Manifestation forms of HGA
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As far as i know, the HGA can manifest in different forms according to the level of the initiate. From malkuth, where it first appears, up to geburah where it unites.
Are there rules on how different the form can appear from malkuth to geburah?
Is it supposed to keep almost the same form, with the only difference being in terms of degree of disclosure?
Also, are there rules concerning the final form it assumes(before union)?
I remember Jim talked about a guy he knew... that guy's HGA assumed the form of a "cat". Is it possible that this guy will have to unite with something which assumes such a form?!
Also, i read on a thelemic blog a guy comparing Muhamad's relationship to Gabriel, with Crowley's one to Aiwass. No problem with Aiwass... but the Gabriel part made me wonder, is it possible for a "normal" adept(not a magus nor a prophet, or at least not yet), or say for zelator or practicus(as they are supposed to have some intuition already on who is their HGA) to have an HGA such as "gabriel", for instance Raphael, or maybe a little less known, like Hagiel or something? Or is it supposed to have unique name and characteristics?
If so, if for instance as a zelator i think my HGA is Hagiel, can it be true, or does it mean necessarly that it just assumed a "hagiel form" because it was the most convinient thing at this point of the path, and that it will surely change form when i reach adepthood?
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@Horus Amin said
"As far as i know, the HGA can manifest in different forms according to the level of the initiate. From malkuth, where it first appears, up to geburah where it unites."
It "unites" (i.e. Knowledge & Conversation) at Tifereth. Geburah is the next stage of Adepthood."Are there rules on how different the form can appear from malkuth to geburah?"
IDK. I think not. There are the mystical experiences of the Sephiroth though. (And perhaps your question should go up to Chesed or go down to Tifereth, if I understand correctly what you're asking.)
"Is it supposed to keep almost the same form, with the only difference being in terms of degree of disclosure?"
What do you mean by "form"? Doesn't sound right.
But I think you got the main part right: what changes is the awareness of the Aspirant. The HGA is ever the same.
"Also, are there rules concerning the final form it assumes(before union)?"
IDK. Probably not.
"Also, i read on a thelemic blog a guy comparing Muhamad's relationship to Gabriel, with Crowley's one to Aiwass. No problem with Aiwass... but the Gabriel part made me wonder, is it possible for a "normal" adept(not a magus nor a prophet, or at least not yet), or say for zelator or practicus(as they are supposed to have some intuition already on who is their HGA) to have an HGA such as "gabriel", for instance Raphael, or maybe a little less known, like Hagiel or something? Or is it supposed to have unique name and characteristics?"
Not necessary to think Mohammed's Gabriel is the "objective" Gabriel, if there's even such a being as an objective Gabriel. Likely it's a tool of manifestation for the HGA, much like something that could happen with an Enochian angel or other entities, which are and at the same time are not "The" HGA.
"If so, if for instance as a zelator i think my HGA is Hagiel, can it be true, or does it mean necessarly that it just assumed a "hagiel form" because it was the most convinient thing at this point of the path, and that it will surely change form when i reach adepthood?"
The second possibility, I'd say. Not sure about the "it will surely change form" part though.
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@Horus Amin said
"I remember Jim talked about a guy he knew... that guy's HGA assumed the form of a "cat"."
Man...you can't make this kind of stuff up....
"Is it possible that this guy will have to unite with something which assumes such a form?!"
If you're implying what I think you're implying, I think your local laws (not to mention PETA) would have something to say about that to discourage you....
"If so, if for instance as a zelator i think my HGA is Hagiel, can it be true, or does it mean necessarly that it just assumed a "hagiel form" because it was the most convinient thing at this point of the path, and that it will surely change form when i reach adepthood?"
You're going to get some real flakey space cadet answers like, "Ohh, the HGA speaks to you through many masks, so listen to your heart...it speaks through the events of your life and arranges them so that you can see what a special little snowflake you are...it manifests in your interest in world mythology and angelology...all the gods are different forms of your HGA...."
...and other unhelpful responses.
Look, your HGA is your True Self. It's not some independent being, and you can give it any name you damn well please, and if you want to imagine it as a form, you can imagine it in any way you please. Doesn't matter. Just don't mix up the names/image with the thing itself.
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It will serve Ye well to take Los with a grain of magical salt, or morphine if you prefer. His is only an opinion so far, and he's only battling what he believes to be opinions.
I'm not saying they aren't opinions, but his air of authority has no ground.
He ignores the last few paragraphs of Chapter XLIII of Magick Without Tears (and other writings of the Crow) as either something wholly misrepresented, misunderstood, or part of some specific (but as yet undisclosed) percentage of errors Crowley made. Also, Crowley gave a lot of "bad advice" according to Los.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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Not necessary to think Mohammed's Gabriel is the "objective" Gabriel, if there's even such a being as an objective Gabriel. Likely it's a tool of manifestation for the HGA, much like something that could happen with an Enochian angel or other entities, which are and at the same time are not "The" HGA."If so, if for instance as a zelator i think my HGA is Hagiel, can it be true, or does it mean necessarly that it just assumed a "hagiel form" because it was the most convinient thing at this point of the path, and that it will surely change form when i reach adepthood?"
The second possibility, I'd say. Not sure about the "it will surely change form" part though."
"Are and at the same time are not". I think it answers well ! Thanks man.
As for Hagiel, if "it is Hagiel and is not Hagiel at the same time", i see no reason it would need to change form(percieved identity). Only degree of disclosure.
ps: mine is not Hagiel, but has similar popularity(maybe a little less, as i didnt know the name before contact)... i've been in contact for more than a year now, and it feels more and more sure. It's mostly the relative popularity of it that has kept me very careful about drawing any conclusion. But it feels more and more sure... I'm very happy about it but at the same time afraid it could be a delusion.
Is there a grade where you're supposed to be almost sure of who it is before tiphareth? At practicus? Good zelator? What is the degree of certitude and experience expected concerning the "vision of adonai" in malkuth?
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@Horus Amin said
"As for Hagiel, if "it is Hagiel and is not Hagiel at the same time", i see no reason it would need to change form(percieved identity). Only degree of disclosure."
I equal "perceived identity" with "degree of disclosure", because the Angel is ever the same.
"Is there a grade where you're supposed to be almost sure of who it is before tiphareth? At practicus? Good zelator? What is the degree of certitude and experience expected concerning the "vision of adonai" in malkuth?"
I'll give it a shot and say Zelator (because it's directly below Tifereth) or equivalent, but it's complicated.
As for the Vision of Adonai, I'm not sure I can say anything helpful. The answer I'd give would most likely be food for delusion (for you and me both).
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@Horus Amin said
"Are there rules on how different the form can appear from malkuth to geburah?"
No. Rules have nothing to do with it. (And I don't agree with your characterization of Geburah.
Bottom line: The Angel can assume any form necessary, within or without you, to serve you in the moment. It changes as needed by you. (FWIW I'll be publishing my 5=6 diary in the near future, Don't know if that has any interest for you.)
"Also, are there rules concerning the final form it assumes(before union)?"
Nope. No rules.
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I was pretty certain that I knew the Name of A.'. during the last few months of 1=10, and yet now I know longer feel happy using that name, like I grew out of it. It was a useful 'manifestation' of the idea, but no more than the image of an image.
These days I'm less concerned with finding out what to call A.'. (So I just call it that, when I call it anything) and more interested in just doing the work.So yes in a nutshell, it changes over time, at least for me it has. I guess the relationship just gets more intimate after the vision and names/forms have become a little irrelevant, whereas action is everything.
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@kasper81 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"[(FWIW I'll be publishing my 5=6 diary in the near future, Don't know if that has any interest for you.)"it depends if it's full of idiosyncratic coded, shorthand words"
I think editing has taken care of all of that
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@kasper81 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"[(FWIW I'll be publishing my 5=6 diary in the near future, Don't know if that has any interest for you.)"it depends if it's full of idiosyncratic coded, shorthand words"
I think editing has taken care of all of that
"Is it going to be about heroine and cocaine addiction and how many days you suffered from diarrhea? If not, there might not be as much interest in it.
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No, sorry, that happened a few years later when a doctor kept me on opiate a couple of months longer than he should have. (Very interesting experience, though: The absence of any psychological addiction made it interesting, though disgusting, to watch what the body was doing.)