Thelemic Materialism (Thelemic Philosophy)

Los

@Legis said

"Los, you show up here constantly for the self-stated purpose of presenting a divergent opinion. You care intensely what is done here."

I care what people say, certainly, and if you keep saying incorrect things in public spaces, there's a chance that I -- or any other person who can figure out that what you've said is incorrect -- may point that out in public.

What I don't care about is what you do in your private life, what you personally believe, and even whether or not you agree with me. Frankly, it's pretty useful for me to have a near-constant stream of bad arguments flowing out of you. I could probably never, on my own, think of arguments that are quite that awful, so you -- and to be fair, most of the posters here -- are doing me a great service by providing such material.

Please understand that all of the above is a comment on content, and nothing I say is intended as a personal attack or even a personal comment of any kind.

"Scenario:

Empty Space and two particles.

The two particles are 1 centimeter apart. One second later, the particles are 1 meter apart.

In this scenario, a change occurs in space and time. No one is around to witness it, but the change occurs in Reality itself. Who knows it happened? No person. The Reality has simply changed. An event has happened, and it cannot un-happen. Something has happened.

Where was it recorded? Nowhere but in Reality itself. The fact exists in its history.

I call this one of the most simple examples of the Consciousness of the Universe. Reality "knows" it happened."

Now you're begging the question. Honest to goodness, your posts belong in a textbook as examples of logical errors.

"Begging the question" is when a person assumes something that his argument is trying to prove. In this case, Legis is trying to demonstrate that the universe has a consciousness (or, more accurately, that matter/energy exists "in consciousness"). He begins his argument by declaring that the universe "knows" things that happen, and right out of the gate, he's defeated his own argument.

This kind of logical error is sometimes called a "circular argument," and we could rephrase this argument to make it clearer: Legis is essentially saying that the universe is conscious because the universe knows things. And how does he know the universe knows things? Because the universe is conscious. And around and around we go.

"How does [reality] "know"? You tell me!!"

Classic.

See? I gotta admit, I would never have thought to use that as an argument.

"It happened. It cannot un-happen. It was a 1 meter change that occurred in the course of 1 second. It's a fact. That fact exists. Where does it exist? In Reality! In the flow of time that cannot go backward!"

That an event happened doesn't necessitate the existence of a conscious mind to somehow "record" it. You're asserting that a conclusion is necessary, but it does not follow (“does not follow” is the literal meaning of non sequitur, yet another term you’ve excellently illustrated for us)

"I choose to understand that as a form of Consciousness."

Well, there’s your problem. You see this as an axiom, but it’s not: it’s a factual claim.

"But if you think that your philosophy isn't constructed from the same sort of axiomatic choices made at the very beginning, then you are the one who is completely, loopy delusional"

Well, now we’re sort of getting back to where we were in that other thread, when you claimed that I had “unspoken assumptions” or something behind my position, and then when I asked you to explain what you were talking about, you stamped your feet and ran off to tell your mom.

Now, you’re a little clearer: you think that my position – like all positions, you seem to think – begins from axiomatic statements that cannot be demonstrated and are simply a choice, the same as your choice to just believe that consciousness is at root in the universe.

As I said in that other thread, my position may well begin from an axiom or two, depending on how we’re defining an axiom. But I definitely don't think that "the universe is rooted in consciousness" qualifies as an axiom any more than "God exists" qualifies as one.

To me, an axiom is something more like "My senses more or less reliablely connect me to reality." But I don't think of that as something one chooses. In fact, I think hardly anyone formally sits down and articulates acceptance of that statement: when each of us begins life, we have no choice but to react to the stimuli presented to our senses, and that's the world that we are forced to deal with and come to grips with. The world to which our senses connect us is necessarily the one we talk about. I also don't see such a so-called "axiom" as undemonstrable. Insofar as "reality" can be considered "that which manifests in a detectable way," it's necessarily true that sensory experience -- which is a means of detection -- more or less reliably connects us to reality, except in very rare cases of an utter psychotic break from reality (which, to the person experiencing it, would be undetectable anyway, making the point moot).

So I'm unclear what axioms you think I'm starting from. Can you name an axiom that you think I begin from? While I might disagree with you, I might partially or fully agree, depending on what you say.

If you can refrain from stamping your feet and running away this time, our conversation might prove interesting to readers -- instead of simply instructional, as it usually is.

Avshalom Binyamin

Again the tautology of defining reality as the detectable.

It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis.

Takamba

@Los said

"You appear to be laboring under the delusion that I care one way or another what you do."

Duh. Your presence only makes that obvious.

HounganRocky

In the threads that Los has graced the forum with his appearance and insight, I find an individual who can do nothing more but bait others for attention.

I wonder what sort of person this Los might actually be to spend so much of his time and energy trying to conjure some form of passive-aggressive attention from other members of the forum.

I'm not trying to instigate a fight, I'm simply pointing out what is painfully obvious.

chris S

From what i remember it originally started with some member, cant recall his name he changed it every time he came in..
He'd become a part of Los's collective fan base, i recall a section on another site where he'd gone complaining to Los that 'they' had banned him.. whoever "they" were.
The Admin of this site hadnt banned him because he merely disagreed (as Los's presence here bears that out) but because he was becoming hysterical.
Actually before that Los had stated that this forum's membership mainly consists of a bunch of complete fruitcakes and he'd informed his readers that he'd never post here, he believes though that forum is great food for his stand up routine that he offers his readers.. he's quite an upbeat guy actually.
Meh, as far as i'm concerned he's ok.. until he starts using bad testimony and pseudo science and expects to get away with it, when caught out he regresses to juvenile tactics to draw attention to himself.. the conversation then becomes rather amateur at best.

Simon Iff

In my opinion Los has a blind spot the size of the Himalayas as to his own intention of being here.

What can be said for him is that he seems to be honestly convinced that he has found "the truth" about ontological materialism and the philosophy of thelema - while, again imo, he has not understood either perspective beyond some very basic and superficial foundations.

I get the picture of someone who is very lonely - even when in a crowd - and have found myself asking if he has Aspergers (nothing against people who have it, but it would fit his style) when looking at his copy-and-paste way of debating issues.

Concerning the passive-agressive attention seeking, I guess that is his intention. Subconsciously.

Regards,

Sychological Simon

Frater 639

Come on, everybody posts for attention, no? Jesus. We're human. If we don't want responses, we can go write in a journal.

Attention is a basic biological and psychological need -- I'm glad the ubermensch (that doesn't need any attention) can let me know that oxytocin and vasopressin are terrible things...talk about a gaping hole in lack of self-realization AND epistemology rooted in materialism.

Attention-seeking seems to have negative connotations, when it is part of what makes us alive, human, animal, lovely, motivated, etc. Its value is probably best judged by the person seeking the emotional connection, if they care to examine themselves, and see what they take away from it and the effects it has on them. Also, it takes two to tango (sometimes more) - especially on the forum!

As far as the posts here -- I hate to break it to everyone, but Rush Limbaugh is an entertainer as well. And I don't think Rush takes himself that seriously. Whatever Los' motivations are, he's willing to put on that hat because some people find his brand of controversial opining extremely appealing. It's not like everybody is ignoring him...

Just look at the last three OT posts. They are leveled at Los' motivations...so it definitely seems like his posts are entertaining...so much that we see offerings aimed at his psychological and physiological constitution. To me, it's just as disturbing that people choose to profile someone's motivations with self-righteousness and extremely limited information.

THAT BOYS GOTTA DEMON I TELL YOU LETS GET EM.

Probably best to keep any psychological and physiological assessments about a given person confined to a clinical setting, and not just based on posts aimed at entertaining via the use of sensationalism and (sometimes) logical fallacies. I think Los' posts are wildly entertaining from a rhetorician's standpoint -- but, then again, I don't take rhetoric/semantic gymnastics personally or seriously.

How can I? I work in the public sector...

I think it's amazingly funny -- Los only seems to take the extreme divergent viewpoint when somebody else is just as passionate in the other direction. The world needs the skeptic as well as the idealist IMHO -- preferably in the same body...

Anyway, I apologize for the (mostly) OT post. I just abhor witchhunts -- probably has something to do with my opinion about Christist attitudes.

Simon Iff

Hi,

Can only answer for my own motivation ...

@Frater 639 said

"Come on, everybody posts for attention, no? Jesus. We're human. If we don't want responses, we can go write in a journal.

Attention is a basic biological and psychological need -- I'm glad the ubermensch (that doesn't need any attention) can let me know that oxytocin and vasopressin are terrible things...talk about a gaping hole in lack of self-realization AND epistemology rooted in materialism."

I did not mention critically that he wants attention and responses (I want that too or wouldn't, for example, post here ), but that he doesn't seem to be aware of his own motivations. Don't know if you have to be superhuman to observe something like that.

@Frater 639 said

"Attention-seeking seems to have negative connotations, when it is part of what makes us alive, human, animal, lovely, motivated, etc. Its value is probably best judged by the person seeking the emotional connection, if they care to examine themselves, and see what they take away from it and the effects it has on them. Also, it takes two to tango (sometimes more) - especially on the forum!"

Actually, agreed.

@Frater 639 said

"Whatever Los' motivations are, he's willing to put on that hat because some people find his brand of controversial opining extremely appealing. It's not like everybody is ignoring him..."

I found his reasoning interesting, even fascinating, though not entertaining, at first, until he began to turn himself into knots and his answers started to seem a copy-and-paste job from the sceptic's manual to me ...

@Frater 639 said

"Just look at the last three OT posts. They are leveled at Los' motivations...so it definitely seems like his posts are entertaining...so much that we see offerings aimed at his psychological and physiological constitution. To me, it's just as disturbing that people choose to profile someone's motivations with self-righteousness and extremely limited information."

So you have now taken it upon yourself to profile the profilers based on self-righteousness and extremely limited information, that'll teach them?

@Frater 639 said

"THAT BOYS GOTTA DEMON I TELL YOU LETS GET EM."

Nah. I at least never did want a witchhunt on Los. Even defended him when some people suggested he was just trolling. And, reaction begets counter-reaction, and when Los gives, he will have to be ready to take some, too, no?

@Frater 639 said

"Probably best to keep any psychological and physiological assessments about a given person confined to a clinical setting, and not just based on posts aimed at entertaining via the use of sensationalism and (sometimes) logical fallacies. I think Los' posts are wildly entertaining from a rhetorician's standpoint -- but, then again, I don't take rhetoric/semantic gymnastics personally or seriously."

Well, it's not as if he would have gotten a DSM diagnosis by his critics now. Though, as said, I am getting a whiff of Aspergers. Which does not have to be a bad thing at all. Did you know Einstein has been suspected to have been one due to his brain structure (analysed when dead) and personal mannerisms (when alive)? So.

@Frater 639 said

"I think it's amazingly funny -- Los only seems to take the extreme divergent viewpoint when somebody else is just as passionate in the other direction. The world needs the skeptic as well as the idealist IMHO -- preferably in the same body..."

He just doesn't argue his point of view very well when looked under the hood. Perhaps I would want to be entertained better.

@Frater 639 said

"Anyway, I apologize for the (mostly) OT post."

Apology graziously accepted.

@Frater 639 said

"I just abhor witchhunts -- probably has something to do with my opinion about Christist attitudes."

Concerning the witchhunts, agreed, but no one is starting any as far as I can see.

I have not often in my life been accused (?) / been attributed (!) "Christist attitudes". Actually, that's a first Well, OK, if it sticks ...

Regards,

Tongue-in-cheek Simon

Frater 639

@Simon Iff said

"
@Frater 639 said
"Come on, everybody posts for attention, no? Jesus. We're human. If we don't want responses, we can go write in a journal.Attention is a basic biological and psychological need -- I'm glad the ubermensch (that doesn't need any attention) can let me know that oxytocin and vasopressin are terrible things...talk about a gaping hole in lack of self-realization AND epistemology rooted in materialism."
I did not mention critically that he wants attention and responses (I want that too or wouldn't, for example, post here ), but that he doesn't seem to be aware of his own motivations. Don't know if you have to be superhuman to observe something like that."

Haha. But, actually, I think he is very aware of his motivations. I guess either one of them (aware vs. oblivious) is a judgment based on his actions from an online presence, no? A forum presence that seems to be aimed at controversy, etc. but has an underlying effect IMHO -- and an aspect of that effect is a display of how the intellect can be confounded using logic and rhetoric. Crowley talked about the same thing...

@Simon Iff said

"
@Frater 639 said
"Whatever Los' motivations are, he's willing to put on that hat because some people find his brand of controversial opining extremely appealing. It's not like everybody is ignoring him..."
I found his reasoning interesting, even fascinating, though not entertaining, at first, until he started to turn himself into knots and his answers started to seem a copy-and-paste job from the sceptic's manual to me ..."

I'm not debating the quality of the arguments, but the emotional reactions on all sides are entertaining - even after people apprehend the pattern of the content. You say fascinating, I say entertaining.

@Simon Iff said

"
@Frater 639 said
" Just look at the last three OT posts. They are leveled at Los' motivations...so it definitely seems like his posts are entertaining...so much that we see offerings aimed at his psychological and physiological constitution. To me, it's just as disturbing that people choose to profile someone's motivations with self-righteousness and extremely limited information."
So you have now taken it upon yourself to profile the profilers based on self-righteousness and extremely limited information, that'll teach them? "

Just to be clear, YOU are the one that leveled a DIRECT implication involving someone's psychological and physiological constitution (twice). My observation was in relation to* my reaction* to the general act of choosing to judge anyone from extremely limited information - and, honestly, self-righteousness isn't that bad, when taken in perspective.

We all profile, sure...we make assessments and compartmentalize...it's a great way to economize energy and, as you know, it's a part of our biology...but would I publicly post a pseudopsyche evalution about someone on the forum? Nope. Would I go further and seriously consider another's motivations, based on the evaluation? Nope.

If I did, I might publicly post about certain people's persecution anxiety and extrapolate the motivations for their reactions. Just kidding.

@Simon Iff said

"
@Frater 639 said
"THAT BOYS GOTTA DEMON I TELL YOU LETS GET EM."
Nah. I at least never did want a witchhunt on Los. Even defended him when some people suggested he was just trolling. And, reaction begets counter-reaction, and when Los gives, he will have to be ready to take some, too, no?"

Sure. And he does. But I've never seen him pretend to diagnose someone or insinuate they have an underlying behavioral condition...

@Simon Iff said

"
@Frater 639 said
"Probably best to keep any psychological and physiological assessments about a given person confined to a clinical setting, and not just based on posts aimed at entertaining via the use of sensationalism and (sometimes) logical fallacies. I think Los' posts are wildly entertaining from a rhetorician's standpoint -- but, then again, I don't take rhetoric/semantic gymnastics personally or seriously."
Well, it's not as if he would have gotten a DSM diagnosis by his critics now. Though, as said, I am getting a whiff of Aspergers. Which does not have to be a bad thing at all. Did you know Einstein has been suspected to have been one due to his brain structure (analysed when dead) and personal mannerisms (when alive)? So."

I'm getting a whiff of something else.

On the other point, I do think that "abnormal psychology" and some atypical brain structures are indicative of a type of evolution -- much of the medical community wants to box these conditions up and "treat" them. It could be argued it is because they don't fit in with our atavistic economic system and antiquated social contract. I think we're on the same page here...

@Simon Iff said

"
@Frater 639 said
"I just abhor witchhunts -- probably has something to do with my opinion about Christist attitudes."
Concerning the witchhunts, agreed, but no one is starting any as far as I can see.I have not often in my life been accused (?) / been attributed (!) "Christist attitudes". Actually, that's a first Well, OK, if it sticks ..."

I wasn't accusing YOU of anything. I was saying that what appears to be a witchhunt reminds me of people huddling together and persecuting others for unpopular opinions. That is the "Christist attitude" that I was referring to. If you don't have that attitude, then that statement does not apply to your behavior, right?

Simon, always a pleasure. I mean that sincerely.

Now, I'm afraid we're way OT...PM me if you want...or we can play dueling banjos all night (I'm pretty sure we both know the "not that!" game ). But, it won't change my opinion of you; which, for the record, is one of very high-esteem. Again, I mean that sincerely. Always enjoy your posts...

chris S

meh.. he's ok.

Simon Iff

@Frater 639 said

"Simon, always a pleasure. I mean that sincerely.

Now, I'm afraid we're way OT...PM me if you want...or we can play dueling banjos all night (I'm pretty sure we both know the "not that!" game ). But, it won't change my opinion of you; which, for the record, is one of very high-esteem. Again, I mean that sincerely. Always enjoy your posts..."

Hey, no hard feelings, I did mention tongue-in-cheek at the end

Cheers to you too, I am actually a confrontative person, have had to learn (with difficulty) to get along with people who have a need for harmony, and can be felt to come down harsher as intended due to me rarely saying "imo" - this goes without saying.

But, seeing as Los is a confrontative person too, he should be able to take it, and I actually value people's ability to confront (including Los's). If people play social games or do the silence act, I can much less with this than the other way around (I don't mean you, btw!) The latter shows hidden insecurity and hidden weakness to me. Los seems to be, at least, brutally honest as far as I mean to "get" him, if misguided in my eyes, and that is a rare quality in people.

Well, end of self-experiential session contribution.

Tongue-whereever-you-want-it,

Simon

Los

As ever, when supernaturalists cannot address the substance of my arguments, they become desperate to talk about anything else, and usually the easiest anything else to talk about are the wild fantasies that they evidently have about me.

In case anyone forgot, there's an interesting discussion to be had about whether all positions stem from axioms -- in the same sense of the word "axiom." The last part is what's important here. As I said above, I wouldn't deny that my engagements with the world, ever since I was born, started from the position that my senses connect me to reality, but as I argue above, I don't really see that as a choice, nor do I see it as indemonstrable.

Seen from that perspective, if you want to call it an "axiom," it's a very, very different kind of "axiom" than "Consciousness is the root of all" or "God exists." That is, I don't see those latter points as necessary or demonstrable in the slightest.

Feel free either to address the argument or to continue to have these bizarre fantasies about me. I'm sure the result will be entertaining either way.

Avshalom Binyamin

Senses = reality

Got it

Los

@Avshalom Binyamin said

"Got it"

You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical....

Takamba

@Avshalom Binyamin said

"Senses = reality

Got it"

@Los said

"
You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical...."

@Los said

"
Experience Has No Explanatory Power"

Oh "got" I think you was.

chris S

supernaturalist.. me?

omg ive been found guilty by association

Hermitas

Some dance to remember.http://www.e-tarocchi.com/crowley-thoth/images/swords2.jpgSome dance to forget.

Hermitas

So many times, as I read what I read, I see others reducing this debate to the argument of two irreconcilable perspectives, which are seen in simple terms as the "spiritualist" versus the "materialist."

When it comes to my own place in it, this is not the correct reduction.

I don't argue against Materialism altogether. In fact, I have on more than one occasion pointed others to the work of IAO131, who describes himself as a naturalist. He has an excellent understanding of the gods and experiences of Thelema from a psychological perspective and has written many excellent articles.

I do disagree with him ...myself understanding the spiritual realm as both real and highly psychological in nature... but he doesn't go around saying that Thelema should be rid of all those who do come from a more "spiritualist" direction.

Since someone has shown up on the forum who does express the opinions that those who are more "spiritualist" in their perspective are "fruitcakes" and that Thelema is most properly understood as being against such "nonsense," I oppose him as I admit the weaknesses of my own argument and point to the unadmitted (or unknown) weaknesses of his own. Both perspectives have weaknesses. This is nothing new to me.

For me, this debate is not most properly reduced to "spiritualist" versus "materialist."

For me, this debate is most properly reduced to "inclusivist" versus "exclusivist."

I am not attempting to win a victory for my own more "spiritualist" perspective. I am attempting to prevent a strong, confident, rhetorical voice from convincing others that one perspective alone can and should be victorious.

Whether or not I should be concerned at all for the philosophical weaknesses of others is a question I constantly confront within myself. However, I ultimately must consider my own counsel alone in the area of whether and how I attempt to help whatever brothers and sisters may be behind me on this particular aspect of the path.

I cannot seem to resist the compulsion to ensure that they understand that there is no reason to be made to feel ashamed of the more "spiritualist" of their perspectives. At some point, however, I probably will have to excuse myself and leave them to learn directly from such a confrontation themselves.

93

Frater 639

@Legis said

"So many times, as I read what I read, I see others reducing this debate to the argument of two irreconcilable perspectives, which are seen in simple terms as the "spiritualist" versus the "materialist."