What defines "lust for result"?
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Very good analysis Los. I agree with Jim on the visualization part. Thank you.
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@kasper81 said
"Los articulated what I was going to say in that how would you FEEL if you attained that result? THAT is what you REALLY seek in the matter"
One of the great virtues and benefits of result-oriented ceremonial magick is that it brings us up against our resistant patterns (ways we make ourselves small) so that we have the opportunity to confront and redecide them. This especially applies to areas where we are divided against ourselves.
Hurling ourselves, at choice, against the universe purges us and refines us. The necessary preliminaries of examining shadow content etc. in preparation for an operation are a progressive unveiling of ourselves and freeing of our capacities.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Worse yet, you can't produce results without visualizing stuff."
Well, duh, but my point was that the visualizing of the stuff isn't a sufficient cause of a result.
Picturing your goal is probably a necessary condition of creating a conscious effect of some kind, but whether this "picturing" is a brief thought or a lengthy, detailed meditation makes practically no difference in terms of producing the effect. The thing that sufficiently causes the effect is physically making the change.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@kasper81 said
"Los articulated what I was going to say in that how would you FEEL if you attained that result? THAT is what you REALLY seek in the matter"One of the great virtues and benefits of result-oriented ceremonial magick is that it brings us up against our resistant patterns (ways we make ourselves small) so that we have the opportunity to confront and redecide them. This especially applies to areas where we are divided against ourselves.
Hurling ourselves, at choice, against the universe purges us and refines us. The necessary preliminaries of examining shadow content etc. in preparation for an operation are a progressive unveiling of ourselves and freeing of our capacities."
Depending on what you're talking about exactly here, you're either describing a process by which the individual deludes himself further by buying into stories about the "kind of person" he is that his mind is telling him, or you're talking about the discovery of the ways mind limits the individual by talking him into thinking he wants things that he doesn't really want.
Either way, it's completely unnecessary to believe unjustified claims about imagination "causing" stuff in order to create these kinds of coverings or unveilings.
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@Los said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Worse yet, you can't produce results without visualizing stuff."Well, duh, but my point was that the visualizing of the stuff isn't a sufficient cause of a result."
Nor did I say it was. Yet it evidently pushed some button that brought you out swinging. (Too much reading "The Secret"? <g>)
The full magical technique of employing visualization requires many steps of which forming the image ALONE is only one part or it.
"The thing that sufficiently causes the effect is physically making the change."
That's absolutely part of the technique as I've always taught it: Visualize the result in a way and includes YOU actively, and, as part of the process, take action.
We would probably differ most on where the impact originates. You dismiss what I consider key components, and we agree on at least one vitally important component.
All I said in my original statement, though, was that fear of failure means visualizing failure, and visualizing failure divides your will - splits your intention between part of your mind being committed to success and part of it committed to failure. That's true on a purely psychological level, so I'm not quite sure what bone you have to pick with it.
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"Overcoming lust of result is simply a process of learning to see these thoughts as the lies that they are."
IMO I more valuable approach to this would be to distinguish the context or the background in which those thoughts are happening. Using the example you provided Los, it's clear there's a particular future being hoped for that would produce those types of thoughts or that type of thinking.
So the first step would be to get what's happening in the background up in front of you and then the second step would be distinguishing the thoughts as just thoughts. To see the thoughts as lies is to place a meaning and interpretation on something that inherently has no meaning at all. They're just thoughts. Nothing more, nothing less than thoughts.
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@Al-Shariyf said
"To see the thoughts as lies is to place a meaning and interpretation on something that inherently has no meaning at all. They're just thoughts. Nothing more, nothing less than thoughts."
Well, they're thoughts that don't map to what's actually out there. These thoughts we're talking about are telling you that if you get that job or get that new relationship, then everything will be good, but those thoughts are not correct. Unlike, say, the thought that if I drive significantly faster than the speed limit, I risk getting a ticket, which is correct.
The "context" that produces thoughts like these tends to be a desire for everything to be peachy, which I'm guessing that most everybody has from a very early age, as anyone can tell if you remember going through the childhood stage of, "Just get me this toy, and then I'll never ask for anything again!"
As we get older, the "toys" get more sophisticated: relationships, jobs, degrees, titles, houses, etc.
Some people catch on to the cyclical process of desire and disappointment and more desire, so they decide that they're going to go for the ultimate toy: spiritual attainment.
But that's just the thing: attainment isn't a toy that's going to take away all of your problems. Attainment is precisely about realizing what a load of crap it is to keep searching for new toys. It's about paying attention not to the lies of the mind, but to the Will in the moment.
Not enough people realize that. They think "attainment" is some kind of superhuman state disconnected from everyday life. It's not. It's your everyday life -- with the same old problems, joys, trials, tribulations, and happiness -- just lived with a mindfulness that prevents you from getting attached to any mental phantasms or believing in the world created by your thoughts.
All of this "Magick" stuff is nothing more than a bunch of symbolic methods designed to try to snap you into realizing this. Mostly ineffective, I'd say, judging from all the people who simply replace one set of illusions about the world with another, murkier set of supernaturalist illusions.
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"Well, they're thoughts that don't map to what's actually out there. These thoughts we're talking about are telling you that if you get that job or get that new relationship, then everything will be good, but those thoughts are not correct. Unlike, say, the thought that if I drive significantly faster than the speed limit, I risk getting a ticket, which is correct.
The "context" that produces thoughts like these tends to be a desire for everything to be peachy, which I'm guessing that most everybody has from a very early age, as anyone can tell if you remember going through the childhood stage of, "Just get me this toy, and then I'll never ask for anything again!"
As we get older, the "toys" get more sophisticated: relationships, jobs, degrees, titles, houses, etc.
Some people catch on to the cyclical process of desire and disappointment and more desire, so they decide that they're going to go for the ultimate toy: spiritual attainment.
But that's just the thing: attainment isn't a toy that's going to take away all of your problems. Attainment is precisely about realizing what a load of crap it is to keep searching for new toys. It's about paying attention not to the lies of the mind, but to the Will in the moment.
"Well you're right in the sense that the thoughts don't map what's actually out there because there nothing out there to map. By out there I mean the future. There's no certain future point at more or less accurately. However, that doesn't mean that the hoped for future implied in the "If I have x, everything would be good" is entirely false. Maybe the presence of x would make things better in comparison to how they are now or how they once were.
But I get your main point: the point that in the dance of comings and goings that every single human being on this planet is doing right now, wishing for a new partner, a new pair of shoes, a shiny new outfit and a better spot on the dance floor won't make the music sound any better.
It's all about tuning into the rhythm, flowing with the rhythm, losing yourself in the rhythm, becoming the rhythm
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Life is cleverer
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@kasper81 said
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check out "chaos magick sigils" it's all about how to beat the part of you that lusts for result
ultimately though, why do you want to desire anything? it's all going to lead to sorrow anyway if you get it isn't it?"
Yeah, that is the Buddhist idea that desire leads to sorrow. I disagree, lack of desire leads to sorrow. It is when I desire the least that I sorrow the most. Anyway, I don't like Buddhism, and Thelema stuff has too much of that in it.
Wanting to want, when I was in a dark and sorrowful place all I wanted was to want. I mean, wanting, that is the most important part.You should continue to search for new and better toys and forget this enlightenment stuff. Some lower astral forces could just tell you what enlightenment is, and you could believe you have attained it.
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"Either way, it's completely unnecessary to believe unjustified claims about imagination "causing" stuff in order to create these kinds of coverings or unveilings."
I think you're mistaken there Los, People using their imaginations has created a situation where you have regaled us with your unveilings.
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@Shadow Self said
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@kasper81 said
"check out "chaos magick sigils" it's all about how to beat the part of you that lusts for result
ultimately though, why do you want to desire anything? it's all going to lead to sorrow anyway if you get it isn't it?"
Yeah, that is the Buddhist idea that desire leads to sorrow. I disagree, lack of desire leads to sorrow. It is when I desire the least that I sorrow the most. Anyway, I don't like Buddhism, and Thelema stuff has too much of that in it.
Wanting to want, when I was in a dark and sorrowful place all I wanted was to want. I mean, wanting, that is the most important part.You should continue to search for new and better toys and forget this enlightenment stuff. Some lower astral forces could just tell you what enlightenment is, and you could believe you have attained it."
Sounds like you've suffered from depression...?
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@Archaeus said
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@Shadow Self said
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@kasper81 said
"check out "chaos magick sigils" it's all about how to beat the part of you that lusts for result
ultimately though, why do you want to desire anything? it's all going to lead to sorrow anyway if you get it isn't it?"
Yeah, that is the Buddhist idea that desire leads to sorrow. I disagree, lack of desire leads to sorrow. It is when I desire the least that I sorrow the most. Anyway, I don't like Buddhism, and Thelema stuff has too much of that in it.
Wanting to want, when I was in a dark and sorrowful place all I wanted was to want. I mean, wanting, that is the most important part.You should continue to search for new and better toys and forget this enlightenment stuff. Some lower astral forces could just tell you what enlightenment is, and you could believe you have attained it."
Sounds like you've suffered from depression...?"
"And Adonai said: The strong brown reaper swept his swathe and rejoiced. The wise man counted his muscles, and pondered, and understood not, and was sad.
Reap thou, and rejoice!"
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Viewing a situation as Black or White
Success or Failure, Have or Have NotAll things must be considered equally.
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Do what you do for the value of doing what you do, not for some other value. "Gee, if I send her flowers, she'll forgive me." "Not likely after that row, but if you send her flowers - be sure you enjoy sending her flowers."
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Think of the desire to have sex.
You can call the desire itself bad and refuse to seek it because it will probably just end up in disappointment at some point. (abnegation of desire)
You can desire it, imagine it, work to have it, and be so tormentedly needy about it that you come off as an unattractive, desperate schmuck. (lust of result confounding results)
Or, you can desire it, imagine it, work to have it, and yet be equanimous enough about having it that you present an attractive confidence that will likely obtain it for you quickly. (desiring without the confounding lust of result)
The third technique is a complex hybrid of the first two that just works. But it takes some time and experience to develop the skill.
I think the analogy carries over into other realms as well.
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Yes. Desire isn't the problem. Objects of desire aren't the problem. Attachment to objects of desire is the problem. (Except when it's the tool.)