The Ordeal of the Siren.
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@Archaeus said
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@Ethar said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.@Jim Eshelman said
"Probationers are always given the chance to betray the Order. That's their challenge."
Hmm, that's interesting. What would qualify as betraying the Order? Simply abandoning the work?
Love is the law, love under will."
Could be anything, my own involved people trying to convince me that my Branch of A.'.A.'. was a 'fake', and trying to get me to renounce it in order to join their own Branch which they posited as the 'real' A.'.A.'."
That's interesting, this same kind of "temptation" happened to me in a different way. I started to pursue every kind of lineage looking for the "right one", until I realized that what really matters is my own Work. No lineage would make me attain if I did not do my own Work, not even Crowley himself. I have seen others falling in the same point. Some of them changed to new lineages, others simply left all A.'.A.'. working saying the Order is not active anymore.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"I think that's the whole point, control, do you allow Nephesh to take the driving seat, as tempting as that may be
Or do you continue on the path you have chosen as an act of Will?"I think we both know the answer to that question.
"One amusing excuse I have seen a few times, is that maybe its a persons "Will" to leave of the work to "toy with old pleasures". In which case all you can do is sigh and let people follow there delusions."
Quite funny. If people can give excuses to not do the most important work of their lives (after they made that decision), then they can give excuses about pretty much everything.
"But I agree with you completely about your feeling, I will not fail, and I think that anyone who has taken their oaths sincerely will also feel this."
This!
"Pretty tough system huh? But actually I wouldn't have it any other way."
Neither would I. Actually, it should be tougher. Okay, maybe not.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Alan Willms said
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That's interesting, this same kind of "temptation" happened to me in a different way. I started to pursue every kind of lineage looking for the "right one", until I realized that what really matters is my own Work. No lineage would make me attain if I did not do my own Work, not even Crowley himself. I have seen others falling in the same point. Some of them changed to new lineages, others simply left all A.'.A.'. working saying the Order is not active anymore."
That's exactly what I figured out at the time, and experience has shown it to be the case, whatever 'lineage' you join, its the work you put in, and the sincerity that you bring to the work that really matters, and in the end it is that which will bring you through the ordeal.
Once I stopped worrying and got on with the work I realized this, those who worry about lineage usually seem to be nursing insecurities, these insecurities disappear once you get past a certain point.I have also known people who wait outside the door because they are not sure that the lineage they have contacted is the 'real' A.'.A.'.
As it say's in the equinox, the purpose of ordeals is two-fold; to select adepts, and to screen out the unfit, the spiritual tourists and the egomaniacs.
In short: The A.'.A.'. crowns the work, and one's connection with one's HGA is the only thing that is essential.
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93's.
Helpful talk, guys. Somewhere along the line, reading the works of strong men and women beyond their egos and knowing the terms and mechanisms they used to reach that state from a purely intellectual perspective convinced me that I was just like them, beyond my own ego and a partaker of a fuller reality than that of my peers, even though I had done little more work towards that goal than take drugs, buy books, and feed off of my own overactive intellect. This arose, I think, from a dangerous tendency to associate with my surroundings rather than with my own real state of doing(such escapism was instigated by early abuse, I've come to understand), which was definitely exacerbated by the drugs. Then, I came to see myself as deserving of one of such physical and spiritual beauty as who I suspect to be the Kundrie of my life and declared her the prize awarded to me for supposedly understanding so much, the Scarlet Woman put in my life to help me manifest changes in the world. Plain and simple, I adopted a false crown, and realizing this has been intensely painful; It's letting go of every little childish hope I ever had up to this my 18th year. Takes more strength than I realized, so I commend you all for your steadfastness.
I'll be working towards the same. -
We were not talking about OTO. Most people never get invited beyond MoE anyway, so for most people what you speak of is theoretical.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Yeah, I refrained from posting further here because of this. lol But I think it can apply to any order or initiation journey.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Dara Allarah said
"1) All groups are 'group kundrys'.
That's not theoretical, and it applies equally to everyone who participates in them. They're kissing the group kundry, and they can easily be seduced away from their will by the group."
A very firm point that I certainly feel as having truth. I think the kundry is more so in the association with the group rather than the using of the group's methods, seeing the ability to label oneself a brother or sister of the A.'.A.'. or O.T.O. as an attainment in itself and taking off your armor prematurely is where the pitfall is, I think.
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I was going to post something about my own experience regarding this, but I forsee that Dar is about to pick a fight and a little voice told me to can it, so instead I will simply quote Liber al:
"Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any!"
al III:46 -
The error of this sort of thinking is that it presupposes that existing ONLY as an individual, outside of connection context, is both possible and desirable. IOW it's one more example of being stuck in Hadit-mindedness and forgetting that CCXX has a chapter 1.
We exist BOTH as individuals and as a single, connected organism with a single mind. That's not only "what's so, it's also the ideal. Ra-Hoor-Khuit comes alive when conceived by BOTH parents, not just as his father's son.
So group participation is a matter of picking a PARTICULAR kind of group mind that is committed to and compatible with your goals. The most effective and self-actualized individuals as adults usually come from the most connected, loving families. The Order, rightly conceived, contacted, and executed, provides this type of selective context.
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it does smack of the adage, "once bitten twice shy". I know a couple of ex-Probationers who now think the whole Order is as bad as the lineage they joined, they find it hard to believe that I don't get bullied or coerced, and that actually I find the Order to be a positive and unobtrusive influence in my life.
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I disagree that it's Thelemic. It's, at best, one third of Thelema.
The most characteristic mark of someone with a truly emancipated and matured individuality is the extent to which they see no particular difference between their individuality nd the collective.
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Re: Nazis. Yes, there's a matter of correct selection. And that movement (which was not a contacted order) doesn't fit the description I gave.
Also re: Nazis. By Internet convention, that normally would be the official signal to terminate the thread. Let's, et one slip by, eh wot?
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Well, technically, there's a difference between a group and an order.
"order - a group of people united in a formal way: as (1) : a fraternal society <the Masonic Order> (2) : a community under a religious rule; especially : one requiring members to take solemn vows "
If you're only looking at an order in terms of the personalities within it, then, yeah, there exists the possibility that Nephesh-level stuff can be a distraction from the Will. It's true of any group.
But if the goal-driven rule of the order is set up specifically to make its members aware of such Nephesh-level distractions to the Will and to overcome them (with instruction in this given in its ritual and myths), then all in the order are given instruction in how to recognize and overcome the potential distractions inherent in any group of personalities. The order has done all it can practically do without infringing upon the rights of the indivdual for self-determination. And the individual is free to either succeed or fail regarding the goals of the order in relationship to the group.
In other words, it is possible to separate the ideals of the order from the practical realities of a particular group and to choose the "order" above its particular manifestation in any particular "group," even though the group are all members of the same order.
The warning is that the opportunity will be presented for an individual to betray the order, which is saying something different than the individual will be presented with the opportunity to betray the particular group of personalities. Anybody who makes any progress toward their Will is going to betray some Nepheshes...
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"What do you make of Lon Milo's statement that "the Great Order has always been and will be forever more, an order of ONE. And that one is YOU.)" ?"
Short version: It's God's order, and you are a particular manifestation of God.
Expanded version: The Great Order is a unified Collective Mind of beings with various specific histories, qualities, and functions within that Mind.
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I see no necessary conflict between the descriptions.
You mince words instead of attempting to assimilate them.
Nor, berated, will I submit to any more *requests for opinions *from you. You only discount them for being opinions and berate the individual who takes the time to respond to your own request for opinions.
Seriously, what were you expecting? A presentation of empirically-based evidence on the nature of the Great Order?
"Today, I think I'll ask for opinions that I'll naturally reject as mere opinions."
Once one sees the insanity of your game, it's really quite tedious.
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Well, in my thinking...
God is the popular conception and personification of a level within the One Mind that is above the usual sense of everyday self.
I imagine a spectrum from Being to Individual Mind. It goes something like this (though this is just a rough first attempt at description):
Being
Mind
Unified Abstract Mind
Unified Collective Mind
Collective Mind
Individual MindIn this organization, a human's spiritual progress (understood as "return") moves from Individual Mind to more Collective levels of Mind. Where it is no longer possible for the Collective Mind to become any more unified, it begins to cross beyond the levels of individuality (even understood as a collective) and begins to take on more of the nature of higher, abstract, "heavenly principles" or "rules" of Reality.
Beyond that is pure Being alone, and no remaining quality of individual beingness whatsoever remains.
And the cycle begins again...
Personally, I find the combination of the two attempted descriptions to be inspiring.
""*Simplest *version: It's God's order, and you are a particular manifestation of God." - Bereshith
"Expanded version: The Great Order is a unified Collective Mind of beings with various specific histories, qualities, and functions within that Mind." - Bereshith
"The Great Order has always been and will be forever more, an order of ONE. And that one is YOU." - Lon Milo Duquette
"And this awakening will spark a fire that will burn like a million suns. That fire; that radiance is the light of the Hermit's lamp. And it will be 'all that you are'. It will be the only magical weapon you have or will need. That light will be all that you will be able to give to your brothers and sisters. Your only gift to those in the world who are still to awaken to their 'aloneness'. Your only true contribution to the life you are a part of." - Lon Milo Duquette"
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God, a short hand easy way to write "Our Lord of Silence whom naught but Silence can express."
At least, that is what it means to me.
You put whatever your highest ideal is in the place of the word God, when you see in one of my posts the word God.
It is unfortunate that people fall into the rut of seeing God as the CHRISTIAN God.
I stopped bothering speaking to self-proclaimed Athiests about God as they are rarely able to separate the notion from Christianity.
Really, most Athiests are AChristians or A-Judeo-Christian-Islamists.As for any True Order, their purpose is to serve.
Whether they serve your needs is the real question, me thinks.
A person whose tendency is to be a loner can find great magical power in the uniting of themselves within a group.
Though, I do not think the Work a person does in an Order should ever replace their own.
The two should be intertwined and if one is constantly at odds at the other, some self-reflection may be required.Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren.
EDIT:
Thought to add, that to be a good Teacher one must first be a good Student - the experience of being taught, so one might teach. -
Do what thou wilt shall be whole of the Law.
"God, a short hand easy way to write "Our Lord of Silence whom naught but Silence can express."
At least, that is what it means to me."
It's a good meaning.
"You put whatever your highest ideal is in the place of the word God, when you see in one of my posts the word God.
It is unfortunate that people fall into the rut of seeing God as the CHRISTIAN God.
I stopped bothering speaking to self-proclaimed Athiests about God as they are rarely able to separate the notion from Christianity.
Really, most Athiests are AChristians or A-Judeo-Christian-Islamists."Indeed. Though, I still think it's worth giving them a try, sometimes. Also, they have quite an important role in destroying dogma.
"Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren."
lol
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Uni_Verse said
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Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren.
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Don't they all?
Or in the very least, gone so far off topic that it's now morphed into a completely different thread.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
It's Dara's fault.
Love is the law, love under will.