Thelemic Materialism (Thelemic Philosophy)
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@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"Come on, everybody posts for attention, no? Jesus. We're human. If we don't want responses, we can go write in a journal.Attention is a basic biological and psychological need -- I'm glad the ubermensch (that doesn't need any attention) can let me know that oxytocin and vasopressin are terrible things...talk about a gaping hole in lack of self-realization AND epistemology rooted in materialism."
I did not mention critically that he wants attention and responses (I want that too or wouldn't, for example, post here ), but that he doesn't seem to be aware of his own motivations. Don't know if you have to be superhuman to observe something like that."Haha. But, actually, I think he is very aware of his motivations. I guess either one of them (aware vs. oblivious) is a judgment based on his actions from an online presence, no? A forum presence that seems to be aimed at controversy, etc. but has an underlying effect IMHO -- and an aspect of that effect is a display of how the intellect can be confounded using logic and rhetoric. Crowley talked about the same thing...
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"Whatever Los' motivations are, he's willing to put on that hat because some people find his brand of controversial opining extremely appealing. It's not like everybody is ignoring him..."
I found his reasoning interesting, even fascinating, though not entertaining, at first, until he started to turn himself into knots and his answers started to seem a copy-and-paste job from the sceptic's manual to me ..."I'm not debating the quality of the arguments, but the emotional reactions on all sides are entertaining - even after people apprehend the pattern of the content. You say fascinating, I say entertaining.
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
" Just look at the last three OT posts. They are leveled at Los' motivations...so it definitely seems like his posts are entertaining...so much that we see offerings aimed at his psychological and physiological constitution. To me, it's just as disturbing that people choose to profile someone's motivations with self-righteousness and extremely limited information."
So you have now taken it upon yourself to profile the profilers based on self-righteousness and extremely limited information, that'll teach them? "Just to be clear, YOU are the one that leveled a DIRECT implication involving someone's psychological and physiological constitution (twice). My observation was in relation to* my reaction* to the general act of choosing to judge anyone from extremely limited information - and, honestly, self-righteousness isn't that bad, when taken in perspective.
We all profile, sure...we make assessments and compartmentalize...it's a great way to economize energy and, as you know, it's a part of our biology...but would I publicly post a pseudopsyche evalution about someone on the forum? Nope. Would I go further and seriously consider another's motivations, based on the evaluation? Nope.
If I did, I might publicly post about certain people's persecution anxiety and extrapolate the motivations for their reactions. Just kidding.
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"THAT BOYS GOTTA DEMON I TELL YOU LETS GET EM."
Nah. I at least never did want a witchhunt on Los. Even defended him when some people suggested he was just trolling. And, reaction begets counter-reaction, and when Los gives, he will have to be ready to take some, too, no?"Sure. And he does. But I've never seen him pretend to diagnose someone or insinuate they have an underlying behavioral condition...
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"Probably best to keep any psychological and physiological assessments about a given person confined to a clinical setting, and not just based on posts aimed at entertaining via the use of sensationalism and (sometimes) logical fallacies. I think Los' posts are wildly entertaining from a rhetorician's standpoint -- but, then again, I don't take rhetoric/semantic gymnastics personally or seriously."
Well, it's not as if he would have gotten a DSM diagnosis by his critics now. Though, as said, I am getting a whiff of Aspergers. Which does not have to be a bad thing at all. Did you know Einstein has been suspected to have been one due to his brain structure (analysed when dead) and personal mannerisms (when alive)? So."I'm getting a whiff of something else.
On the other point, I do think that "abnormal psychology" and some atypical brain structures are indicative of a type of evolution -- much of the medical community wants to box these conditions up and "treat" them. It could be argued it is because they don't fit in with our atavistic economic system and antiquated social contract. I think we're on the same page here...
@Simon Iff said
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@Frater 639 said
"I just abhor witchhunts -- probably has something to do with my opinion about Christist attitudes."
Concerning the witchhunts, agreed, but no one is starting any as far as I can see.I have not often in my life been accused (?) / been attributed (!) "Christist attitudes". Actually, that's a first Well, OK, if it sticks ..."I wasn't accusing YOU of anything. I was saying that what appears to be a witchhunt reminds me of people huddling together and persecuting others for unpopular opinions. That is the "Christist attitude" that I was referring to. If you don't have that attitude, then that statement does not apply to your behavior, right?
Simon, always a pleasure. I mean that sincerely.
Now, I'm afraid we're way OT...PM me if you want...or we can play dueling banjos all night (I'm pretty sure we both know the "not that!" game
). But, it won't change my opinion of you; which, for the record, is one of very high-esteem. Again, I mean that sincerely. Always enjoy your posts... -
meh.. he's ok.
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@Frater 639 said
"Simon, always a pleasure. I mean that sincerely.
Now, I'm afraid we're way OT...PM me if you want...or we can play dueling banjos all night (I'm pretty sure we both know the "not that!" game
). But, it won't change my opinion of you; which, for the record, is one of very high-esteem. Again, I mean that sincerely. Always enjoy your posts..."Hey, no hard feelings, I did mention tongue-in-cheek at the end
Cheers to you too, I am actually a confrontative person, have had to learn (with difficulty) to get along with people who have a need for harmony, and can be felt to come down harsher as intended due to me rarely saying "imo" - this goes without saying.
But, seeing as Los is a confrontative person too, he should be able to take it, and I actually value people's ability to confront (including Los's). If people play social games or do the silence act, I can much less with this than the other way around (I don't mean you, btw!) The latter shows hidden insecurity and hidden weakness to me. Los seems to be, at least, brutally honest as far as I mean to "get" him, if misguided in my eyes, and that is a rare quality in people.
Well, end of self-experiential session contribution.
Tongue-whereever-you-want-it,
Simon
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As ever, when supernaturalists cannot address the substance of my arguments, they become desperate to talk about anything else, and usually the easiest anything else to talk about are the wild fantasies that they evidently have about me.
In case anyone forgot, there's an interesting discussion to be had about whether all positions stem from axioms -- in the same sense of the word "axiom." The last part is what's important here. As I said above, I wouldn't deny that my engagements with the world, ever since I was born, started from the position that my senses connect me to reality, but as I argue above, I don't really see that as a choice, nor do I see it as indemonstrable.
Seen from that perspective, if you want to call it an "axiom," it's a very, very different kind of "axiom" than "Consciousness is the root of all" or "God exists." That is, I don't see those latter points as necessary or demonstrable in the slightest.
Feel free either to address the argument or to continue to have these bizarre fantasies about me. I'm sure the result will be entertaining either way.
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Senses = reality
Got it
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Got it"
You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical....
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supernaturalist.. me?
omg ive been found guilty by association
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Some dance to remember.http://www.e-tarocchi.com/crowley-thoth/images/swords2.jpgSome dance to forget.
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So many times, as I read what I read, I see others reducing this debate to the argument of two irreconcilable perspectives, which are seen in simple terms as the "spiritualist" versus the "materialist."
When it comes to my own place in it, this is not the correct reduction.
I don't argue against Materialism altogether. In fact, I have on more than one occasion pointed others to the work of IAO131, who describes himself as a naturalist. He has an excellent understanding of the gods and experiences of Thelema from a psychological perspective and has written many excellent articles.
I do disagree with him ...myself understanding the spiritual realm as both real and highly psychological in nature... but he doesn't go around saying that Thelema should be rid of all those who do come from a more "spiritualist" direction.
Since someone has shown up on the forum who does express the opinions that those who are more "spiritualist" in their perspective are "fruitcakes" and that Thelema is most properly understood as being against such "nonsense," I oppose him as I admit the weaknesses of my own argument and point to the unadmitted (or unknown) weaknesses of his own. Both perspectives have weaknesses. This is nothing new to me.
For me, this debate is not most properly reduced to "spiritualist" versus "materialist."
For me, this debate is most properly reduced to "inclusivist" versus "exclusivist."
I am not attempting to win a victory for my own more "spiritualist" perspective. I am attempting to prevent a strong, confident, rhetorical voice from convincing others that one perspective alone can and should be victorious.
Whether or not I should be concerned at all for the philosophical weaknesses of others is a question I constantly confront within myself. However, I ultimately must consider my own counsel alone in the area of whether and how I attempt to help whatever brothers and sisters may be behind me on this particular aspect of the path.
I cannot seem to resist the compulsion to ensure that they understand that there is no reason to be made to feel ashamed of the more "spiritualist" of their perspectives. At some point, however, I probably will have to excuse myself and leave them to learn directly from such a confrontation themselves.
93
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@Legis said
"So many times, as I read what I read, I see others reducing this debate to the argument of two irreconcilable perspectives, which are seen in simple terms as the "spiritualist" versus the "materialist."
When it comes to my own place in it, this is not the correct reduction.
I don't argue against Materialism altogether. In fact, I have on more than one occasion pointed others to the work of IAO131, who describes himself as a naturalist. He has an excellent understanding of the gods and experiences of Thelema from a psychological perspective and has written many excellent articles.
I do disagree with him ...myself understanding the spiritual realm as both real and highly psychological in nature... but he doesn't go around saying that Thelema should be rid of all those who do come from a more "spiritualist" direction.
Since someone has shown up on the forum who does express the opinions that those who are more "spiritualist" in their perspective are "fruitcakes" and that Thelema is most properly understood as being against such "nonsense," I oppose him as I admit the weaknesses of my own argument and point to the unadmitted (or unknown) weaknesses of his own. Both perspectives have weaknesses. This is nothing new to me.
For me, this debate is not most properly reduced to "spiritualist" versus "materialist."
For me, this debate is most properly reduced to "inclusivist" versus "exclusivist."
I am not attempting to win a victory for my own more "spiritualist" perspective. I am attempting to prevent a strong, confident, rhetorical voice from convincing others that one perspective alone can and should be victorious.
Whether or not I should be concerned at all for the philosophical weaknesses of others is a question I constantly confront within myself. However, I ultimately must consider my own counsel alone in the area of whether and how I attempt to help whatever brothers and sisters may be behind me on this particular aspect of the path.
I cannot seem to resist the compulsion to ensure that they understand that there is no reason to be made to feel ashamed of the more "spiritualist" of their perspectives. At some point, however, I probably will have to excuse myself and leave them to learn directly from such a confrontation themselves.
93"
Enjoyed many of the ideas presented in this post. Much of it echoes my own understanding. Thanks.
I find the rebuttal to both "sides" of this thread are captured quite succinctly in this passage from Liber 333:
@Crowley said
" CHINESE MUSIC
“Explain this happening!”
“It must have a ‘natural’ cause.”
“It must have a ‘supernatural’ cause.” >>>>>>>>>>>>> Let these two asses be set to grind corn.May, might, must, should, probably, may be, we may safely assume, ought, it is hardly questionable, almost certainly—poor hacks! let them be turned out to grass!
Proof is only possible in mathematics, and mathematics is only a matter of arbitrary conventions.
And yet doubt is a good servant but a bad master; a perfect mistress, but a nagging wife.
“White is white” is the lash of the overseer: “white is black” is the watchword of the slave. The Master takes no heed.
The Chinese cannot help thinking that the octave has 5 notes.
The more necessary anything appears to my mind, the more certain it is that I only assert a limitation.
I slept with Faith, and found a corpse in my arms on awaking; I drank and danced all night with Doubt, and found her a virgin in the morning.COMMENTARY (ΜΕ)
The title of this chapter is drawn from paragraph 7.
We now, for the first time, attack the question of doubt.
“The Soldier and the Hunchback” should be carefully studied in this connection. The attitude recommended is scepticism, but a scepticism under control. Doubt inhibits action, as much as faith binds it. All the best Popes have been Atheists, but perhaps the greatest of them once remarked, “Quantum nobis prodest haec fabula Christi”. ["How we are helped by this fable of Christ!"]
The ruler asserts facts as they are; the slave has therefore no option but to deny them passionately, in order to express his discontent. Hence such absurdities as “Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité”, “In God we trust”, and the like. Similarly we find people asserting today that woman is superior to man, and that all men are born equal.
The Master (in technical language, the Magus) does not concern himself with facts; he does not care whether a thing is true or not: he uses truth and falsehood indiscriminately, to serve his ends. Slaves consider him immoral, and preach against him in Hyde Park.
In paragraphs 7 and 8 we find a most important statement, a practical aspect of the fact that all truth is relative, and in the last paragraph we see how scepticism keeps the mind fresh, whereas faith dies in the very sleep that it induces."
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The 'materialists' are by proxy entangled.
Spiritualists soar to the sky!
Both have their place, are needed
It is the one who denies that liesWish I could find my Book of Lies
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@Uni_Verse said
"The 'materialists' are by proxy entangled.
Spiritualists soar to the sky!
Both have their place, are needed
It is the one who denies that liesWish I could find my Book of Lies
"hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib333.html
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@Legis said
" I [...] point to the unadmitted (or unknown) weaknesses of [Los' argument]."
No, you don't. You baldly assert that my arguments have weaknesses -- just like that guy above baldly asserts that I have "blind spots" -- but you (like he) are never able to demonstrate that this is the case, in the same way that I (easily) demonstrate above that your arguments are laughably invalid.
"I am attempting to prevent a strong, confident, rhetorical voice from convincing others that one perspective alone can and should be victorious."
"Attempt" all you like. Call me when you can actually demonstrate your claims with anything more than bald assertion.
By the way, it's been way more than a dozen posts on this thread since I pointed to a specific topic of conversation -- the axiomatic basis of philosophical positions -- that we could pursue if you were actually interested. You're clearly not interested in having a serious conversation, since you've run shrieking away from real conversation, only to indulge in a kind of embarrassing bluster.
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@Los said
"Call me when you can actually demonstrate your claims with anything more than bald assertion."
Seriously now, Los. You never demonstrate your own claims. They turn out to be things you personally find good or bad underlaid with ontology from the 19th century.
While you conveniently ignore any facts or arguments to the contrary of your favourite ideas, such as that the existence of psychic micro-phenomena has been proven in all meta-studies here to date by a factor of a thousand billion billion bigger than the existence of the much-celebrated Higgs boson.
Talking to you, if done long enough, is like a merry-go-round. One always arrives at the same place afterwards, as do you.
It's not good kung-fu.
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No, Los,
As I already stated, it is worthless to attempt to suggest your axioms to you. It's already been done time and time again.
I say, "You think [this (axiom)]."
You say, "I never said that," or, "not my version of Materialism," etc.
I say, "It's inherent in your thinking."
You say, "Now you're arguing with the Los in your head."It's happened like 4 times already, and I'm tired of the re-run of the rhetorical maneuver.
As I have also previously said, you are either unfamiliar with the logical foundation of your own position, or you are refusing to own it and say it yourself as the result of a defensive posture.
Even now, your spit and vehemence is hardly anything but repetitive rhetoric. It's just passionate, confidently repeated unreality. People who have the ability to follow the philosophical logic of this conversation have been doing so for a while, and all of them find you quite lacking in substance and consistency.
Do you get it yet? I have far more respect for real, actual Materialists than I have for your partially understood, almost entirely rhetorical jumble of an argument.
What I have really begun to think is that you have not studied the philosophical grounding of your epistemology at all. It doesn't make it that far. You're more of an 19th century Materialist than a 21st century Materialist in that you actually seem to believe in the absolute perfection of your argument. You don't seem to have ever deconstructed it yourself. You yourself do not seem conscious of its inherent weaknesses.
And this, I think, is why you cannot accept and own those weaknesses, nor look on other's philosophical systems with understanding and acceptance amid diversity.
Instead, I'm beginning to think you've merely read more popular Materialist apologetics and rhetoric. You're all debate tactics and no intellectual integrity. It's like you know the FOX News version of Materialism, not the real one. Oh, you may feel you're intellectually honest. You may passionately feel you're being intellectually honest. But you're not. There's far too much lust of result in your logic. You're almost pure rhetoric, pure Truthiness.
At least as you manifest here...
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Los, here's why I won't play the "name my axioms" game with you.
Modernist Foundationalism - Our constructs of reality are logically based upon a foundation of unquestionable truth (axioms). Everything builds on top of this foundation like a building. Our task is to uncover the most primary unquestionable truth and to build a perfectly logical construction of reality on top of it.
Postmodernist Postfoundationalism - Our constructs of reality are derived from a multiplicity of sources: experience, logic, math, culture, etc. The constructs do not build upward from an unquestionable foundation but instead are suspended from a multiplicity of sources similar to the construction of a spider's web, with many anchor points. Our task is to question any supposed "unquestionable truth" in order to discover the roots of our own bias (though it may be impossible) and attempt continually to build a more functionally perfect web-like model of reality.
Los, you argue against others with the logical positivism and "correctness" of Modernist Foundationalism, seeing the reasoning of other positions as flawed and in need of redemption. However, when someone attempts to point out the known axioms of Modernist, Foundationalist Materialism, you retreat defensively behind a cloud of Postmodernist, Postfoundationalist Materialism, this creating this dynamic:
I say, "You think [this (axiom)]."
You say, "I never said that," or, "not my version of Materialism," etc.
I say, "It's inherent in your thinking."
You say, "Now you're arguing with the Los in your head."You attack from a position of axiomatic truths and defend from a position that rejects axiomatic truths.
Rhetorically, this works (for those who cannot see the inconsistency) because when in a defensive posture, you'll say something like, "I'm just saying Thelemites shouldn't waste their time on what cannot be proven," which is a perfectly legitimate (Postmodern, Postfoundationalist) opinion. It's perfectly consistent if you choose to function that way, based on your own knowledge and experience.
But when you attack others as if they are insane for taking any other position than yours on what may be said to be "proven" and why based on their own knowledge and experience, then that inherently assumes the (Modern, Foundationalist) sense of ultimate correctness derived from flawless logic based upon an unquestionable foundation.
Your attack and defense are philosophically inconsistent. That's how you are able to rhetorically maneuver around any suggestion that you have axioms, and that's why you keep getting accused of being nothing but an inconsistent rhetorical voice.
And that's why I'm not playing that game with you.
Knowingly or unknowingly, you cheat.
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Found a slightly relevant quote from Crowley when reading 'Energized Enthusiasm: A Note on Theurgy', which made me giggle thinking of this old thread;
"Consciousness, says the materialist, axe in hand, is a function of the brain. He has only re-formulated the old saying, “Your bodies are the temples of the Holy Ghost.”! "
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Nice one! That and the 333 quote earlier in the thread make me happy.
Los is happy to only grasp half of the equation, and it's not my business to disabuse him of his notions.
Plus, I really think that the quality of content that has resulted on this forum in response to his presence has really improved.
I think science is grand. And so are spirituality and art.
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@Legis said
"Your attack and defense are philosophically inconsistent. That's how you are able to rhetorically maneuver around any suggestion that you have axioms, and that's why you keep getting accused of being nothing but an inconsistent rhetorical voice."
Well, I don't think they're completely inconsintent. I think they are consistently lacking in definitive terms and a static position. As all language can be accused of...
As we've been over before, Los has stated a position that "reality" is something that you can "knock up against," which is a valid POV on one plane. Never mind love, gravity, oxygen, or any action or state of being verb for that matter. From what I can tell, his "materalist" position (probably one of many) thinks that "nouns" are roughly the only reality. He later said that experience is real, and we experience our imagination. Making the imagination real; but then, that's when it gets tricky -- the "things" inside that imagination according to him don't "really" exist because you can't "knock up against them" (like oxygen or love?). He's later postulated that anything that one senses is reality -- which includes ANYTHING explanable. One cannot describe anything that doesn't involve the intermediary of the senses.
So, perceptions of "something in the imagination" don't "exist" but yet they do, because our perceptions *a priori *utilize sensible description, and perceptions are experiences, and experiences are real, according to one POV of reality (including another stance that Los has taken) -- a valid POV on another plane. The planes, as a necessity, need to be considered to delineate these two POVs of "reality," a point that seems to be conveniently glossed over so the tireless "materialist" rhetoric can continue...
But I don't think he really holds a "materialist" position exclusively. However, he'll strum those strings when someone wants a song...and we all seem to like music!
Let's ask directly: Los, do you hold your "materialist" position exclusively? Do you adopt other philosophical positions at will? Has there been any pattern apprehension in regard to this?
To be useful, the "materialist" philosophical position should be balanced by the work of George Berkeley, or even Bertrand Russell, etc. who admit terms such as "subjective reality" IMHO.
Debating philosophy will ALWAYS end in a circular argument when taken to the extremes -- and that's why these threads are so important. To show that the intellect is always consistently Air and can go wherever without getting caught up as static (hopefully) -- and nothing is true, save the POV that perceives a truth.
But, you raise a good point. I think, as you mentioned earlier, that the mind should be inclusive. As far as my own practice, I use a variety of POVs -- and these are selected (to the best of my ability) as the most useful at the time, given the experience. I think Los does a good job of this -- and provides a stellar example of how the intellect should be used. As a tool that exchanges mundane philosophies at will, not rooted in static precepts, as you show in your examples. Instead of explicitly saying it, Los* shows * this "maleable mind" technique with alacrity.
I think his posts are actually a form of art. Good or bad is a matter of perspective.
@Laura Marx said
"Found a slightly relevant quote from Crowley when reading 'Energized Enthusiasm: A Note on Theurgy', which made me giggle thinking of this old thread;
"Consciousness, says the materialist, axe in hand, is a function of the brain. He has only re-formulated the old saying, “Your bodies are the temples of the Holy Ghost.”! "
"Hehe. I like this one!
@Crowley said
" ** THE VIGIL OF ST. HUBERT**
In the forest God met the Stag-beetle. "Hold! Wor- ship me!" quoth God. "For I am All-Great, All- Good, All Wise....The stars are but sparks from the forges of My smiths...." "Yea, verily and Amen," said the Stag-beetle, "all this do I believe, and that devoutly." "Then why do you not worship Me?" "Because I am real and your are only imaginary." But the leaves of the forest rustled with the laughter of the wind. Said Wind and Wood: "They neither of them know anything! COMMENTARY ({Nu}) St. Hubert appears to have been a saint who saw a stag of a mystical or sacred nature. The Stag-beetle must not be identified with the one in Chapter 16. It is a merely literary touch. the chapter is a resolution of the universe into Tetragrammaton; God the macrocosm and the micro- cosm beetle. Both imagine themselves to exist; both say "you" and "I", and discuss their relative reality. The things which really exist, the things which have no Ego, and speak only in the third person, regard these as ignorant, on account of their assumption of Knowledge."@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Plus, I really think that the quality of content that has resulted on this forum in response to his presence has really improved."
100% COMPLETE AGREEMENT