesod as "manlike beings" without the total element of Fire, which we will eventually evolve into individual, powerful, "souls of flame.""

yes - this. I would love to see what you mean here.

can u relate it to a personal experience perhaps?

It's kind of like calling a pterodactyl a falcon. You know it's to evolve into a falcon, but hasn't yet."

so by ishim you mean a 'god-man' so to speak? yes? do I follow?

"I choose you, pterofalcon! Eww, not even finished evolving. What a mess! It's all over the goddamn carpet.. sheye..t."
-Horrible Pokemon quote."

my son loves pokemon and I have a harder time wrapping my head around that card game so please let's not confuse ol neophyte me even more

oldfriend56

@Dara Allarah said

it's a time/interest scenario. not sure if i have the interest or the time or what it would even conclude.

Can't get out of your armchair?"

I can't seem to peel my eyes from the computer screen awaiting your each and every reply - does that mean the same thing?

Would you have to ask a nurse to do embarrassing things for you? "

Well this is an interesting turn in the conversation

What?"

your comment above - scandalous!

People who pretend to want to learn but are just lazy attention seekers are little more than parasites to the community in my opinion. If you want any more attention then I'll start preparing the insecticide."

this is the second time you have made the claim against my personage as an 'attention seeker'. Sure, I want these ideas to get some attention that is why I came to a public forum to discuss them. Attention to me = light and you all are helping me bring light to a matter of spirits and this discussion is meaningful to me personally.

Got a problem with that lady?

ThelemicMage

@Old MacDonald 420 said

A mentioning by me was not, the "ascension of man into angels" at Ishim level.

You will recall, on the tree of life, that angels are of the Yetziratic element, Air. This is levels 4-9, or Chesed to Yesod.

Therefore, you will not find a full angel, only aliens and archetypes, before Yesod. Man is not angel, DMT elves are not angel, (though perfect archetypes for Malkuth, the level of infinite life-after-death of mankind. "You shall find a life that is like death, or a death that is infinite.") Ishim isn't even an angel, just a fully evolved basic being, a free soul of fire.

At level 9, Yesod, you have the first actual angelic beings, the Cherubim. They are not flying/shítting babies with diapers on. They are late teenager/adult beings with six wings and Gabriel is in charge of this host of heaven.

Same thing with beings from 4-8, Beni Elohim, Elohim, Malakhim, Seraphim, Chasmalim.

So Ishim are from the Earth portion of the tree, at the bottom at Malkuth. Angels are of Air at four through nine. Thrones, Wheels, and Holy Living Creatures "Chayot Ha Kodesh", make up 3 to and 1, respectively. The element of thrones pertains to Babylon, water, Binah, and even Briah to an extent, seeing as watery elements always correspond to a "cup", "seat/throne", something that bears or holds divinity in some way.

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oldfriend56

@ThelemicMage said

ahh, ok perhaps i misunderstood you, my apologies.

You will recall, on the tree of life, that angels are of the Yetziratic element, Air. This is levels 4-9, or Chesed to Yesod."

noted

Therefore, you will not find a full angel, only aliens and archetypes, before Yesod. Man is not angel, DMT elves are not angel, (though perfect archetypes for Malkuth, the level of infinite life-after-death of mankind. "You shall find a life that is like death, or a death that is infinite.") Ishim isn't even an angel, just a fully evolved basic being, a free soul of fire."

hmm, my understanding is that according to the legends, Ishim are guardian angels and this was how I understood your meaning. Are you saying Ishim are more like secret chiefs or third order intelligences?

At level 9, Yesod, you have the first actual angelic beings, the Cherubim. They are not flying/shítting babies with diapers on. They are late teenager/adult beings with six wings and Gabriel is in charge of this host of heaven. "

noted

Same thing with beings from 4-8, Beni Elohim, Elohim, Malakhim, Seraphim, Chasmalim. "

noted

So Ishim are from the Earth portion of the tree, at the bottom at Malkuth. Angels are of Air at four through nine. Thrones, Wheels, and Holy Living Creatures "Chayot Ha Kodesh", make up 3 to and 1, respectively. The element of thrones pertains to Babylon, water, Binah, and even Briah to an extent, seeing as watery elements always correspond to a "cup", "seat/throne", something that bears or holds divinity in some way.

93 93 93"

so what do aliens, cherubim, angels, ishim, and spirits all share in common? you mention that all of these are an illusion, along with human beings - but clearly human beings are of quite a distinct order of illusion all together would you not agree?

ThelemicMage

I agree...

but "spirits" can mean almost anything. They can mean the illusory spiritual and personified qualities of our own illusion.

Aliens are the same, though they come in many forms just like humans do. For instance, a human being on a planet only a hop skip and a jump away is still considered an "alien."

Cherubim are angels of the Yetziratic level. All actual "angels" are of levels 4-9, only, the Yetziratic portion of the tree.

Ishim are simply fully evolved basic Malkuth-level 10 beings. They are without the wings it takes to ascend to levels 9-4. I'll give you a secret. Cherubim and Seraphim have been identified as six-winged. All the other levels of 4-9 are also six-winged, though it is not mentioned in books to my knowledge. Yetziratic beings, when looked at fully without camoflauge or hiding a dimension of themselves, have six wings.
This pertains specifically to the six numbers of four to nine, in that there are a total of six levels, which is where the design of their "flying" ability comes from.

G'night.

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6 6 6

oldfriend56

@ThelemicMage said

but "spirits" can mean almost anything. They can mean the illusory spiritual and personified qualities of our own illusion. "

Right now, I am sort of lumping all non material phenomenal intelligences as 'spirits' which includes angels, gods, etc etc just to keep it simple. I do this because all of these share something in common, and that is what I am trying to understand. I, like many here, have had experiences of 'spirits' and I, like many here, do not place any objective or subjective validity to these experiences.

Aliens are the same, though they come in many forms just like humans do. For instance, a human being on a planet only a hop skip and a jump away is still considered an "alien." "

here it seems that you are equating form with illusion - is there no independent substance or intelligence to spirits? This is a great philosophical question in my opinion. Are they simply apart of our psyche, our unconsciousness, that we can tap into, making them nothing more than a dynamic of human intelligence - or are they a separate order of sentience all together? I would imagine illusion comes into play either interacting with spirits or my girlfriend, so here I am seeking to make distinctions inside of the illusion. At the end of the day, any illusion is a 'real' illusion and thus references something shared and therefore objective in some sense.

Cherubim are angels of the Yetziratic level. All actual "angels" are of levels 4-9, only, the Yetziratic portion of the tree."

noted - I include this order of beings to share something in common with all non corporeal intelligence

Ishim are simply fully evolved basic Malkuth-level 10 beings. They are without the wings it takes to ascend to levels 9-4. I'll give you a secret. Cherubim and Seraphim have been identified as six-winged. All the other levels of 4-9 are also six-winged, though it is not mentioned in books to my knowledge. Yetziratic beings, when looked at fully without camoflauge or hiding a dimension of themselves, have six wings.
This pertains specifically to the six numbers of four to nine, in that there are a total of six levels, which is where the design of their "flying" ability comes from. "

what do all non corporeal intelligences share in common?

Bereshith

@ldfriend56 said

"

this is where the tree breaks down for me, and I wish to see where my error is. You put 'ideas' in 'Hod' - yet to me, that's all the tree is is an idea of how to organize experiences and therefore, ideas are in every serphirot. "ideas about experiences' are still ideas, no?"

I'm confused. Isn't what you're looking for "an idea of how to organize experiences" of spirits? For a moment, forget the Tree of Life. How would your own map avoid the same problem you see with the Tree?

oldfriend56

@Bereshith said

I'm confused. Isn't what you're looking for "an idea of how to organize experiences" of spirits? For a moment, forget the Tree of Life. How would your own map avoid the same problem you see with the Tree?"

yes. my map makes a few assumptions.

1.)Spirits exist in some sense (as separate non corporeal intelligences with their own varying hierarchy or as dynamics of some unknown component of the human psyche, collective or individual or both)

2.)As spirits exist in some sense, so there must be a variation to their interaction in phenomenology, i.e. what 'forms' do spirits take in our experience?

3.)There is a relationship between ideas and spirits - we commonly share experiences of having ideas - and having ideas could potentially be one dynamic of experience with spirits we all share in common. the qualia of ideas is perhaps shaped by the qualia of spirit.

4.)The distinctions of qualia of spirits, ideas is what I seek to map.

5.)Since I want my map to be as objective as possible, I only wish to make boundaries by shared information and shared experience.

Thanks for helping me define this better, truly. Does this help and do you see why the tree of life is not the map I am looking for? The tree of life maps ideas about spirits and experiences based on cultural artifacts and since those artifacts are cultural, they are not universal and I found the tree to be a source of wide speculation and different interpretations amongst different schools. My map is philosophical.

ThelemicMage

@Old Macdonald the Poppy Farmer said

Well, my fellow seeker into knowledge, it seems as though adepts like Crowley distinguish the body from the spirit in such ways for a reason:
"After attainment, the body is of no more use than the dust of the floor."

The reason is so we can look up instead of thinking down and falling into the dusk of death.

Lest we not remember that EVERY thought we have is played out in our own universe, including our collective universe. So, if you have some fear of death from your auntie dying when you were seven, then that fear will play out sometime later on in life for the original thought was there.

However, the lower bodies evolve with the higher forms as well, which is why they have Earth holding their actual form in the first place, including Cherubim up to Chasmalim, even Thrones, Wheels, and HLCreatures. We should not forget that Earth is grown through, twisted, branched its way up the tree just as water has so exquisitely and miraculously fallen from the top of the tree.

I mean, a tree in itself is mostly Earthen wood when all is said and done. All the elements are patterned out with each other all the way up and down the tree. The sephiroth are projected into the four elements and winds, and the universes even as we see them are not separate.

For Christ's sakes, the God of the element of Air actually came here, rigged up an elaborate Osiris setup two thousand years ago, made everyone think "they" had killed him, when in fact he snuck his adepts, (disciples), into the places of the "soldiers" to do the dirty work. He pretty much did it to himself. They found a "Gospel of Judas" that had been in the area somewhere and has been tested and found to be written right after the time that both Yeshuah and Judas died, though with the stars and the zodiac even appearing in the wrong places, (our man Crowley used Tropical oh so successfully, and so do I,) it just might truly date right on time, and explains how Yeshuah himself asked dear ol' Judas, (one of his closest disciples, no doubt,) to turn him into the Romans.

Now we have Horus and that is a rather intense miracle of another story.

Besz, Apophis, and our dear Lucifer are certainly not forgotten, but celebrated in this elaborate setup.
"Music, Dancing, Silence and Stillness," are our sacraments even at the death of the Sun, by Apophis, Besz, and Satan-Typhon, respectively. Our universes commingle in the same way that the elements do up the tree.

This really is a rather important time to be alive, seeing as how they are to begin dancing again, the door was flung wide open not too long ago, but closed again due to the "sanity" of the mediocre, common (vomit) human being. Lysergic Acid Diethylamide is the sacrament that spans universes past universes, not just one good look like our sacred manna gives us. This was the turning point and mark of the door flying open back then. You cannot stop a flash of lightening, nor even cover your ears to protect you from the vibration of the thunder.

It would be wise of one to learn how to dance.

Try a bellyful of Nuit's sacraments repeatedly until you can walk around on them, then pull out your wand, finger, (or member,) and start dancing with one foot at a time. There's no ruby slippers to click together to get us out of this one.

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oldfriend56

kind of you to take me as a seeker of knowledge. I'm up to my ears in knowledge, this puppy is going for the understanding and thanks for being here with me on this journey. You seem to have quite a rich inner life

ThelemicMage

BTW you currently have 93 posts.

I have been noticing serious Cabalistic manifestations of this number as of late.

You should recognize this and see if it manifests in your life.

In all seriousness, 93, or
"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law; Love is the Law, Love under Will",
should be a constant manifestation in the life of any serious student.

93
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