How to start someone on Enochian?
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@Los said
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@Jason R said
" that empirical evidence doesn't exist today."Right, so on what grounds do you accept that it does work? As I've been pointing out, you don't appear to have a means of distinguishing its so-called "results" from the regular ol' coincidences that we know exist and happen all the time."
As I said before, in the past people thought it was impossible to fly, to go to the moon, to make superconductors, computers, Iphones, and countless other things that at SOME point there was no demonstrable proof for, just perhaps belief or theory. That mean they were wrong?
My "grounds" are, once again, for the third time at least - CONSISTENT results. Honest record keeping, and personal experience that satisfies me, or I wouldn't bother the next time. If I obtain the results I seek at least MOST of the time in a manner consistant with what I expect, that's "proof" enough. I get results, results that match what I required from the magic, who cares if some other person doesn't "believe" it?
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The evidence magic works is in the consistent results. From the outside on a purely limited perspective of others, and in the details of it coming about, it appears as coincedence. The "proof" is in the journal entries that show a history that sets it apart from the average probability. Its this subjective nature of the proof, of the journal keeping, and the wide range of personalities, etc., that make this "proof" weak to the skeptic.
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@Jason R said
"The evidence magic works is in the consistent results."
No, it's not. I consistently have coincidences happen to me, practically everyday. If I started prefacing some of these coincidences with "magical rituals," it couldn't possibly demosntrate that the rituals are "causing" the coincidences to happen.
Importantly, it couldn't even demonstrate it "to me." Nobody -- including me -- would have sufficient evidence to say that the rituals are causing anything to happen, no matter how "consistent" the coincidences appear to be.
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@Los said
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@Jason R said
"The evidence magic works is in the consistent results."No, it's not. I consistently have coincidences happen to me, practically everyday. If I started prefacing some of these coincidences with "magical rituals," it couldn't possibly demosntrate that the rituals are "causing" the coincidences to happen.
Importantly, it couldn't even demonstrate it "to me." Nobody -- including me -- would have sufficient evidence to say that the rituals are causing anything to happen, no matter how "consistent" the coincidences appear to be."
No, your totally misunderstanding me. It is beyond chance to ME in the results, if say 6 out of 7 workings are successful - all the time. That's just a made up set of numbers, but what I'm trying to say is, if the successes outweigh the failures that's "proof" to me. However someone like YOU can smirk at the record and say I'm either lying about it, stretching the truth to fit, or using confirmation bias etc. In addition the actual event occurs as if by luck, yet to ME, I know what I record and how accurate it is. I'm not going to just play this game of semantics with you, and keep going back and forth over the same clearly stated explanation. Reread if you don't get it, its clear what I'm saying, you simply want to argue.
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@Jason R said
"It is beyond chance to ME in the results, if say 6 out of 7 workings are successful - all the time [...] that's "proof" to me."
Sorry, but that's not valid evidence -- much less "proof" -- to anybody, not even to you.
All you're saying is that six out of seven times, you want something and then get the thing you want. That's not unbelievable or even unlikely.
Let me try to explain with an example. In my personal, daily life, I want things and then get things all the time. Consistently. I'd say I want X and then get X waaaaay more than 6 out of 7 times. The difference between me and you is that I don't articulate the wants as formal rituals/prayers. You do, and then you claim that there's a causal relationship between the ritual/prayer and getting X. But there's no reason to think that such a causal relationship exists. The evidence that you use to try to support the claim that there's a causal relationship -- i.e. that you consistently get the stuff you want -- doesn't demonstrate causality because, as I just pointed out, other people also consistently want things and get those things without doing any rituals/prayers at all.
I understand what you're saying, and I understand why your experiences might seem to you to be evidence for your claim, but they're not.
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@Los said
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@Jason R said
"It is beyond chance to ME in the results, if say 6 out of 7 workings are successful - all the time [...] that's "proof" to me."Sorry, but that's not valid evidence -- much less "proof" -- to anybody, not even to you.
All you're saying is that six out of seven times, you want something and then get the thing you want. That's not unbelievable or even unlikely.
Let me try to explain with an example. In my personal, daily life, I want things and then get things all the time. Consistently. I'd say I want X and then get X waaaaay more than 6 out of 7 times. The difference between me and you is that I don't articulate the wants as formal rituals/prayers. You do, and then you claim that there's a causal relationship between the ritual/prayer and getting X. But there's no reason to think that such a causal relationship exists. The evidence that you use to try to support the claim that there's a causal relationship -- i.e. that you consistently get the stuff you want -- doesn't demonstrate causality because, as I just pointed out, other people also consistently want things and get those things without doing any rituals/prayers at all.
I understand what you're saying, and I understand why your experiences might seem to you to be evidence for your claim, but they're not."
You see? Here we go again! I even stated I made that figure up simply as an example. I knew you would jump out of your seat and wave your finger at it.
The point IS there IS no "evidence" YOU WILL EXCEPT OR ANY SKEPTIC, because the "proof" is based on subjective record keeping, or I should say rather it is easily argued it can be. BUT! To the person recording it, IF they are honest with themselves, and in recording the results, it is proof of SUCCESS.
NOW! IF 90% of the time the results are obtained that is ENOUGH proof to the worker to encourage them to continue doing it. Why not if it seems to work?
IN ADDITION, from the outside, looking AT THE EVENT ITSELF, it does not unfold or occur with puffs of smoke or lightening from heaven, but as if simply luck.
I'm done spelling it out as if to a child. You either get it or don't. I could care less.
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MAGIC itself works OUTSIDE the realm of known SCIENCE, and so a demand for "proof" and casualty is problomatic on that ground. It works. We cant "prove" how. Live with it. If one obtains their aim, it obtains their aim. So WHAT if you dont want to? Don't then lol. If the results are reliable enough, then that is all that is needed.
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@Los said
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@Jason R said
" It works."As I've been suggesting, nobody has any valid grounds for saying that it works. You just admitted that you don't, for example."
Lol ok. Well guess what? "MAGIC" - and this may surprise you, and I hate to burst your bubble, ISNT a mainstream science.
Its Magic. Unproven. Yes, your in a forum about a subject and technique that is so far unproven. You know, like so many other things in our past that were at one time thought "impossible"? Like that.
The good news is, YOU don't have to stress over it! Its ok, we are ALL ok if we decide to believe it. Los doesn't have to save us.
Whew! I bet that took a load off hour shoulders right?
