To tell or not to tell...?
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
What about the thelemic ethics on telling great work stuff to profanes?
Crowley says we should talk openly, and this forum is a good example of that.
I try myself as much as i can to tell what i know when people ask me.
But... many times i feel it is not genuine questions. So, when i feel that, either i dont answer at all, or, if i do, i usually get a confirmation soon after that the person wasnt sincere. So basically that person just made me lose time and energy for "nothing"(?).
The thing is i tend to see the good part of the person, regardless what i'm feeling. I go like "it's just a matter of time anyway, and what i say will hit on the good parts anyway". But... if the effect actually takes 5000 incarnations more to work i guess i'm just too naive and wasting my time, as i do progress fast myself in this incarnation.
Also when one's ready, he just gets his hands dirty, and nothing can stop him. It can be felt.
At first it got me angry when someone made me lose an hour pretending he was interested in alchemy to find out it was just to hear an "entertaining story"(like i supposed in the first place but deliberately avoided to act on it). The guy should have go and watch a movie instead. Or maybe i'm a good story teller or something.
Well i am as far as the subject interests me, i could talk hours and people listen. But there's something wrong. They watch the finger instead of the moon i'm pointing at.Now i dont get angry at all, but i feel it would be better to just advise a book or two and/or say i just dont want to talk about it. Especially as i'm just a good beginner anyway. If a guy is genuinely interested he'll learn way much asking here, finding a master, or getting his hands dirty. I might even mislead if i dont make this clear(and this is easier said than done).
But on the other hand, it would mean i judge the person from what i feel. Knowing i'm not advanced, my feelings arent clean. I project shit. So there still could be a point in just answering.
Even i sometimes ask none genuine questions. I knew a buddhist master. He would avoid answering me systematically if so. It did help me understand that. It took time(i was thinking "what a prick" for months) but it worked
On the other hand when i ask semi genuine questions here(not intentionaly...i realise it after
) , most of the time i do get good answers anyway. But it may be because it's clear i get my hands dirty now. It may be felt regardless my vaciliations.I wonder how Jim and other advanced guys here deal with the non genuine questions coming from profanes/non genuine seekers of the way...?
What do you think? Maybe should i just apply the most common sense possible, which would be, i guess, keep on aswering but stoping as soon as i feel significantly i lose my time? And for the people i know anyway, establish a kind of rule, for instance if a guy makes me lose time twice with this, i could say "we wont be talking again about this unless you get your hands dirty and/or read books for at least 6 months and/or find a master" or something?
I dont see myself doing the "buddhist master" thing even though it seems to work. I think it would be very pretentious at my humble level, and thus potentialy misleading indirectly. On the other hand it might be unconscious resistances speaking, whereas emulating that master could solve the problem the cleanest way possible...? What could be the best in most cases, for profanes and non sincere seekers who keep on asking?
Or is the very act of asking myself all these questions a testimony of unconscious pretentiousness? Like i unconsciously think i have responsabilities and powers that i actually dont. I know it happens to most students of psychology(thanksfully i managed to go beyond this there lol... very funny when you look back at it), and i'm wondering if i'm not transfering the exact same thing in this field(great work)...!
Please tell me straight if you think so. And, by the way... does this correspond to a demon or specific ordeal on the tree of life? It could help to find ways to deal with it.Love is the law, love under will.
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I've been accused of wasting people's time a lot. Not so much related to the occult, but with other things. I've been told I'm not really interested in something, and that I ask too many stupid questions. I've also been called retarded, and that telling me anything is a pointless exercise.
Ironically, that hasn't (so far) applied to my interest in the occult, probably because I'm so far above the common person with occult knowledge and also the fact I'm not looking for any occult teacher or an order to show me anything. I figure most likely no matter what they have to say, they won't know me very well, so they will give advice that doesn't work or is meaningless anyway.
I think Crowley had some of the same issues with students. In the end, he learned so much, knew so much jargon and terminology, that he found himself talking over the students heads. The students would try in vain to understand him, and end up more confused than ever. This is why he started the AA, in hopes that someone less advanced would be better at teaching the less advanced students so they would not get confused. I'm not going to comment on the success or lack of success in that method, but what I am going to mention is Magick without Tears.
Eventually, he ended up writing letters back and forth with one of his students, and since he couldn't mange to talk sense to people who lacked the in depth knowledge he had, he had least made some sense to people with less background information. Now, admittedly, Magick without Tears was not the first occult book I read, far from it. However, it more or less convinced me on the utility of Thelema, or at least that I should give some of the techniques a try.
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Thanks for the input !
@Shadow Self said
"I've been accused of wasting people's time a lot. Not so much related to the occult, but with other things. I've been told I'm not really interested in something, and that I ask too many stupid questions. I've also been called retarded, and that telling me anything is a pointless exercise."
I see it as an attempt to obtain control over the person. He who asks questions sets a frame. For instance police ask questions to the thieves. It's not the thieves who ask police. When i do it myself i feel like a prick aftewards.
That's why also i dont like being put in the "master" position because it's actually the "student" who has control, and most of the time he will be very harsh and disrespectful(unconsciously) with the master. The master is there to be put down. That may correspond to the classic oedipus stuff. Some people are very good at making people feel like "masters"... but the only reason they do it is to make them fall afterwards ! So i respect a lot the masters who roll with it. It's a hard position to be in !@Shadow Self said
"Ironically, that hasn't (so far) applied to my interest in the occult, probably because I'm so far above the common person with occult knowledge and also the fact I'm not looking for any occult teacher or an order to show me anything. I figure most likely no matter what they have to say, they won't know me very well, so they will give advice that doesn't work or is meaningless anyway."
Yeah they cant know you, but the good ones know that and they'll avoid to mislead you... And what can be great is your own analysis of your relationship with the master.
@Shadow Self said
"I think Crowley had some of the same issues with students. In the end, he learned so much, knew so much jargon and terminology, that he found himself talking over the students heads. The students would try in vain to understand him, and end up more confused than ever. This is why he started the AA, in hopes that someone less advanced would be better at teaching the less advanced students so they would not get confused. I'm not going to comment on the success or lack of success in that method, but what I am going to mention is Magick without Tears."
Ok, i'll read that book again. Yes it makes sense. I never thought it this way. But it's similar in brazilian jiu jitsu. Now i get why.
Just like in A.'.A.'., the gap between each grade is so huge there's no point having a teacher of 3 or 4 grades beyond oneself. Of course he may supervise, but he'll not spend much time with low grades. That's the job of intermediate grades.@Shadow Self said
"Eventually, he ended up writing letters back and forth with one of his students, and since he couldn't mange to talk sense to people who lacked the in depth knowledge he had, he had least made some sense to people with less background information. Now, admittedly, Magick without Tears was not the first occult book I read, far from it. However, it more or less convinced me on the utility of Thelema, or at least that I should give some of the techniques a try."
Maybe it's a will/karmic thing, to choose or not to teach everybody when one reaches high level. If it's their will like in the case of Crowley and Jim, or the Gracie brothers and Irvin in brazilian jiu jitsu, then they find ways to adapt the pedagogy to everyone and it just works.
So everyone can benefit from the knowledge at their own level. That's great.So you see how you've just helped me? Even if(or especially as) you didnt answer directly at all
, my own reactions to what you said actually answers me to a great extent. You might be a good master (mistress)... and no i dont say that to make you fall afterwards -
I usually keep it to entertaining stories...
As a general rule, I do not approach people.
Though I try to remain open and inviting
Allowing the other person to direct the conversation.There comes a point where you start recognizing that every conversation is about the Work
Or that the only thing you bother speaking about is the Work