Thelemic Materialism (Thelemic Philosophy)
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@Los said
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No, the objective conclusion is that the person has had an experience that seemed like he was leaving his body."
In my case, the experience was not leaving my body, but returning to it. In the mornings when I would awake, I would see my body sleeping in bed next to my little brother. I would feel a 'pull' in my stomach and float down until I entered my body.
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This is where the comparison to hunger breaks down: "hunger" is a label for an entirely internal feeling. Paying attention to one's internal feelings is more than sufficient for demonstrating that one is hungry. But "leaving the body and traveling around" isn't (supposed to be) a label for a similar kind of internal feeling or daydream -- the implication of the label is that one really has gone outside of the body and is capable of perceiving things (like, say, things in the next room) that, under a typical understanding of the way stuff works, that person shouldn't be able to perceive by sitting still with his eyes closed."
I have no idea what your talking about. I would look down in waking consciousness and see my body and float down to it. There was no dreaming, I was awake and I could also feel the sensation returning to my body.
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If all you mean is "I had a dream where it seemed like I left my body," I wouldn't bother questioning that at all. But if what you're saying is that you really did, honestly and truly, leave your body, then just observing your own experience doesn't furnish you with sufficient evidence to make that claim."
I dont need evidence to make the claim, I experienced it. to say ' it appeared like I was entering my body' is just as relevant as saying it appears that I am typing this sentence right now. yes it certainly does appear that way when it actually appears that way.
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If you really left your body, then you would be able to "astral travel" into the house next door where a neutral third party has printed two random words from a book on a piece of paper, read the words, return to your body, and report the words to another neutral third party who stays with your body. You would be able to do this over and over again, to the degree that it would be obvious that this isn't some daydream you had -- it would be crystal clear that you really did leave your body and really were gaining new information that you couldn't have had otherwise."
I have no idea if this was 'astral travel' or not, and I did not have control over it, but I was able to observe my room, my self, and my brother as exactly as they were in the room.
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But nobody can do that. Because "astral travel" seems to be the rough equivalent of having a strong daydream."Lol to be objective, you mean "Because "astral travel" *appears to me * to be the rough equivalent of having a strong daydream".
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"the tests [...] perform better than possible by chance."
Yeah sure, whatever you say, buddy.
One of my favorite mockeries of this kind of nonsense was written by Robert Todd Carroll in his article "What if Dean Radin's Right?" [Radin being a wackaloo who supports this kind of nonsense, of course]
A few choice excerpts that sum up my feelings on the subject as well:
@Robert Todd Carroll said
"The evidence Radin presents, however, is little more than a hodgepodge of occult statistics. Unable to find a single person who can correctly guess a three-letter word or move a pencil an inch without trickery, the psi researchers have resorted to doing complex statistical analyses of data. In well-designed studies they assume that whenever they have data that, by some statistical formula, is not likely due to chance, they attribute the outcome to psi. A well-designed study is one that carefully controls for such things as cheating, sensory leakage (unintentional transfer of information by non-psychic means), inadequate randomization, and other factors that might lead to an artifact (something that looks like it's due to psi when it's actually due to something else).
The result of this enormous data that Radin cites is that there is statistical evidence (for what it's worth) that indicates (however tentatively) that some very weak psi effects are present (so weak that not a single individual who participates in a successful study has any inkling of possessing psychic power). Nevertheless, Radin thinks it is appropriate to speculate about the enormous implications of psi for biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, religion, medicine, technology, warfare, police work, business, and politics. Never mind that nobody has any idea as to how psi might work. That is a minor detail to someone who can write with a straight face (apparently) that:
@Dean Radin said" lots of independent, simple glimpses of the future may one day innocently crash the future. It's not clear what it means to "crash the future," but it doesn't sound good. (297)"
No, it certainly doesn't sound good. But, as somebody once said, "the future will be better tomorrow."
[...]
As noted above, in The Conscious Universe, Radin uses statistics and meta-analysis to prove that psychic phenomena really do exist even if those who have the experiences in the labs are unaware of them. Statistical data show that the world has gone psychic, according to the latest generation of parapsychologists. You may be unconscious of it, but your mind is affecting random number generators all over the world as you read this. The old psychic stuff—thinking about aunt Hildie moments before she calls to tell you to bugger off—is now demonstrated to be true by statistical methods that were validated in 1937 by Burton Camp and meta-validated by Radin 60 years later when he asserted that meta-analysis was the replication parapsychologists had been looking for. The only difference is that now when you think of aunt Hildie it might be moments before she calls her car mechanic and that, too, may be linked to activity in your mind that you are unaware of."
The lawls come hot and heavy when the subject is insane tripe written by people who make grandiose claims on the back of a handful of number games they play. It really is a trip. Full article: www.skepdic.com/essays/radin.html
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@ldfriend56 said
"I dont need evidence to make the claim, I experienced it. to say ' it appeared like I was entering my body' is just as relevant as saying it appears that I am typing this sentence right now. yes it certainly does appear that way when it actually appears that way."
Right, let's say you seemed to be typing a sentence into a word processor, and then you go to bed, but when you wake up the next day, the sentence is gone. Word processor is still up, but no sentence is on it. No signs that anyone has been in your house. No signs that the computer has experienced any kind of "crash" or "glitch." What you thought that you did the night before has left absolutely no trace at all on anything. Now you have some reason to be skeptical that you actually did write that sentence, even though it seemed that you did.
Let's say that it also seems you can leave your body. But when you do this, you can't go and obtain any information -- at all -- that you didn't already know or couldn't have guessed on your own. You've not only got grounds to be skeptical that you really left your body, but if you seriously can never obtain this kind of information when you "astral project," you have absolutely no reason to think you actually left your body, no matter how convincing it may have seemed to you.
You disagree? Then astral project into a room where a neutral third party is waiting with random words printed on a piece of paper, read them, and report them to the other netural third party who waits with your body. Report the correct words and do this several times.
What's that? No? Gee, what a surprise....
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So statistics are no longer valid when you dont like the results.
How objective.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So statistics are no longer valid when you dont like the results."
You know the old saying, "Figures don't lie but liars figure." Statistics are very open to manipulation, and that's just when conducting very simple kinds of opinion polls or collecting data on crime. Nevermind performing complicated meta-analysis of data and demonstrating that guessing games might, if we run a large enough number of guessing games, produce results that are a tiny bit higher than what we might assume by chance.
What in the world do you think that demonstrates?
Look how paltry this stuff is. This is your "evidence" for the outrageous claims you make and the outlandish beliefs you accept as given fact?
It's a joke. Like I said, name the two words printed on a piece of paper. Over and over again. Name the correct number out of twenty. Over and over again. If someone could do something like that even half the time or a third of the time, it would be incredible. But of course it doesn't happen because this stuff is all malarkey.
I realize you want to believe it, and this flimsy stuff gives you the excuse you need to pretend that your make believe games are actually doing something.
Good luck with that.
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Even the most hardcore, objective sceptics who don't believe in remote viewing admit that there is an unexplained statistical anomaly at play here.
My point is that you're a biased fanatic.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Even the most hardcore, objective sceptics who don't believe in remote viewing admit that there is an unexplained statistical anomaly at play here."
Call me severely skeptical of that, but even if I were to grant you that something (incredibly minor) is happening that cannot be explained, what do you think that would demonstrate?
It's not exactly an easy jump from "We don't know what this is" to "people have psychic powers" or even "Magic goblins grant my wishes."
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Semmelweis demonstrated a statistical correlation between hand washing and hospital survival rates decades before Pasteur demonstrated that germs exist.
Scientists are the ones discovering new stuff. Fanatics are the ones saying it can't be done.
I don't care whether remote viewing is true, or not. I just object to you pretending to know the truth, and to pretend you're a scientist. The universe is to big to justify such hubris.
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I asked you a question. Even if I were to grant that something minor is happening that we cannot explain right now, what do you think that would demonstrate?
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That information can be transmitted in ways other than the experiment prevented. It could demonstrate telepathy, precognition, or something else.
Regardless, it ain't chance.
We just don't know.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"We just don't know."
Correct. Even if the experiments actually indicate what some readings of the data might suggest -- and it's a big if -- the most that they would demonstrate is "we just don't know" what's actually going on.
It doesn't make any supernatural claims even slightly more likely to be true.
In logic, this kind of fallacy is called an "argument from ignorance." Just because we don't know something, it doesn't support any particular claim. Witness, for example, Creationists who try to find things that evolution can't explain, thinking that if they can demonstrate the existence of something that cannot be currently explained, it supports their supernatural ideas.
But "we just don't know" can never support a claim. Just like not being able to explain something in biology doesn't make creationism any more likely to be true, not being able to explain some statistical anomaly (which may or may not exist) in guessing games doesn't make any supernatural claims any more likely to be true.
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Well, I'm not trying to convince you to believe in something, so that's irrelevant.
Now, if you were alive between when Semmelweis and Pasteur did their main contributions, you would be correct to say:
We need more evidence
There's a statistical anomaly here
I haven't seen definitive proof of germsBut a Baffoon to say:
Germs do not exist
Nobody has good reason to believe in germsWhen you say the first things, you can have your mind changed. When you say the second things, you're being a fanatic.
The world will go on being what it is, regardless of you or my silly opinions. Skeptics and scientists are focused on discovering what that world is. Fanatics are busy worrying about making everyone believe the same as them.
You're a fanatic. Not a skeptic. And as long as you go around acting like one, I'm gonna keep pointing it out.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"But a Baffoon to say:
Germs do not exist
Nobody has good reason to believe in germs"Before there was sufficient evidence for germs, nobody had good reason to believe that they existed. The time to believe a claim is when the evidence is there for it, and as you've adequately demonstrated over the last few posts, these guessing-game experiments aren't evidence for any claim.
EDIT: And to anticipate your likely next line, of course it's fine for people to do experiments to try to demonstrate the existence of germs or magic or whatever. But nobody -- including the people performing the experiments -- has sufficient reason to accept the claims until these experiments generate evidence for those claims.
"You're a fanatic."
Oh, please. It's not being "fanatical" to not accept outlandish claims on the basis of the flimsy crap you've been pointing to.
It's also not being "fanatical" to point out that nobody is justified in using the flimsy crap you've been pointing to as evidence of any of the wildly outlandish claims that are routinely discussed on this forum as if they were self-evident fact.
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"Before there was sufficient evidence for germs, nobody had good reason to believe that they existed. The time to believe a claim is when the evidence is there for it, and as you've adequately demonstrated over the last few posts, these guessing-game experiments aren't evidence for any claim."
There was always sufficient evidence for germs as long as germs existed. People just hadn't noticed the evidence yet. There's a difference between what is, and what we happen to notice.
Semmelweis noticed a statistical correlation. He ended up saving lots of lives at a hospital because of it. He had sufficient evidence. But the scientific community didn't consider it sufficient.
"Sufficient evidence" is therefore subjective.
"Oh, please. It's not being "fanatical" to not accept outlandish claims on the basis of the flimsy crap you've been pointing to."
You're entitled to your own opinion. You're free to not accept anything you don't personally have sufficient evidence for.
"It's also not being "fanatical" to point out that nobody is justified in using the flimsy crap you've been pointing to as evidence of any of the wildly outlandish claims that are routinely discussed on this forum as if they were self-evident fact."
You're right. A more accurate term would be "dogmatic".
You're peddling your own dogma.
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You are aware that nothing is material ?
That is to say an energy wave form only becomes a particle when it is observed.
Until then, it has no "real" existence. -
Since every one here does not have a scientific background, I am going to avoid jargon and attempt to explain this in "layman" terms ( so any errors fall on my shoulders):
If we go by the findings of the physicist David Bohm:
Any apparent separation between matter and consciousness is an illusion.
A construct only occurring/assembled after both consciousness and matter have unfolded into the perceivable world of objects and sequential/linear time.
There is another realm of impercievable objects, including the inner worlds (such as thought) which take place outside the confluence of linear time and our senses.To quote Bohm:
"... at the sub-quantum level, in which the quantum potential operated, location ceased to exist. All points in space became equal to all other points in space, and it was meaningless to speak of anything being separate from anything else." -
@Los said
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You disagree? Then astral project into a room where a neutral third party is waiting with random words printed on a piece of paper, read them, and report them to the other netural third party who waits with your body. Report the correct words and do this several times.
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It's not that I disagree or agree, it's what you suggest here is irrelevant to my experience and my experience is for my own reference. I am not making claims about astral travel, I am reporting an experience that occurred OUTSIDE of my body and this was a phenomenon that occurred while I was a child until the age of around 5 in waking consciousness.
You don't believe it?
Who cares.
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@Los said
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Yeah sure, whatever you say, buddy.One of my favorite mockeries of this kind of nonsense was written by Robert Todd Carroll in his article "What if Dean Radin's Right?" [Radin being a wackaloo who supports this kind of nonsense, of course]
A few choice excerpts that sum up my feelings on the subject as well:"
Ahh, your feelings on the subject eh? Using a 'biased' source? what happened to reason Los?
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@Los said
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You know the old saying, "Figures don't lie but liars figure." Statistics are very open to manipulation, and that's just when conducting very simple kinds of opinion polls or collecting data on crime. Nevermind performing complicated meta-analysis of data and demonstrating that guessing games might, if we run a large enough number of guessing games, produce results that are a tiny bit higher than what we might assume by chance.
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Los do you have ANY background in science or statistical analysis to be able to make such a counter? HARDLY. You're copying and pasting or lifting words from someone else to make this claim. What you are saying is here absolutely false - or, at best goes both ways. If statistics can be manipulated to fit the interpretation, then that could very easily apply to the interpretation of data by the pseudo skeptic crowd.
You're playing the 'heads I win, tails you lose' game. You claim there is no evidence, but when presented with evidence, claim it's not really evidence. This is a very typical response and certainly not new. Statistical analysis is valid for all science, not just the science you like. Modern medical research use these same statistical averages to make claims about the efficacy of a drug trial.
You have absolutely no credibility here in this discussion.
If anyone wants to hear a REAL skeptical scientist (richard wiseman) debate this EXACT argument with a REAL scientist (rupert sheldrake) regarding a bit of research into psi
you will find this pod cast quite enjoyable. Wiseman not only gets refuted beyond measure, he also gets exposed for his bias and manipulation of the data to fit his worldview. He actually replicated sheldrake's data in his study, and covered it up!www.skeptiko.com/rupert-sheldrake-and-richard-wiseman-clash/
Scroll down a bit to find the audio player.
Let's USE THIS case Los. Would love to see how your arguments measure up. Try to support Wiseman in this study. Let's see how far your reason can go before you go completely irrational.
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@Uni_Verse said
"Since every one here does not have a scientific background, I am going to avoid jargon and attempt to explain this in "layman" terms ( so any errors fall on my shoulders):
If we go by the findings of the physicist David Bohm:
Any apparent separation between matter and consciousness is an illusion.
A construct only occurring/assembled after both consciousness and matter have unfolded into the perceivable world of objects and sequential/linear time.
There is another realm of impercievable objects, including the inner worlds (such as thought) which take place outside the confluence of linear time and our senses.To quote Bohm:
"... at the sub-quantum level, in which the quantum potential operated, location ceased to exist. All points in space became equal to all other points in space, and it was meaningless to speak of anything being separate from anything else.""Bohm, like Rupert Sheldrake and a small handful of other scientists, are part of the Holistic Philosophy of Science school. In the philosophy of science, this is a very very small school. The reductionist school in the philosophy of science is what makes up the majority of science.
Science only delivers KNOWLEDGE, it does not deliver UNDERSTANDING, philosophy does. It's not that the science is wrong, it's the reductionist philosophy of science that is incomplete and we have a long way to go before that horse takes a rest.