Finding my True Will
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@Los said
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The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work)."
actually, the more you go about searching for this answers intellectually, the more you are mentally masturbating, and it will not help you to DO the work. the thing that does help to do the work is - doing the work, not thinking incessantly about doing it 
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@danica said
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@Los said
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The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work)." actually, the more you go about searching for this answers intellectually, the more you are mentally masturbating, and it will not help you to DO the work. the thing that does help to do the work is - doing the work, not thinking incessantly about doing it "While the actual work itself requires the individual to turn off the mind (temporarily) in order to observe the True Will apart from the distorting influences of the mind, one needs to have a very clear grasp on exactly what one is trying to do and how to do it in the first place (along with the criteria for judging success). Otherwise, one won't know what to do, what to look for, and one won't know how to tell that the work has been a success.
What you're suggesting is that not knowing what you're doing is actually beneficial. I can't think of an approach more backwards or counterproductive. While I'm sure this egalitarian approach is very appealing to people who don't know anything about the subject -- since the approach implies that they don't have to learn anything, and it actually puts them on a higher level than people who actually do know something about the subject -- I dispute that it's true.
Imagine if we taught any other subject by discouraging people from learning about how to do it. What if we trained new and upcoming engineers by telling them to stop "mentally masturbating" and just start building bridges already! Enouraging people not to think too hard about their chosen subject of study is just a bad idea, regardless of the subject.
And -- just to be clear -- I'm criticizing ideas, not attacking any individual.
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@Los said
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@danica said
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@Los said
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The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work)." actually, the more you go about searching for this answers intellectually, the more you are mentally masturbating, and it will not help you to DO the work. the thing that does help to do the work is - doing the work, not thinking incessantly about doing it "... the actual work itself requires the individual to turn off the mind (temporarily) in order to observe the True Will apart from the distorting influences of the mind.."
no, not necessarily turn it of, but simply don't allow it to lead.
just being there and observing is fine enough task for the mind in mystical and magickal practices.@Los said
"What you're suggesting is that not knowing what you're doing is actually beneficial. "
I'm not suggesting that. I simply say that there's a difference between knowing and doing, and you can substantially enhance your knowing by engaging in the doing, while by thinking alone you can get only - a thought-result. (it's not a good or bad thing per se, but it's partial regarding the whole of the nature of human being)
@Los said
"And -- just to be clear -- I'm criticizing ideas, not attacking any individual."
yes, yes, I gathered that much -
@Los said
"One needs to have a very clear grasp on exactly what one is trying to do and how to do it in the first place (along with the criteria for judging success). Otherwise, one won't know what to do, what to look for, and one won't know how to tell that the work has been a success.
What you're suggesting is that not knowing what you're doing is actually beneficial. I can't think of an approach more backwards or counterproductive. While I'm sure this egalitarian approach is very appealing to people who don't know anything about the subject -- since the approach implies that they don't have to learn anything, and it actually puts them on a higher level than people who actually do know something about the subject -- I dispute that it's true.
Imagine if we taught any other subject by discouraging people from learning about how to do it. What if we trained new and upcoming engineers by telling them to stop "mentally masturbating" and just start building bridges already! Enouraging people not to think too hard about their chosen subject of study is just a bad idea, regardless of the subject.
And -- just to be clear -- I'm criticizing ideas, not attacking any individual."
The real point is whether you're using your intellect as a tool to engage in more, better experiments with your life; or whether your molding your experiments and analysis to serve your intellect.
If you don't start with an unknown, it's not learning.
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@danica said
" I simply say that there's a difference between knowing and doing, and you can substantially enhance your knowing by engaging in the doing, while by thinking alone you can get only - a thought-result. (it's not a good or bad thing per se, but it's partial regarding the whole of the nature of human being)"
Well, obviously I agree with this. I'm not arguing that one should just think about doing the work and nothing more. The work involves...wait for it...actually working.
But some of those "thought-results," as you put it, are incredibly useful for doing the work. You would agree, I assume, that it can only help one do the work to know what one is trying to do and how to accomplish these goals, right?
The point I'm trying to get at with Bereshith is that I strongly suspect that these rituals do close to nothing to enable a person to discover the True Will. That being the case, getting him to address these questions will bring the issue out into the open: if these rituals actually do work, then he should be able to explain simply and directly why he thinks so, and we can all evaluate his evidence and reasoning process and conclude how correct he is.
However, if these rituals don't actually work...don't you think it would be very useful to know this? And if they don't actually work, then either practitioners won't be able to explain why they think they work, or they will give incredibly vague, half-baked, and flawed reasons for thinking that they work.
Once more, I claim that it is useful to know these things, and in my experience, it's the people who aren't serious about the work who try to dismiss important questions like the ones I'm asking.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
Hello again guys! Glad to see this topic spurs debate!
Yes, another update!
Last night I was reminded of something very interesting:
There is a part of me that goes around during the day - the conscious part that is in connection with the world around me, that goes around and does stuff, thinks and makes decisions etc.There is also another "part of me", that operates on another level.
This is evident in a lot of ways, and last night I went through in my mind lots and lots of things that have happened in my life so far.
It turns out there are loads and heaps of evidence for the existence of this other "part of me".(Btw. "Liber ThIShARB": www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib913.htm
is - as I understand it - Crowleys primary recommendation as a method for dis-covering the Will. It deals with stimulating the memory and looking at ones life in a broader perspective).The point is - I recognize the fact that there are lots and lots of events, twists and turns in the course of my life, that I could never, ever have planned with the part of me that manages day-to-day activities, which is the part that I usually identify as "me". When I look at the course my life has been taking, I can see certain evidence of another "faculty" let's call it - that makes and shapes events in a purposeful and structured way. There is also microcosmic evidence of this "faculty" - for instance in art that I have worked on.
(Now that I think about it, this is probably one reason why the orders tend to include study of divination as a subject in their curriculum !
).Between these two "parts" of me, there is no doubt as to who has the "upper hand" - it is of course the part that is actually shaping and making what is turning out to be my life, not the part that manages day-to-day (or year after year as it were) activities. It is the genius behind the scenes that is actually running the show.
Since I now know this, the sensible thing to do, is to arrange it so that the day-to-day part of me starts to cooperate with the part of me that is actually controlling my existence. Now - there might be some reason why the intentions of this "genius" is not known to "me" consciously .. Perhaps it is not useful for me to know the true intentions of the "genius" .. maybe I would just make a mess out of things if I did know .. This is my intuition anyway - there is some good reason why I do not know ..
What I CAN do, is try and better myself. I can simplify the functions of the personality, work to strengthen my faculties by placing them in alignment with how the world actually works .. In so many different ways, I can strive to make myself attractive to the "genius" as a conscious co-operator in this grand project that is my existence.
(I think - whether or not I am consciously cooperating or not, makes little difference, as the "genius" seems able to manipulate things as it wants anyway .. still I want to be
and I am sure the "genius" really wants me on the team as a conscious co-operator too, as it will undoubtedly make things work smoother and more effectively, pluss it will be another level in life - a joy for both parties involved ) ..The need for this "simplification" and strengthening of the day-to-day part of the personality is what I think spurred my interest in "Sample Ritual #9" from 776 1/2 that I mentioned.
The way I believe that rituals work, btw. is the same way that I have experienced initiation works - they start certain processes in ones life. The trick would be to start the processes that lead you in the right direction.
In addition to entering the process of dropping illusions, "simplifying" the perceptions, strengthening the ego and generally making one self more fit for a conscious co-operator, I think it will not hurt to also try and look deeper into the structure of my life in order to see if I can see some pattern there ..
Although I am still not sure about using "Sample Ritual #9" .. I will probably know in a while what to do
Love is the law, love under will,
Frater Katanoese -
@Los said
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@Bereshith said
"In my experience, such intentional symbolic actions consciously stimulate and precisely focus an internal dialogue that carries on beyond the act of the ritual itself."Ok, and they may well do this, depending on what you mean. If you mean that the ritual summons up certain kinds of thoughts that stay with you during the day and encourage you to think about them, I'd agree that rituals do that. Of course, lots of activities have that result. For example, watching an episode of Breaking Bad also "stimulates" and "focus[es]" an inner dialogue, and it usually stays with the viewer long after the episode is over.
And that brings me to my point: just because something "stimulates" an "inner dialogue" doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the True Will or brings a person any closer to discovering the True Will. So what, precisely, do you think this "inner dialogue" has to do with the True Will and how does it enable you to uncover that Will?
The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work)."
A: Self-aware intention in magic is everything. Ideally, one's intended purpose is explicitly written down beforehand during the preliminary processes leading up to the performance of a particular ritual.
B: Yes, of course other things can stimulate an inner dialogue. However, in magical ritual, one calls upon one's ability to create an experience of the numinous and opens themselves to be altered by that experience. In my opinion, when one genuinely opens oneself to the potential of intentionally acting upon one's inner psychic world, with *ALL *of its ability to create perceptual phenomena during the ritual and to present its interpretations of events after the ritual, one takes an irrevocable step into conversation with aspects of one's own being that are not otherwise easily brought into consciousness. One intentionally steps into an intra-psychic process that cannot be undone; it must run its course.
I don't intend to be offensive, but it is my opinion that many who discredit the power of ritual are actually attempting to protect themselves from being overwhelmed by the power of their own belief to stimulate such phenomena in their minds.
Of course, I could be wrong. There is a concept called "transliminality" which refers to the ease with which information passes back and forth between the conscious and unconscious mind in an individual. Studies show (Thalbourne) that people vary in their degree of transliminality and that this corresponds to the degree in which they are interested in such things as magic, reincarnation, and the interpretation of dreams, etc. Of course, I would also argue that the practice of magic serves to increase transliminality in low-transliminals and to regulate transliminality in high-transliminals.
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@Bereshith said
"A: Self-aware intention in magic is everything. Ideally, one's intended purpose is explicitly written down beforehand during the preliminary processes leading up to the performance of a particular ritual. "
I would disagree that intention is everything. If I pick the "wrong" ritual, I could in fact actually have results that constitute the opposite of what I intended to do. I believe certain symbols have certain meanings and certain associations. If I did not believe that (and this is based on my experiences), I would discard Thelema and dedicate myself to Chaos magick instead.
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@Bereshith said
"Yes, of course other things can stimulate an inner dialogue."
So by "inner dialogue" you did indeed mean thoughts stimulated by the ritual?
"However, in magical ritual, one calls upon one's ability to create an experience of the numinous and opens themselves to be altered by that experience."
One is "altered" by every experience. Joseph Campbell said that reading Finnegans Wake is a consciousness-transforming experience (of course, reading any text is a consciousness-transforming experience). I would say that all experiences of every kind produces alterations...the question is whether certain ritual practices alter one in ways that enable one to discover the True Will.
"In my opinion, when one genuinely opens oneself to the potential of intentionally acting upon one's inner psychic world, with *ALL *of its ability to create perceptual phenomena during the ritual and to present its interpretations of events after the ritual, one takes an irrevocable step into conversation with aspects of one's own being that are not otherwise easily brought into consciousness."
This is typical occultist flowery claptrap. You're not actually saying anything here, other than baldly asserting that ritual practices enable you to experience parts of youself that you don't usually experience. I say (1) I don't think we have much reason to say that that's true, and (2) even assuming that what you've said is true, there's no reason to think that it's got anything to do with bringing you even one jot closer to discovering your True Will. What makes you think that it does?
"Of course, I could be wrong."
You definitely could be. The important question is, what makes you think you're right? All you've done so far is claim that these rituals let you experience parts of yourself that you don't otherwise. And again, even if that's true -- a big "if" -- how do you know you're experiencing the True Will and not, say, random junk in your conscious or unconscious mind that has nothing to do with the True Will?
"There is a concept called "transliminality" which refers to the ease with which information passes back and forth between the conscious and unconscious mind in an individual."
Well, once again, there are both conscious and unconscious obstacles to discovering the True Will. Even if we agree for the sake of argument that you're absolutely right and that these rituals cause "information" to pass from your unconscious mind to your conscious mind (and I use "information" in the broadest possible sense, to include a bunch of largely useless fantasies), you'd still need a reason to think that any of this has got anything at all to do with discovering the True Will.
Once more, I realize that you're liable to brush off my points about having a clear understanding of what you're doing as some kind of trivial formality, but it's anything but. If you're making factual claims -- like the claim that rituals can cause you to discover your True Will -- then you need to support that claim with more than a bunch of speculation that sorta sounds nice and has fancy-sounding names.
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@Katanoese said
"Last night I was reminded of something very interesting:
There is a part of me that goes around during the day - the conscious part that is in connection with the world around me, that goes around and does stuff, thinks and makes decisions etc.There is also another "part of me", that operates on another level.
This is evident in a lot of ways, and last night I went through in my mind lots and lots of things that have happened in my life so far.
It turns out there are loads and heaps of evidence for the existence of this other "part of me"."This sounds like it's in the right ballpark. The real test is to locate ways that your conscious decisions have brought you inner conflict when you've acted on an incorrect idea of who you are. That's the real test: you really have to watch yourself on this one. How does your particular mind specifically distort your impressions and lead you to draw incorrect conclusions about yourself and your environment?
Nobody eles can do this for you, and the only way to do it is to pay attention to yourself in real time situations. That's it, that's the work.
You are not the stories your mind tells you about yourself. If you can locate one -- just one -- instance of your mind doing this, and feel the distance between your True Self and your mind's idea of yourself, you'll know exactly what you're looking for, exactly what it feels like, and you'll be able to replicate the achievement again more easily.
"(Btw. "Liber ThIShARB": www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib913.htm
is - as I understand it - Crowleys primary recommendation as a method for dis-covering the Will. It deals with stimulating the memory and looking at ones life in a broader perspective)."Eh, I've never found that "thinking backwards" -- what a ridiculous idea -- does anything practially to help, and I think self-induced fantasies of "past life memories" are downright distractionary. All that practices like this are going to do is mix you up more with fantasies.
Crowley's best instructions are in yoga, and that's the best place to begin: stilling the mind so that you can experience the world without thoughts. You don't even have to concentrate on one specific mental image. Just shut down your thoughts and sit. Experience the world and yourself without thought/emotions. Meditation is so interesting because shutting off thought isn't just the method of meditation: it's the result. One doesn't meditate to get any particular result: one does it just to do it. In the process of doing it, you familiarize yourself more and more with what the world looks like unmediated by thought. This has the side effect of enabling you to better see through the illusory nature of thought when you re-enter your daily life. Your ability to pay attention during your everyday activities should increase.
"Since I now know this, the sensible thing to do, is to arrange it so that the day-to-day part of me starts to cooperate with the part of me that is actually controlling my existence."
The only thing you have to be aware of is to remain cautious of the possibility of doing this in too conscious a way. If you actively seek out the patterns of your life ("Oh, here's what my True Self wants me to do...I better go do it...."), you're going to get led astray by more mental nonsense.
The work has to be to learn to observe better and then await the True Self to make its patterns known. This is why the invocation of the HGA (it's a metaphor for the True Self, not a real angel) is described as a "passive" experience. You await for it to come and "ravish" you away (if we want to get all flowery). You don't seek it, per se. You clear away the crap from your perceptive faculties, and you wait for it to come.
"Many things I beheld mediate and immediate; but, beholding them no more, I beheld Thee." -- Liber LXV, III:32.
"Now - there might be some reason why the intentions of this "genius" is not known to "me" consciously"
The normal functions of the conscious mind tend to obscure the natural inclinations from an individual.
"The way I believe that rituals work, btw. is the same way that I have experienced initiation works - they start certain processes in ones life."
That's highly questionable. They might be symbolic ways of marking something starting in your life, but I would dispute that they cause processes to start. You cause them to happen, and you do so in your everyday life.
Attainment isn't some state you achieve: it's a skill. You practice it mindfully at every moment of your life.
Best of luck,
Los -
Patrick- I think you may have me there. I don't remember whether it was the word 'Vow' or 'Oath' that AC said.- just what difference is there?
I use the word 'Vow' as I considered it a 'vow' at the time. I was 21 years old at the time. I had just found my first magickal order and I took it very seriously.
I made a 'Vow' to never stop until I united with god head. It was not until, after much tiring effort, I was 31-32 years old when I achieved it. More and more, both at the time and now I look back and see that 'Vow' as a fundamental cornerstone to achieving it.Although there, as I have mentioned, other reasons.
Vows are very binding- it virtually cannot be broken.
Kat reminds me of my first occult work at 19, I too went on the dole.
I recommend it to serious seekers
Q
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@Los said
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One is "altered" by every experience. Joseph Campbell said that reading Finnegans Wake is a consciousness-transforming experience (of course, reading any text is a consciousness-transforming experience). I would say that all experiences of every kind produces alterations...the question is whether certain ritual practices alter one in ways that enable one to discover the True Will. "Well, given that you admit that one is "altered" by every experience, how much more so by specific acts performed with the intention of discovering the True Will?
It's interesting that you quote Joseph Campbell in the same breath as questioning the validity of self-conscious participation in one's own mythos.
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This is typical occultist flowery claptrap. You're not actually saying anything here, other than baldly asserting that ritual practices enable you to experience parts of youself that you don't usually experience. I say (1) I don't think we have much reason to say that that's true, and (2) even assuming that what you've said is true, there's no reason to think that it's got anything to do with bringing you even one jot closer to discovering your True Will. What makes you think that it does? "Well, you have two forms of evidence (if not proofs) available to you:
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The testimony of those who have performed such rituals (like, you know, Crowley,* occultist and founder *of the Thelemic philosophy you espouse, who created an entire systematic path of development based on magic ritual, and whose book you quote that also came to him as the result of magical practice).
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Your own personal participation.
If you require proof of a more concrete nature than that, then please attempt to persuade the scientific community to round up an acceptable number of average people and attempt to gain approval by an ethics committee to have these random people each perform the same magic ritual to test its effects. Note: You may have some problems getting your experiment approved by an ethics committee, as they already understand that such actions could have profound effects on peoples' consciousness.
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You definitely could be. The important question is, what makes you think you're right? All you've done so far is claim that these rituals let you experience parts of yourself that you don't otherwise. And again, even if that's true -- a big "if" -- how do you know you're experiencing the True Will and not, say, random junk in your conscious or unconscious mind that has nothing to do with the True Will? "No, it's not a "big if." It is my testimony of my personal experience to you. I'm telling you with these words you are reading that this has been my experience. You are free to experiment with such things for yourself to see how effective they are for you personally, or not.
Regarding your question of "how do you know...?" You make up your own mind based on how personally clarifying the experience is - how well it helps explain the meaning of your life to yourself - how well it helps you refocus your dispersed energies into one completely satisfying life-meaning and goal...
How do you claim the ability to know your True Will using only reason? Some other method?
I mean, as I see it, you want to perform the same process of finding your True Will without the use of ritual. That's fine. Get after it, or congratulations, as the case may be. I choose the use experience of ritual as an aid in focusing communications with my unconscious mind and gaining what benefit may be had from the experiences generated by that. I'm just wired that way. You're probably different. Fine. Who cares?
But, you know... attempting to discredit someone's personal experience and testimony based on what you believe should instead be the case... trying to say something can't be true of someone else because* you don't prefer that method*... It's just... a pointless errand... unless you're simply seeking to defend your own stance by attempting to make others look foolish.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
Thank you for that brilliant post, Los!
Yes, we seem to have a mostly similar "Vision of the Holy Guardian Angel" ..
Some comments:
"If you can locate one -- just one -- instance of your mind doing this, and feel the distance between your True Self and your mind's idea of yourself"
Yes, this is the task for me now .. catching myself in real-time-distortion as you say and getting to know how that feels and works ..
Then using these observations to bridging this Abyss, this distance between the "True Self" and the day-to-day-self .. (This distance is quite apparent to me) ..
I also somehow think that this is not quite enough, though .. It feels like a language to communicate with the "True Self" ..
Ref. the story of Exodus, and the role of the ten commandments as a means of bridging the abyss between the hebrews and their god ..
Another method is through artistic expression, and this works very well for the individual, but can give highly idiosyncratic expressions that are meaningless to other than the artist himself (and his Angel) .. Other than the ten commandments, the kaballah and the tarot seems like the traditional symbol-systems for this purpose .."Eh, I've never found that "thinking backwards" -- what a ridiculous idea -- does anything practially to help"
Hehe .. no, I see what you mean .. Perhaps it was just meant as a way of getting used to the idea of looking at the "timeline" of ones existence from outside of causality .. Today we can probably get much the same effect just by watching a video-clip playing backwards .. I think pretty much everybody today in the modern world has no problem with this "thinking backwards" ability ..
"Liber ThIShARB" seems pretty thorough and detailed to me btw .. The "past-life-stuff" is there I guess for people who like that sort of thing .. even they should be able to get a feel for the fact that their everyday selves are not running their lives .."Experience the world and yourself without thought/emotions."
I know how to do this - no problem
.. And even without the sense of "identity" .. It happened spontaneously the first time, and I have since learned with the help of a guide, to do it on purpose .. It was quite scary the first few times, but not anymore "You don't seek it, per se. You clear away the crap from your perceptive faculties, and you wait for it to come."
Exactly what I said. And in addition to clearing away the crap, it could also be useful to learn a language that is more in accord with actual reality .. such as the kabbalah or the tarot, in order to facilitate communication w/ the Angel ..
I am still looking for a good method of "clearing away the crap" .. "Sample Ritual #9" still looming on the horizon ..
I see you are sceptical of ritual, Lon .. I don't really see the distinction between "marking the start of something" and "causing it to happen" though ..
If I was to get married for instance, how would I do that without "marking the start" of the marriage in some way? ..
Even though I could argue that marriage is really about doing the day-to-day work, and this is what actually "causes" the marriage to happen, I have a feeling the way one chooses to start the marriage (if it's a grand marriage with vows said in earnest for instance, or a sham-marriage with meaningless vows on the other hand) will influence to a large degree, if not outright determine, the course of the marriage itself ..Are you sure this distinction between "starting" and "causing" is really a necessary one? .. Or is it perhaps an example of "the crap" that needs to be cleared away from ones perceptions?
..Love is the law, love under will,
Frater Katanoese -
@Bereshith said
" But, you know... attempting to discredit someone's personal experience and testimony based on what you believe should instead be the case... trying to say something can't be true of someone else because* you don't prefer that method*... It's just... a pointless errand... unless you're simply seeking to defend your own stance by attempting to make others look foolish."
Good point.
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@Bereshith said
"Well, given that you admit that one is "altered" by every experience, how much more so by specific acts performed with the intention of discovering the True Will?"
That's the question. You seem to think that rituals do more to enable someone to discover the True Will than does, say, watching an episode of Breaking Bad. I don't agree, and I don't think you have any reason to think that ritual does.
"Well, you have two forms of evidence (if not proofs) available to you: The testimony of those who have performed such rituals"
Well, as I said in the other thread, we can look at what Crowley actually said that rituals do – you see he, unlike you, could actually explain how he thought rituals work with more than just “it’s my experience!” Let’s take Liber Samekh as an example, since the ritual is designed to bring the individual Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA (which is a metaphor for discovering the Will, the very thing we’re talking about in this thread).
When we do look at it, we see that Crowley says it works like so:
" the Adept will be free to concentrate on his deepest self, that part of him which unconsciously orders his true Will, upon the realization of his Holy Guardian Angel. The absence of his bodily, mental and astral consciousness is indeed cardinal to success, for it is their usurpation of his attention which has made him deaf to his Soul, and his preoccupation with their affairs that has prevented him from perceiving that Soul."
And there we have it. The problem that the ritual is designed to solve is that the adept is “deaf to his Soul” because of the “usurpation of his attention” by “bodily, mental and astral consciousness.” The ritual works by distracting bodily, mental, and astral consciousness and allowing the magician to “concentrate on his deepest self.”
Based on this passage and many dozens more passages in Crowley’s writing, spanning his entire life, we can develop a model of discovering the True Will that also accords with reality:
You can scroll up and read my first post in this thread, where I explain how to do it. Discovering the True Will isn’t a “rational” process, in the sense that one doesn’t “think” one’s way to the True Will – it’s a process of observing and getting better at observing and then course correcting in real time.
I dispute that Crowley’s ritual methods are the best way to accomplish this task – in fact, I dispute that they’re very useful at all, to almost anyone. Sure he said the intention was to distract the mind and let the magician focus on the True Self, but in practice, (1) people usually get so distracted that they can’t properly concentrate on the True Self, and (2) even if people can concentrate on the True Self during a ritual, watching the True Self in that kind of setting gives very little useful information about it. It’s far better to watch the True Self in real life, day-to-day situations. That’s when one has to course-correct anyway, so the rituals are, at best, superfluous.
Look, I’m not trying to discourage you from performing rituals if you enjoy them. Hey, I enjoy them, too, and I routinely do banishing rituals still to this day. But I don’t run around pretending that they do anything more than relax my mind and summon up pleasant feelings. Certainly they – like all other rituals -- do close to nothing in regards to enabling someone to discover the True Will.
" It is my testimony of my personal experience to you."
And if you consult my other thread, you’ll discover that “experience has no explanatory power.”
Remember, we’re dealing with a subject here (Thelema) in which the central issue is that individuals form mistaken impressions about themselves. They “experience” themselves to be such-and-such a person, but they’re wrong.
This being the case – since the problem is trusting in the imagination, the thoughts, and “how it feels” – the solution can’t be to look deeper into the imagination. The solution has to be to learn to shut down the mental and imaginative faculties and perceive the Self without their distorting influence.
That’s really the only way to do it.
" attempting to discredit someone's personal experience and testimony"
I’m not at all attempting to “discredit [your] personal experience.” Obviously you had these personal experiences. But – as per my other thread – these experiences have no explanatory power. If we want to understand what’s actually going on, we have to reason about them, and we can rationally discuss the best way to discover the True Will.
Unless you have a strict and reliable way to identify the True Will – and a careful explanation as to what it is and how your practices work to enable you to discover it – you’re just flying blind, trusting whatever it kinda “feels” like and shielding yourself from learning to improve your practice by insisting it’s your “experience” and “personal testimony,” as if these things were somehow sacrosanct and infallible.
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@Katanoese said
"Thank you for that brilliant post, Los!
"
You're very welcome. I'm glad someone here appreciates my work.Oh, and Alrah, too. Thanks.
"Yes, we seem to have a mostly similar "Vision of the Holy Guardian Angel" .."
I think it's more than this. I think the True Self -- and its dynamic aspect, the True Will -- is precisely what you and I have been discussing. This conclusion can be discerned from Crowley's writings and (especially) confirmed by basic exercises in observing the Self.The alternative, thinking of the HGA as some kind of goblin that the individual contacts by doing the equivalent of a rain dance, is too ridiculous to even contemplate. [Just note: I'm critiquing an idea, not commenting on any individual or attacking any individuals]
"I see you are sceptical of ritual, Lon"
Los. It's a character from William Blake's late poems.
"I don't really see the distinction between "marking the start of something" and "causing it to happen" though ..
If I was to get married for instance, how would I do that without "marking the start" of the marriage in some way? .."In a marriage, the ritual marks the start of the marriage, but it doesn't cause it to happen. The day-to-day work of the couple does. If one undergoes a marriage ritual and then goes on living as a single person, then nothing has happened at all.
"Even though I could argue that marriage is really about doing the day-to-day work, and this is what actually "causes" the marriage to happen, I have a feeling the way one chooses to start the marriage (if it's a grand marriage with vows said in earnest for instance, or a sham-marriage with meaningless vows on the other hand) will influence to a large degree, if not outright determine, the course of the marriage itself .."
Sure, but in that case, the degree to which someone is invested in the ceremony reflects the attitude that they have going into the marriage.The ritual itself isn't doing anything here. Sure, it might be nice and pleasant, and all that. And sure, it's a lot of fun to do, but anyone who thinks that the ritual "causes" anything to happen is in danger of getting way too attached to the ritual itself. You know all those people on a wedding day who run around and make themselves sick thinking, "Oh, it's got to be perfect!!" and nearly passing out over the tiniest details? Those are the people who are waaaay too attached to something that's just symbolic.
"Are you sure this distinction between "starting" and "causing" is really a necessary one? .. Or is it perhaps an example of "the crap" that needs to be cleared away from ones perceptions?
.."Since there is a difference between marking the beginning of something and causing something, I contend it's useful to know. It's one more way the mind acknowledges actual reality, instead of its illusions.
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Yes, there are tons of things that have to do with magic that do not have to do with the True Will.
This does not negate the fact that there are tons of things that have to do with magic that do have to do with discovering the True Will.
Are you* trying *to miss the point?
You guys ever read someone named Aleister Crowley? This is all based on his work.
If you dispute his claims and the methodology he presented, then maybe this isn't for you.
Maybe... uh... Nietzsche mixed with some psychology... not Jung, of course... but, you know... some Behaviorism and stuff.
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@Bereshith said
"Yes, there are tons of things that have to do with magic that do not have to do with the True Will.
This does not negate the fact that there are tons of things that have to do with magic that do have to do with discovering the True Will."
And the question of this thread is how an individual knows that certain "magical" techniques actually do work to discover the True Will.
"You guys ever read someone named Aleister Crowley? This is all based on his work."
If you read above, I go through part of Crowley's writings on ritual and demonstrate what he's talking about when he says "True Will." I then evaluate whether or not the practices he designed to discover the True Will actually do what they "say on the tin" and whether there are any better methods to arrive at the goals he laid out.
My conclusion -- supported by sound and valid arguments -- is that Crowley's methods really aren't very good at all at achieving the goal he outlined. I propose a better one, supported again by sound and valid arguments. Feel free to read my first post in the thread, where I give a far superior method.
If you disagree, you are free to make a competing arugment.
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@Los said
"
And the question of this thread is how an individual knows that certain "magical" techniques actually do work to discover the True Will."And I respond with the idea that it's very similar process, except with the use of ritual to increase the volume of the conversation with the Self.
"
If you read above, I go through part of Crowley's writings on ritual and demonstrate what he's talking about when he says "True Will." I then evaluate whether or not the practices he designed to discover the True Will actually do what they "say on the tin" and whether there are any better methods to arrive at the goals he laid out.My conclusion -- supported by sound and valid arguments -- is that Crowley's methods really aren't very good at all at achieving the goal he outlined. I propose a better one, supported again by sound and valid arguments. Feel free to read my first post in the thread, where I give a far superior method.
If you disagree, you are free to make a competing arugment."
You can't know with the way you describe any more than you can know through the use and experience of ritual.
Such "knowledge," attained through either method, is *entirely subjective and cannot * legitimately be questioned by another person.
Also, it's rather confusing of you to use Crowley to dispute Crowley, as I don't have your list of criteria for which of his words to accept and which to reject.
I am left with the methodology he presented.
As I said, if you reject his methodology, which specifically included the use of magic, then perhaps this isn't the place for you.
If you claim to present a far superior method, then maybe start *your own *school and forum open to people interested in discussing your method. Then, when someone shows up with the sole intention of disputing your methodology, you can learn to demonstrate the tolerance exhibited by our host here.