Tropical vs sidereal
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@Coagvla said
"Those are some very strong views, so, given my respect for your knowledge and experience, I am going to start doing some research. Also, am I to gather from what you're saying that the sidereal zodiac is the only astrological system the Magician need concern himself with?"
I would certainly say that, yes.
On the site I recommended, start with the Essays link at the top, and the first two articles in particular. That will show you the basis for the claims I made.
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Just been looking at those articles Jim and having a look at my sidereal birth chart, and wow. The sidereal idea makes so much sense, but as the article says, it is quite diffficult to employ an entirely new system if one has spent years working on the traditional tropical system. I know this is a big part of why I haven't explored this too deeply and I wanted to get some validation from someone like yourself before opening this can of worms. Even the brief initial readings make it fairly clear that the sidereal is the way to go and it has left me wondering why anyone would bother at all with the Tropical system, and I would very much recommend people that are serious about astrology look into this, (I am also aware that I may be the only person here who hasn't!!!). A brief look at my chart has revealed some deep Mystery and insight waiting to be brought into the light and I am actually very much looking forward to analysing all this. I can see great potential for making my astrological information less arbitrary. Being specific about the locations of planets, signs etc, not only in the birth chart but also on a day to day basis, obviously makes it a much more valuable and 'living approach'.
Also, I have always been a 'Scorpio rising' and this has been something I took a lot from and really identified with. Now, I'm a Cancer rising with Venus in Scorpio. Venus in Scorpio makes a lot of sense to me, however, I am a bit lost as to the correspondences associated with 'Cancer rising'. If anyone has any thoughts on or interperatations of Cancer as the rising sign I would very much like to hear them. Obviously the signifigance of the rising sign needs to be taken in the context of the whole chart, but I'd still love to hear peoples' ideas.
Cheers All.
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93,
I was a bit sceptical that the sun sign I had grown up thinking I was (gemini) was not actually the on I am. It turns out I'm a taurus sun with a virgo moon according to sidereal, and the qualities which go with them fit me perfectly, it was uncanny I was actually amazed it was like someone could predict my personalty. What's more is since I had no idea about it, it can't be a matter of me becoming that personality because that's what I was told I am.
I did some charts for my friends and they were all spot on for them as well. That was proof enough for me that sidereal was the 'true' astrological system. I however still have to analyse further than the sun and moon sign.
93's.
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Cheers brother, that's helpful feedback. The rising sign is very important too and I strongly recommend you look into this and a brilliant place to start thinking about it is by checking out the verse that corresponds to your rising sign in Crowley's Treasure House of Images (CMXIII). Also, so I'm clear about this, can the Sun sign be different from the one He is allocated in tropical astrology.
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@Coagvla said
"The rising sign is very important too and I strongly recommend you look into this and a brilliant place to start thinking about it is by checking out the verse that corresponds to your rising sign in Crowley's Treasure House of Images (CMXIII). "
regarding Treasure House of Images, the intention better corresponds to the Moon sign, I think
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Hey Danica,
That's interesting, there is a note at the start of Treasure House that says that the Probationer shall memorise the chapter of the sign rising at the time of birth. Obviously, these chapters relate to many things and contain a great deal of info, but I think that this note suggests they can be used specifically as they relate to the rising sign. Can you tell me more about your idea that they refer to the Moon Signs?
And an interesting sideline for me:
Scorpio (which I always took to be my rising sign) corresponds to the chapter 'Twelve Denials' while Cancer to the 'Twelve Certidudes' -
@Coagvla said
" there is a note at the start of Treasure House that says that the Probationer shall memorise the chapter of the sign rising at the time of birth. Obviously, these chapters relate to many things and contain a great deal of info, but I think that this note suggests they can be used specifically as they relate to the rising sign.
Can you tell me more about your idea that they refer to the Moon Signs?"
well, for Probationer, this text gives a guiding note to investigate your own identity through learning by heart the chapter corresponding to the rising sign (Ascendant), that is, to identify yourself with images corresponding to a particular Zodiacal sign - thus identifying with a particular set of images, through which in adoration you communicate with God. from Malkuth there is no direct path to Tipharet, but a Treasure House of images opens up us soon as one 'leaves' the immediate Malkuth, that is, gains an awareness of Yesod: the mirror of the Moon 'here' reflects Sun's rays.
but this idea is more personal reflection and intuition than a conclusion from observing others scientifically
maybe the best approach is to read the chapters for Ascending sign (Sidereal, of course), MC sign (it's the cusp of 10th house, or "the midst of heaven", Medium Coeli), Sun & Moon sign, so go with the one that feels most adequate at the moment. -
Thank you Danica, there are some wonderful ideas in that post. I really feel that this whole sidereal gig is gonna be an interesting and insightful trip and it's so helpful to get ideas and read experiences from people in these forums.
This is probably a little off topic, but while we're talking about Treasure House, any thoughts about the beginning and ending being under the sign of the Moon, with the Sun and Star after the signs. Again some obvious symbols but also a lot of subtleties, would like to hear others meditations and insights (particularly yours Danica if you have a mind to).
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@Coagvla said
"
This is probably a little off topic, but while we're talking about Treasure House, any thoughts about the beginning and ending being under the sign of the Moon, with the Sun and Star after the signs. Again some obvious symbols but also a lot of subtleties, would like to hear others meditations and insights (particularly yours Danica if you have a mind to)."I'm not sure what do you mean by "beginning and ending being under the sign of the Moon, with the Sun and Star after the signs" - would you explain?
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@Coagvla said
"Also, I have always been a 'Scorpio rising' and this has been something I took a lot from and really identified with. Now, I'm a Cancer rising with Venus in Scorpio."
There is a calculation error somewhere. The above isn't possible. If you have Tropical Scorpio rising, then you either have Sidereal Libra or Scorpio rising. (Or, you made the mistake before and actually had Tropical Leo rising.)
"I am a bit lost as to the correspondences associated with 'Cancer rising'."
From the character-related statistical studies I've seen, and personal observation, the Ascendant is so weak a factor as barely to deserve any attention. It's the outermost facade - not much more than "the clothes you put on for the occassion." How others see or label you in the most thoughtless, first impression way - at most.
Still, some statistically significant findings arose in the Gauquelin chart / character trait collection, and here is a link that summarizes it: olunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=186&p=1068#p1059
I really wouldn't put much attention on it. Focus on the Sun and Moon signs and, to a lesser extent, Mars.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"the Tropical has no validity of any kind."Does this mean Thelemic dating as normally used is wrong?"
It's not "wrong." It's a way to record information. It's just not astrologically relevant.
I never use luminary sign positions when dating, in any case. I use the actual calendar. "2013 January 27, 11:12 AM" is far more useful to me in a diary entry than "Anno IV{20} Sun 8° AQU,Moon 15° LEO." (Or, for that matter, "Sun 13° CAP, Moon 20° CAN." They're equally useless when you are going back 10 years later to review your diary.)
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You're right about the wrong rising sign Jim I'm pretty sure it's still Scorpio, not sure how I stuffed that up so much And no wonder it was so 'mysterious' haha
And Danica, I mean the symbols next to the first and last 3 chapters of the Treasure House
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"the Tropical has no validity of any kind."Does this mean Thelemic dating as normally used is wrong?"
It's not "wrong." It's a way to record information. It's just not astrologically relevant.
I never use luminary sign positions when dating, in any case. I use the actual calendar. "2013 January 27, 11:12 AM" is far more useful to me in a diary entry than "Anno IV{20} Sun 8° AQU,Moon 15° LEO." (Or, for that matter, "Sun 13° CAP, Moon 20° CAN." They're equally useless when you are going back 10 years later to review your diary.)"
Yeah, that's the kind of wrong I had in mind. Astrological relevance is a good thing.
I too use normal calendar dates in diaries, since the point is to be practical and in most cases sign positions wouldn't tell me much. However, I do use Anno IVxx &c. in specific contexts because, well, I think it's beautiful, and it's nice to acknowledge the Thelemic period when something is published. Oh well.
The fact that a whole system that's being used for so much time is just plain wrong does open up a can of worms. Then again, many worms are edible and help survivors. At least I got to keep my Sun in Aquarius.
Edit: I am m-i-nd-b-l-o-w-n by the accuracy of sidereal astrology. Glad to know about it sooner than later.
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Sidereal was in use for thousands of years before the idea of a Tropical zodiac ever occurred to anyone. Apply your logic to that
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@Patthana Gati said
"You should be glad then that you don't have a constellation shaped like a giant penis in the sky any more."
LOL why? It seems to me that both people who have one of those, and people who want one of those (take your pick) would find that quite charming.
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"You should be glad then that you don't have a constellation shaped like a giant penis in the sky any more.
"That made me chuckle.
I'd rather be a penis than a bull to be fair, I'd find having a giant penis in the sky related to me quite nice, rather than a stick figure doing a high kick which is what taurus looks like.I've always wanted to use this emoticon so I am gonna go ahead and do it
93's.
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@mark0987 said
"I'd rather be a penis than a bull to be fair"
The ancient words for "bull" and "penis" were the same word. The oldest astrological symbol for Taurus was a cock and balls.
Since "bull" means the adult male of many mammalian species, and specifies that it be sexually intact and reproductively capable, the above isn't really a surprise, yeah?
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93,
"The ancient words for "bull" and "penis" were the same word. The oldest astrological symbol for Taurus was a cock and balls.
Since "bull" means the adult male of many mammalian species, and specifies that it be sexually intact and reproductively capable, the above isn't really a surprise, yeah?"
Never knew that......so no matter what I was born a penis regardless of tropical or sidereal. It was just meant to be.
93's.
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Try not to let your head get too swollen over it... That would be folly.
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