Finding my True Will
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@chris S said
"So when you give your opinion that the Temple of Thelema forum is a fruitcake factory that produces fruitcakes (it was superficially funny
).. Is that opinion based on sound evidence or do just prefer/like saying it?"I'm glad you found it funny. My goal is ever to instruct and to delight.
I'd like to answer this question, but I'm not quite sure how directly I can state my honest answer without being booted off the forums and having my entire posting history wiped. To be sure, I don't intend to "attack" anybody personally, but I'm pretty sure that the honest answer will at least be perceived as hostile.
If you're really curious about the answer, ask me on my blog. It might be more fun to just imagine what I'd say, though.
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@Los said
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@chris S said
"So when you give your opinion that the Temple of Thelema forum is a fruitcake factory that produces fruitcakes (it was superficially funny ).. Is that opinion based on sound evidence or do just prefer/like saying it?"I'm glad you found it funny. My goal is ever to instruct and to delight.
I'd like to answer this question, but I'm not quite sure how directly I can state my honest answer without being booted off the forums and having my entire posting history wiped. To be sure, I don't intend to "attack" anybody personally, but I'm pretty sure that the honest answer will at least be perceived as hostile.
If you're really curious about the answer, ask me on my blog. It might be more fun to just imagine what I'd say, though."
Well i dont want to goad you into saying something that would bring about you getting booted off the forum..
I read your blog yes, it concerned providing humour for your readers.
It's just my contention that you havn't entered the forum with your attitude Tabula rasa.. for instance your insistance on using the term Goblins as a generic stand in for sarcasm.. nobody mentioned Goblins, in fact Simon asked you stop using that term as it sounded idiotic.
So sure, i dont feel you want to attack anyone individually, you're just being generally sarcastic.But i'm getting off topic from this thread.
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Food for thought:
Given: Experiences have no explanatory power.
Premise: Experiences have no explanatory power.
Premise: Meditation yields experiences.
Conclusion: Meditation yields experiences, which have no explanatory power.Premise: Experiences have no explanatory power.
Premise: Ritual yields experiences.
Conclusion: Ritual yields experiences, which have no explanatory power.Premise: Meditation yields experiences, which have no explanatory power.
Premise: Ritual yields experiences, which have no explanatory power.
Conclusion: Meditation and ritual both yield experiences, which have no explanatory power.
Given: Gaining knowledge of one's True Will requires experiences.
Premise: Gaining knowledge of one's True Will requires experiences.
Premise: Experiences have no explanatory power.
Conclusion: Gaining knowledge of one's True Will requires experiences, which have no explanatory power.
Given: Knowledge is appropriately pursued through the means required to gain it.
Premise: Knowledge is appropriately pursued through the means required to gain it.
Premise: Gaining knowledge of one's True Will requires experiences, which have no explanatory power.
Conclusion: Gaining knowledge of one's True Will is appropriately pursued through the means of experiences, which have no explanatory power.
Premise: Gaining knowledge of one's True Will is appropriately pursued through the means of experiences, which have no explanatory power.
Premise: Meditation and ritual both yield experiences, which have no explanatory power.
Conclusion: Gaining knowledge of one's True Will is appropriately pursued through the experiences yielded by both meditation and ritual even though these experiences have no explanatory power. -
@Faus said
"@Berashith
That is something that actually sounds like logic.(Just to remember something Simon already said somewhere, there is no such thing as “explanatory power”, only predictive power)"
Well... first of all... a "given" is just a "given" and is only relevant to those who agree with it.
But also, ...even if there is no such thing as "explanatory power," then it's still true that experiences don't have it.
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@Bereshith said
"Well... first of all... a "given" is just a "given" and is only relevant to those who agree with it."
So if I fall down a six metres high wall without braking the landing will only affect me adversely if I agree with that?
You are aware that you are indirectly claiming that there are no objective things, just subjective perspectives, yes?
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@Simon Iff said
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So if I fall down a six metres high wall without braking the landing will only affect me adversely if I agree with that?"Well, if you are on morphine there is a good chance you will not understand it as adverse. But there is the great chance that you will change your mind after the effect goes away.
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@Bereshith said
"Also... I haven't worked through it yet, but.... it seems at some point, one would have to say that knowledge of one's True Will necessarily makes use of projected meaning.
"Good point. Meaning is distinctly a relationship between you and an experience, as is knowledge in general.
The strange effect in this case can be the fact that the TW is (as far as I know) the primal source of meanings that we attribute to stuff around us. -
@Simon Iff said
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@Bereshith said
"Well... first of all... a "given" is just a "given" and is only relevant to those who agree with it."So if I fall down a six metres high wall without braking the landing will only affect me adversely if I agree with that?
You are aware that you are indirectly claiming that there are no objective things, just subjective perspectives, yes?"
I'm speaking within the context of following the logic of a syllogism. The givens are only meaningful for those who agree with them. I'm not attempting to speak to the objectivity of all givens ever given.
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The meaning is its use.. Language doesnt function to a preset pattern, thinking has to to take place within the activity rather than on some intellectual platform suspended outside of life and beyond lived activity.
This where the verificationist types have to be cautious when they condemn religious language as meaningless, have they assumed too quickly what religious language is and does, and how it actually functions in the lives within those activities? -
@Bereshith said
"Food for thought"
Junk food, maybe.
"Meditation yields experiences, which have no explanatory power."
Right. The experience, all by itself, can't tell you what it was.
It's reasoning about the experience, after the fact, that stands a chance of telling you what it was.
If you look at the OP of the "Experience Has No Explanatory Power" thread, you'll see I give an example of Crowley appealing to this same principle, pointing out that the "experiences" of Mohammed and Christ, all by themselves, couldn't have told them that they "really" experienced Gabriel of Jehovah.
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No what I meant by predictive value was, that anything, be it a model or idea about something else, irrelevant if the something else is objective, subjective, astral, religious, scientific in the hard sense, etc. - if it wants to be of value - must be able to make a prediction about its topic on the plane it is on or it is worthless drivel.
Examples:
A loves me. -> Testable prediction: A will behave really nice towards me, at least given time.
B's aura looks weak in the chest department. -> Testable prediction: B might have an illness or psychosomatic problem centered on their chest area, or might soon develop one.
If I let object C (say, a vase) go on a high cliff on earth it will most likely shatter and, for sure, arrive on the foot of the cliff soon afterwards. -> Testable prediction: C will perhaps shatter and surely fall if I let go under mentioned circumstances.
My self D is of a kind that I react really angry when someone does something particularly stupid. -> Testable prediction: I will get angry if someone does something I consider stupid.
These sentences above therefore have predictive value on their level, and can be veri- or falsified.
Other example:
Aliens from Sirius, that have secretly taken over earth, are watching me on this internet forum. -> Testable prediction: None. Untestable as such - useless drivel.
All clear Bereshit & co.? This is what I meant - the predictive value of any idea - or not - is relevant even if you do not agree. And that is very useful when differentiating chaff from wheat in many endeavours - including those which Los thinks don't exist.
Clearer what I meant?
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@Simon Iff said
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@Los said
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@Bereshith said
"Food for thought"Junk food, maybe."
Los ... has someone explained the function of manners to you at any point in your life?
"Indeed.. And it illustrates my point, that its the behaviour of the individual that puts the experience.. that actual activity, into context.
Reasoning after only routinises the experience into an everyday language.
Compartmentalising the activity and removing it from its context after the fact as Los does wont tell you anything.
For instance he's either being rude, or he has no idea that he's being rude. -
@Los said
"Right. The experience, all by itself, can't tell you what it was.
It's reasoning about the experience, after the fact, that stands a chance of telling you what it was.
"Yes, precisely, and the above argument demonstrates that the same is true for both kinds of experiences.
Therefore, since the discernment process is always expected to require* "reasoning about the experience, after the fact," then either both types of experiences may legitimately be used in gaining knowledge of one's True Will, or neither type of experience may legitimately be used.
*No one here argues against this. That's one of your strawmen, along with "goblins."
