Sorcery??
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In Nick Halls book, Chaos and Sorcery, as performing magical without ritual or base....and i think how familiar this is, enflamation/gnosis, intent and results....how is this not the same??
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Im sorry, first sentence should be... un Nick Halls book Chaos and Sorcery he defines sorcery as performing n act of magick without ritual or base....
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"How is this not the same?"
Not the same as what?
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What is the differences between sorcery and the methid i described in the op...doesn't this also include sone practioners of thelema, do we prescribe to acts of sorcery as defined, is it the same?
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93,
It would depend on his definition of magick. Crowley defined every conscious act as an act of magick, so magick is not necessarily ritual based. I honestly see no difference in the two terms. Other than, for me sorcerer seems to connote the evocation of spirits to do ones bidding, whereas magick for me connotes spiritual development.
If he didn't include a glossary with his own definition of what he means by a word like that, who knows what he meant.
93, 93/93.
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"What {are} the differences between sorcery and {"performing {an} act of magick without ritual or base"}{?}"
generally 'sorcery' is unlicensed or morally condemned magical acts. generally superordinary action without ritual or a system of symbolism ('base'?) is psychicism, and not conventionally magic at all, let alone sorcery."...doesn't this also include {some practitioners} of thelema{?}"
no doubt some who affiliate are convinced of their psychic abilities. there's even some who call this 'direct magic'."do we prescribe... acts of sorcery as defined, is it the same?"
I think you must be referring to the Crowleyan attestation that magic not keyed to the accomplishment of the True Will or the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is 'black magic'. naturally, how to evaluate this is unconfined, and so, after the fact, anything might be justified with the contention that it is part of one's Great Work, one's negotiation with one's HGA, or one's True Will.Crowleyan Thelemians tend to invest belief in God Will in some superordinary sense such that one might synch in to a 'true' aspect or orbit, much like a 'true love'. this pits it against 'anti-God Will' and therefore is orthodox or RHP in its spin on magic. start talking about demons and you might learn that your cohorts or instructors are only interested in controlling and using demons, not in getting their cooperation to effect magical results, befriending them, or learning whatever style or system of magic that they may be interested in teaching. some claim that the Enochian spirits are similar, demonic, or powerful, dangerous, immoral, etc.
'black magic' in this sense is surely sorcery and so faithful and devoted Thelemic folks don't do it, no no no. that would be a waste of time and might incur upon someone's orbit, wreck their karma, and give them a black mark in God's eyes (whoever "God" might be - your guess is as good as mine).
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I wouldn't really say that is the new post-modern definition of sorcery, when I think sorcery I typically think of low-magick, also known as thaumaturgey, or practical magick. Basically I've seen it mostly defined as magick focused on achieving some goal on the mundane rather than spiritual goals or enlightenment.
I don't think thelemites typically think of that as evil, rather that, like anything, its good if you use it to do your true will, and a negative if it is not your true will.
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@Shadow Self said
"...I typically think of low-magick, also known as {thaumaturgy}, or practical magick. Basically I've seen it mostly defined as magick focused on achieving some goal on the mundane rather than spiritual goals or enlightenment."
strongly agreed that this is a common attitude and notion within ceremonial magic social circles. there is a heavy emphasis on separating the cosmos into mundane and mystical (compared to some Wicca or Satanism or LHP/Tantra which attempts to fuse or find the intersection between these). as Crowley put it, 'black magic' does not have as part of its aim or outcome the K&Cw/HGA, 'White Magick' does so, even if it is "mundane", thaumaturgical, or 'low' in this biased sense. that is, what makes an occult action 'sorcerous' or 'black magic' is its disconnection from the all-important spiritual aim.this mostly seems to occupy the interests and attentions of religious, including Crowleyans, Wiccans, and those after Blavatsky or some other cultist. more general witches and magicians think the subsumption of magic to religion is a travesty, a lie, and link condemnation to something moral (e.g. violation or deception, just like non-magical action) or technical (jettisoning all religious hang-ups and reconstructing the language to intelligent and sustainable ends).
"I don't think thelemites typically think of that as evil, rather that, like anything, its good if you use it to do your true will, and a negative if it is not your true will."
that sounds a little awkward. 'using your true will' only typically applies to orientation or to an unusual notion of volitional fuel. that is, to use one's true will as the delimiter of one's acts is to act ethically, according to a goodly number of Thelemians. to use it as the basis for magical achievement is typically undefined or undescribed. they simply don't often put magic in these terms that i've noticed ("magic drawing on the true will is legtimate, magic used to do things on a whim or false will is sorcery or black magic" is not something I've often heard). -
With some persons here I am developing a system of Thelemic Sorcery. Using verses of some Class A books insted psalms. In fact. personally I think the results are something very lacking in (some) thelemic organisations, and we are working on thelemic result magic. Obeah is sorcery and of course Obeah and Wanga sound as inspoiration, of course... and some of us here have Obeah initiation and use Liber L as Holy Book during preparation for trance and contact with ...
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I am not so much concerned with the white, black, evil or good perceptions as much as i am the act of magick without ritual or base or just plainly a direct connection to gnosis.
i prescribe fully to Crowley definition of magick without the interaction of the HGA as being black. However in accordance to Nick Halls definition and the results after specific moments of gnosis and the application of will this in of itself is sorcery. Isnt it?
It is very possible to have this link with the HGA so that h/she brings about desired results due to from being enflamed and your intent being realized. I think one poster addressed it as being direct magick.
Whatever the wiccans and Satanist or whoever does.is within their right and structure to do so. -
@Barrackubus said
"I am not so much concerned with the white, black, evil or good perceptions as much as i am the act of magick without ritual or base or just plainly a direct connection to gnosis."
Then, to give a quick answer - that's not a traditional definition of sorcery. Almost the opposite.
"However in accordance to Nick Halls definition and the results after specific moments of gnosis and the application of will this in of itself is sorcery. Isnt it?"
You're stacking the deck. You're asking, "If we use definition ABC *, then this particular thing that fits definition ABC is a fit for the definition, right?"