"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
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@Takamba said
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@Azidonis said
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These waters have already been tested by the recently published "Class B", released in 2009.
"What are you referring to?"
Initiation in the Aeon of the Child was published as Class B.
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@Azidonis said
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@Takamba said
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@Azidonis said
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These waters have already been tested by the recently published "Class B", released in 2009.
"What are you referring to?"
Initiation in the Aeon of the Child was published as Class B."
Under the imprimatur: V; V.V.; & S.U.A. I believe, so as long as people pay attention and know which Lineage of A.'.A.'. produced it then it shouldn't pose a huge problem.
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@Archaeus said
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@Azidonis said
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Initiation in the Aeon of the Child was published as Class B."Under the imprimatur: V; V.V.; & S.U.A. I believe, so as long as people pay attention and know which Lineage of A.'.A.'. produced it then it shouldn't pose a huge problem."
Oh. I haven't got that book. It is on my list though. I was only planning to buy it as a curiosity since I have all the published Crowley material on my shelves and though other Thelemic authors have made interesting little things to read, none of it really adds much as far as I'm concerned.
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@Archaeus said
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Under the imprimatur: V; V.V.; & S.U.A. I believe, so as long as people pay attention and know which Lineage of A.'.A.'. produced it then it shouldn't pose a huge problem."Interesting.
Well, regarding the "kill me" version being printed under the imprimatur "A∴A∴ Publication in Class A," I think you know how the preacher in me stands. But the scholar in me says you'd at least need some kind of specific lineage reference in order to even make "A∴A∴ Publication in Class A" a factual statement.
I don't like where the precedent leads, but it's the only honest, responsible thing to do if it's going to be done anyway. Otherwise, it's just pure fiction to cite A∴A∴ authority if not a thinly veiled authority-grab.
But it would aid those like me to discern the level of final authority given by each lineage to the Prophet. I want it "as received," not "'as corrected' a century later by sincere scholarship under the personal belief that a particular coincidence reflected the Will of the Secret Chiefs."
Class A?
How declasse.
Filioque!
Filioque! -
Question.
Could the reason AC noted within parenthesis in Liber XXXI* "fill me"* be that Awaiz informed him to use* "fill me"* instead of "kill me"? Perhaps this quote was a note to himself of what change Awaiz wanted in the paraphrase in relation to the Book of the Law in particular? AC may have already known the paraphrase used* "kill me"*, yet when he was instructed to add that paraphrase within Liber L, he simply jotted down the important difference to be used? This may explain why elsewhere he used the "kill me", and yet never changed "fill me" in Liber Legis. Just a thought, and possibility?
Also, do we all agree AC made that penciled "k" in the margin of that book? How do we know that someone else didn't (Windram?), thinking to themselves "hey this is wrong, the paraphrase says kill me?". Maybe someone else simply noted a possible mistake, and was later corrected by AC that it was to be different as per Awaiz in Liber L?
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My scribe Ankh-af-na-khonsu, the priest of the princes, shall not in one letter change this book; but lest there be folly, he shall comment thereupon by the wisdom of Ra-Hoor-Khu-it.
@Jim Eshelman said
"...the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition"
I'll guess that the errors acknowledged were only after the fact and the 'got it right' claim came before these were found. as such, any error/change might have been overlooked/approved if some other error/change was. it seems difficult to use that as a seal or benchmark."...{Hymenaeus Beta} has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a {culture} of tolerance and active sharing on the matter."
it's a valuable contrast of methods. I cannot for the life of me see sectarianism or denominationalism curtailed in Thelema as long as there are sects, sectarian leaders, denominations, and ecclesiastical advocates who will shape and influence the consciousness of others. I like both of your approaches, especially as you do not prohibit the advocation by one another (i prefer to walk a Middle Way between preservation of confidence and public philosophy)."I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript."
I agree that this is a very important bit of data, something that should have been included in a transparent account by the Scribe."There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript.""
I know what you mean, and i've been tracking this a little due to my peripheral and initiatory involvement. a 'temporal footprint' seems to be allowed by religious groups around the origins of their special documents and greater and greater consensus develops around that footprint terminating, the faithful splintering over more and less convincing contributor evidence on the matter.that's the first component. with the installation of a Classification (A.'.A.'.) system along, and in the leeward, side of scriptural origin, this becomes all the more difficult and confusing. when the reality is such that sequential published versions actually do have differences ('corrections' based on authorial intention, apparently), these Classes seem to represent a stopgap measure, an inhibition, against the transmutation and morphing to which such documents may be subjected (at each change in publishing losing their ability to be taken seriously).
the addition of initiatic vows on top of this seems rather more dramatic, and adds pressure toward the same end; pressure that may turn inward in the instance where what may be perceived, on the one hand, to be a correction based on authorial intent, may be seen as betrayal (as against oaths about changing scripture) on the other.
"The Book of the Law is not Crowley's work - his literary estate haven't even claimed that it is - and, in any case, it has been published since 1909, so it is in the public domain and not subject to control by any human author or his/her successors. - In short, it isn't {the O.T.O.'s} property even in a mundane, legal sense."
diverging radically on Liber CCXX by changing a single letter might be substantial enough to 'brand' (as through order copyright) the particular configuration of letters by formula and thus control this order's scripture, however.Los has a good point when he writes:
@Los said"No one's "changing the Book of the Law." There has been a proposed correction to the text (which already varies in lots of ways from the manuscript anyway)...."
it's even been admitted that the various 'fill' versions of Liber CCXX have varied by 'corrections' and 'errors', though i can also understand those who are upset because they perceive this to be a betrayal of oaths. in part it depends on where one sits in relation to the social group(s) at effect (e.g. an OTO, an AA).even so, in response to Avshalom, who writes:
@Avshalom Binyamin said"If you're not interested in the source text, or in the source of the will (the divine, not the individual), and you're not interested in Crowley except where he can be corroborated by others, why bother with Thelema at all?"
i can affirm that connections may exist that have as their foundation a respect for all philosophies of will and an admiration for anything respecting individual sovereignty. this was one of the primary vectors of my approach to the Thelemic, sufficient to live with and love a good number of the Beast's admirers and cultists. I may focus on the Law of Thelema as i understand it (relating in fact to the source of will in the individual, equating this with divinity in a manner), and thus the cults of the Beast hold a special meaning to me -- one I encounter in part as a measure of discipline.with respect to this specific change (fill to kill), i thought you, Brother Eshelman, and belmurru have adequately summarized the convincing argument against the change:
@belmurr said" {Crowley} liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it. ... one marginal correction by the author in a single exemplar of the text in one of its early printings can not be taken as indicative of the author's continual wish to change the text, especially when further printings supervised by the author, over decades, do not show the change nor possess such a marginal correction."
it is rather odd that the heavy focus on preventing 'the change of one letter' (in style or whatever) may have led to the incident in some weird way. my guru informs me that Crowley was following after the Qur'an, so it isn't unique or original to Thelema and scripture. this appears to be correct: witness Qur'an 6:115: "And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." and 18:27: "And recite, {O Muhammad}, what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge."extended outcomes already have been noted by Berashith (oto-usa.org and hermetic.com 220 documents changing their online versions to 'kill'), who puts his finger on the real and enduring problem when saying that "the issue of the authority to present a document as an 'A∴A∴ Publication in Class A' is of greater importance" and that "one could raise question after question about the nature of Class A documents and whether the authority to change them actually exists if one has good reasons, good intentions, and the 'proper' authority." looking at the soft white underbelly of "Class A" publishing that includes changes through the years, and even overt 'announced' changes such as this one, we may wonder how long these systems of classification will appeal to fluctuating cults.
though i have covered what i think of the social movement attendant to that, i'd like to respond here with respect to an outlet of the Great White Brotherhood and Third Order (presumed) to say that by my affiliated understanding its terrestrial manifestations are not that crucial, except to the corporeal aspirants who may participate in, and be influenced, by them.
with Simon Iff i agree that
"If this stuff is really initiating a crisis, I would see the danger for Thelema more in going the way of fundamentalist religion...."
I saw signs of that decades ago. my brother Ebony told me he met with 'Baptist Thelemites' wearing suits and attending Gnostic Mass, giving me the impression that we could look forward to a far greater conservatism making its way into the cultus. the changes apparently within the OTO of its EGC consolidation and initiation rite tweaking gave several of my kin incentive to break ties. perhaps this is just part of what brother Binyamin calls "{calcifying} around an esoteric core".Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein.
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http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae111/alrah/seeme_zpsea3eb53c.jpg
Please share.... everywhere!
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This morning I sent the above flier out to almost every single OTO lodge in the entire world.
I'd noticed that while the news about the change is hot in the UK and US, the word hasn't filtered through to the rest of the world yet.
If we want to stop the OTO from changing the Book of the Law we need to reach out to as many Thelemites in as many countries as we can, with one clear and central argument against the change. That is the purpose of this flier. Please get pro-active - and if you know a foreign language, convert this flier or make a new one. Let's get this message out there!
A .'. 93 93/93!
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@Alrah said
"...If we want to stop the OTO from changing the Book of the Law"
the (c)OTO will not change The Book of the Law, it will at most change its published versions."we need to reach out to as many Thelemites in as many countries as we can"
you won't be able to predict where they are located. some of them may be part of the cults, but the bulk of Thelemites will never have heard of the Beast."with one clear and central argument against the change. ..."
it's a top-down heirarchy (Old AEon). its incentives are only partly informed by A.'.A.'. standards (insofar as those who are affiliated to this initiatic club are actually connected to the Third Order). it isn't a democracy!! did you notice what happened when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order previously? -
@nigris said
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@Alrah said
"...If we want to stop the OTO from changing the Book of the Law"
the (c)OTO will not change The Book of the Law, it will at most change its published versions."By "published versions" you mean the new versions of The Book of the Law that will show the change, right?
Which means, they plan on changing (or "editing", depending on how PC you want to be), The Book of the Law.
Unless you just see The Book of the Law as the manuscript only, with Liber CCXX not being The Book of the Law.
@nigris said
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"we need to reach out to as many Thelemites in as many countries as we can"
you won't be able to predict where they are located. some of them may be part of the cults, but the bulk of Thelemites will never have heard of the Beast."This refers to "adoption", and I would have advised Crowley against ever doing it, with his list of Saints. But what do I know?
@nigris said
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"with one clear and central argument against the change. ..."
it's a top-down heirarchy (Old AEon). its incentives are only partly informed by A.'.A.'. standards (insofar as those who are affiliated to this initiatic club are actually connected to the Third Order). it isn't a democracy!! did you notice what happened when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order previously?"Oh, do tell! What happened "when there were objections to 'reforms' made within the order [A:.A:.] previously", and what were those objections and reforms?
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So, just learned of the Kill/Fill schism (yes, been out of Thelemic news for a while now) and read through the discussions on it. Oddly though, I can't help but feel a little non-plussed about it. I get the idea of wanting to have it exactly right, but sometimes things are not that simple and so I'm riding on this Hegelian wave of synthetic thinking.
I can understand why Crowley might have had difficulties deciding which is the more appropriate.
The light is mine; its rays consume me.
To me it seems the filling is also a killing. Tried to fish for a quick gematria correlation, but didn't find one at first glance. Nevertheless, it seems there is scarcely a difference between the two or rather, that as long as there is a difference, a schism if you will (a wound if you dare), the filling/killing has not been completed.
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I don't mean to pick on you, but this is my point.
Your thoughts would be more valid if it were a Class B document.
However, it is a Class A document, and the issue is one of authority and nothing more.
Of course, a room full of scholars will tend to be biased toward the authority of the scholarly perspective. But it's a Class A document, and scholarly criticisms are irrelevant.
One either allows the Class A designation to be potentially more meaningful than one may rationally justify or not. That's the point of it, and any other more critical response kills that potential and places the power of the original text beneath, lower than, the power of the scholar and the rational mind.
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I can understand why someone who uses non-plussed to mean nonchalant would be a bit lackadaisical about word choice...
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So, you disagree about the "filling" also being a "killing"? That's the point after all, not an assumed mistake in my English or Liber AL being Class A.
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What if that's a question/concept that people shouldn't have to deal with the first time they pick up the Law?
What if...? There's a million of those that submission to the Adept's final Class A publication would silence. That's my point. That's the reason for the classification system...
The Law has to serve all three readings at once: first the Silver, then the Gold, then the Stones of Precious Water.
What if altering it jacks with that? What if the change emphasizes one reading more than the others, making it serve the others less?
What if? What if? What if?
Or just... leave it as received, and leave room for the mysteries of particularity that the Class A designation was designed to protect.
Well, my intelligence is exhausted on the subject.
Peace.
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LOL. Richard T. Cole emailed me this today...
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae111/alrah/RTCStele_zpsffa6e6bc.jpg
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LOL An instant classic!
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@Bereshith said
"What if that's a question/concept that people shouldn't have to deal with the first time they pick up the Law?
What if...? There's a million of those that submission to the Adept's final Class A publication would silence. That's my point. That's the reason for the classification system...
The Law has to serve all three readings at once: first the Silver, then the Gold, then the Stones of Precious Water.
What if altering it jacks with that? What if the change emphasizes one reading more than the others, making it serve the others less?
What if? What if? What if?
Or just... leave it as received, and leave room for the mysteries of particularity that the Class A designation was designed to protect.
Well, my intelligence is exhausted on the subject.
Peace."
Ok, I see your point. For what it's worth, I do approach the change rather critically myself. I'm not entirely convinced it's necessary or correct. However, since the publication of it is outside of my control... I just found it interesting that mayhaps Crowley himself also had doubts (at least at some point) as to what the word should have been. Maybe he couldn't remember what was spoken through him and distrusted the transcription because with those two similar words there might have been a human error. Considering that in the context on some thematic level they seem nigh interchangeable as well seems to add to the confusion and thus I do find that an interesting possibility.
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93, This is just a quick update on the status of the petition against changing the Book of the Law.
As of this moment we have 192 signatories to the petition, and Bill Breeze, Frater Aion, Frater shiVa, and Lon Milo Duquette are all being notified as to the status of the petition as it grows in support. Thelemites from all over the world are signing the petition and sharing it on Facebook.
If you haven't already signed and shared... here's the link to the petition once again.
Thank you everyone!
93 93/93.