Secret Chiefs and attainment
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@kasper81 said
"It's plain wack. I mean the very name itself, "secret chief" is hilarious isn't it?"
It is. Plus the fact that, as far as I can tell, the concept of "Secret Chiefs" was just made up out of the blue in the eighteenth century.
But facts have never stopped wackadoos from claiming "contact" with all sorts of exalted spiritual forces.
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@kasper81 said
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@Frater Horus said
"I was wondering how is supposed to be related general attainment to communication with the Secret Chiefs. If there's a step where it is likely? Strong? Is there union with them?Also, is it considered possible to become a Secret Chief?
And what is their "power"(or position in the tree)? More than Magus? Ipsissimus?"
as a teenager this seemed all so mysterious and freaky and awesome. Now, as an adult, I cannot believe that Crowley was at all serious about this. It's plain wack. I mean the very name itself, "secret chief" is hilarious isn't it?
Then again maybe it is for the teenagers only
To see what you are veering into here I suggest you watch some youtube films on channellers switching on their possession by aliens. It's great stuff watching these fraudsters getting away with it"
I can honestly say, that given what I have seen and witnessed since things have really started for myself, the idea of "Secret Chiefs" does not seem out of
the realm of possibility. In fact, I would say in my view that it's more than possible, that it's fact. I wont claim to have contact with these beings, because I have yet to have anything like that happen. But, I have seen enough to know that this world is not what we think it is and when you see something that changes you forever you wont doubt the possibility that what we call "Secret Chiefs" could certainly be another phrase for something we cannot explain, and yet (Some of us) experience it anyway. As far as fraudsters are concerned, there certainly are many of them. However, simply because fraudsters exist does not negate the possibility of something genuine existing as well. It's like if I go to buy a car, simply because I have a negative experience does not mean EVERYONE is going to have a negative experience at some shitty dealership. Some people may go to a great dealer and have a positive experience, does not mean I should simply write off the idea that this is HOW IT IS. I certainly would never claim that I know for a fact something does not exist or that it's silly, I keep an open mind with just about everything. I still maintain doubt, but a little humility about this world we live in can go a long way. -
@kasper81 said
"as a teenager this seemed all so mysterious and freaky and awesome. Now, as an adult, I cannot believe that Crowley was at all serious about this. It's plain wack. I mean the very name itself, "secret chief" is hilarious isn't it?"
There are "Secret Chiefs," various personages of wealth and power, pulling the strings of government -
Is it so far fetched to propose there are exceptionally spiritual beings effecting the evolution of mankind?Perhaps the reality of the situation does not live up to the legend, they may be just "normal people" who only think they are in control of world events (though invariably have some effect).
@Los said
"It is. Plus the fact that, as far as I can tell, the concept of "Secret Chiefs" was just made up out of the blue in the eighteenth century."
An entirely inaccurate statement.
The idea of Secret Chiefs and Hidden Masters has been the foundation of various Orders [and traditions] going back thousands of years. -
@milkBoxx said
"I can honestly say, that given what I have seen and witnessed since things have really started for myself, the idea of "Secret Chiefs" does not seem out of
the realm of possibility. In fact, I would say in my view that it's more than possible, that it's fact."So I'll ask you the same question that Simon ran away from: what convinced you that these "Secret Chiefs" actually exist?
As was the case with Simon, I suspect that you've been convinced for crappy reasons, but I'm willing to be shown otherwise.
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@Uni_Verse said
"There are "Secret Chiefs," various personages of wealth and power, pulling the strings of government -
Is it so far fetched to propose there are exceptionally spiritual beings effecting the evolution of mankind?"Yes. As Kasper pointed out, the claim that there are some people with more pull than others in the government isn't in the same ballpark as the claim that there are spirits who flitter around unseen, sending "messages" to random weirdos.
"The idea of Secret Chiefs and Hidden Masters has been the foundation of various Orders [and traditions] going back thousands of years."
There have long been ideas of invisible magic men running the universe -- usually called "gods" -- but as far as I'm aware, the specific term "Secret Chiefs," especially as heads of so-called "magical orders," dates back to the eighteenth century.
If you have evidence of the term being used before then, I'd be interested to hear it.
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@Los said
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@milkBoxx said
"I can honestly say, that given what I have seen and witnessed since things have really started for myself, the idea of "Secret Chiefs" does not seem out of
the realm of possibility. In fact, I would say in my view that it's more than possible, that it's fact."So I'll ask you the same question that Simon ran away from: what convinced you that these "Secret Chiefs" actually exist?
As was the case with Simon, I suspect that you've been convinced for crappy reasons, but I'm willing to be shown otherwise."
I don't really feel it's necessary to spill out my reasons from my magical record. What I'm saying is, is that I have seen things that cannot be explainedby our consensus reality and what modern science can evaluate therefrom. I have not seen "Secret Chiefs", but generally only high ranking initiate's have
encounters with these beings from what I have been told. So, while they may not exist, I cannot say that I know this to a certainty. I've never been to France,
but I wouldn't say it does not exist. So, I'm not going to suppose they do not exist, and given what I have seen in my time so far, I would say it's more than possible.
All I can really say as far as my experiences go is that I have seen things that should be impossible, occur right before my eyes (With a witness who can corroborate).Frankly, the whole thing is very strange to me because I feel these things have to be kept to myself even from initiates (When I first started speaking to other initiates I was hoping they had experiences like myself) but I found many did not. This frightened me, because everything "Started" when initiation began and seemed to coincide with events pertaining to paths on the tree itself. All I can really say is that you can take my word for these experiences or not, really makes no difference to me because I saw these things regardless. While I would even have a tough time believing this if I hadn't first experienced it, especially from someone whom I don't know personally. I can tell you that, while I have not seen "Secret Chiefs" I have seen enough to know that this concept is not far fetched by any means. All I'm saying is to keep an open mind, you may have not seen anything bizarre but I believe that what I have seen may start becoming more commonly seen by others. BTW, it's not aliens and it's not even something I can describe nor have I ever heard of someone seeing something like this in (What we know as) physical reality. Believe me when I say, even as I saw these events before my very eyes with a witness I still could not believe it. In a way I still have yet to accept what I have seen, but I can say that it was there and I saw it. -
You've been convinced for awful reasons, exactly as I thought.
@milkBoxx said
" I have seen things that cannot be explained
by our consensus reality and what modern science can evaluate therefrom."So what? Everyone has experienced things they don't have explanations for.
What you're doing here is called an "argument from ignorance." You're saying that since you don't know what X was, therefore you're justified in claiming that Y is true. But you can't use "I don't know" as evidence for anyting.
I heard a noise last night, and I didn't know what it was. Does that mean I'm justified in thinking it was pixies?
" I have not seen "Secret Chiefs", but generally only high ranking initiate's have
encounters with these beings from what I have been told."And, obviously, you have no good reason to think that this is true, just 'cause some (probably wacked out) people claim it.
"So, while they may not exist, I cannot say that I know this to a certainty."
Well, duh. You can't know anything for "certain." No one knows anything for "certain." When we talk about knowledge, we're talking about likelihood.
I don't know for certain that leprechauns don't live under my house, but that's no reason for me to believe that it's true or even believe that it's anywhere near likely to be true.
"I've never been to France,
but I wouldn't say it does not exist."But you do have tons of evidence that it exists, including the fact that you can go to google earth right this second and look at it through a satellite.
You don't have any evidence -- not even a shred of it -- that these "Secret Chiefs" or any other gods or goblins or monsters actually exist. Except, I guess, "something happened, and I don't know what it was!"
Don't you see how weak that is?
"All I can really say as far as my experiences go is that I have seen things that should be impossible, occur right before my eyes (With a witness who can corroborate)."
And I saw an elephant disappear into thin air one time. That David Copperfield must be a high-ranking initiate, eh?
I don't doubt that you had this experience, but I question your interpretation of this experience (and your witness' interpretation of this experience).
" All I can really say is that you can take my word for these experiences or not, really makes no difference to me because I saw these things regardless."
You saw something, maybe. What was it, though? I don't know, and neither do you, but whatever it was, your ignorance about what you saw is no basis for making any claims at all.
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@Takamba said
"Los wants everyone to do his will. Nuff said."
No, I don't. I'm pointing out errors in drawing conclusions about the world. Conclusions aren't directed by the Will.
If you were in a math class, and the teacher showed that you were making mistakes in doing a problem, you wouldn't say, "Oh! This teacher wants this whole class to do his will!" You would understand that he's just showing you factual mistakes that you were making.
In the same way, I'm just pointing out glaring errors in thought, including arguments from ignorance.
To confuse that with Will is to demonstrate that you don't have a solid grasp on what "Will" means to begin with.
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@kasper81 said
"Milkbox
Noone is trying to denigrate you for talking openly about your experience of altered states, just develop your faculty of scientific cynicism, otherwise you will be heading for something, in the long-term, that will not be enlightenment at all. You get this? This is what Thelema is"
I really could care less, most people wouldn't believe me if I told them. There is no way to interpret the experience. I came from a background of hardcore Atheism
and a B.S in Radiation Science. I'm well versed in scientific cynicism, yet I cannot explain what I have seen. But like I said, I could care less if someone wants to insult me, I understand. Most people would think it's crazy, and I don't blame them and that's exactly why I don't talk specifics about my magical record. Cynicism works when you're not sure what you had seen. But I was close enough to know what I had seen, and frankly it should have been impossible. It wasn't an altered state either, this was completely sober and with a secondary witness. But I digress, this is exactly why I can't discuss it. -
@Los said
"No, I don't. I'm pointing out errors in drawing conclusions about the world. Conclusions aren't directed by the Will.
If you were in a math class, and the teacher showed that you were making mistakes in doing a problem, you wouldn't say, "Oh! This teacher wants this whole class to do his will!" You would understand that he's just showing you factual mistakes that you were making.
In the same way, I'm just pointing out glaring errors in thought, including arguments from ignorance.
To confuse that with Will is to demonstrate that you don't have a solid grasp on what "Will" means to begin with."
If this were a math class and you were the elected teacher, I wouldn't make that argument because if this were a math class then it must indeed be my will to learn math. Based on that solid fact, the fact that this isn't a math class, and you are not an elected teacher, your "teaching" is to teach people what your will has come to. You dismiss "Secret Chiefs" altogether whereas I have investigated and find some telling information that Crowley actually claimed to know about these "Secret Chiefs" and I have concluded he is correct.
I'll give you a hint: "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known." This was shown you in Chapter IX of Magick Without Tears (which you poo poo and suggest that everyone else ought to poo poo - er, do your poo poo with you). The question is, are you aware of elsewhere how Crowley writes about this verse? Therein you will discover the location and (nearly anyway) the identity of your Secret Chiefs (and LAM). But then again, LAM was probably just fantasy too.
Then again, when a thing is a metaphor and it suits your will to declare it a metaphor, you seem to understand that just fine. So maybe you will or maybe you won't understand Secret Chiefs. And the fact that your understanding grew over time (a long period of time, if I shall assume you to be an adult) has no consideration on how you treat other people and their "not as evolved understandings" because you want them to have your understanding "now, dammit. NOW!" And that's you trying to do their will for them (push them to your finish line).
A few weeks ago I complimented you on how you have made your style of communication more relatable and less insulting. Perhaps I spoke too soon (actually, relapse after identification and recognition of cognitive therapy results is incredibly normal, it's like a pendulum when someone tries to improve themselves, the team says "good job" and the subject falls right back into the old habits).
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@Los said
"So I'll ask you the same question that Simon ran away from: what convinced you that these "Secret Chiefs" actually exist?"
You have missed me!
I didn't run away, I noticed a tad too late that I was getting into the same loop as usual with you and decided to spare both of us and the rest of the forum another go on that loop.
@Los said
"As was the case with Simon, I suspect that you've been convinced for crappy reasons, but I'm willing to be shown otherwise."
That's nice of you, dear
Amused Simon
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@Uni_Verse said
"If I have a conversation in private with you, how can I prove it actually happened?"
If you told me that you had a conversation with a flesh-and-blood human being, and it seems plausible, I probably would be fine just taking your word for it.
But if you told me that you had a conversation with Elvis returned from the dead, then no, I would not just take your word for it. I would want some pretty compelling evidence before I accepted that claim, and you too -- if you were wise -- should also want some pretty compelling evidence before you accept that you really spoke to Elvis.
All claims are not created equal.
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@Los said
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@Simon Iff said
"And Los: These people are out there. But you won't find them if you are not looking."And what makes you think that Secret Chiefs are "out there"?"
I posted a version of the following account on Lashtal some time ago, and received nothing in response but the typical "spooks and goblins" criticism from Los he is known for. I have rewritten the story in order to shorten it for easier reading. I suspect Los will be at a loss to provide an explanation of the events other than to simply call me a kook, but I'm willing to give him or anyone else a shot at forming a theory on what actually happened.
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@Heru-pa-kraath said
"I posted a version of the following account on Lashtal some time ago, and received nothing in response but the typical "spooks and goblins" criticism from Los he is known for."
I wasn't the only one unimpressed by your claims, oh Child of the Prophet:
www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php?topic=5720.msg70685#msg70685"I suspect Los will be at a loss to provide an explanation of the events"
Obviously I can't explain an event I wasn't there for, but the fact that we don't have an explanation doesn't lend any weight to your outlandish implicit interpretation.
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I don't believe in Secret Chiefs. However, having had some unusual experiences myself, I don't rule out their existence.
Describing these unusual experiences to a skeptic is like trying to convince a lifelong desert dweller of torrential downpours, vast oceans, lush vegetation and lands of snow and ice. It puts them in the awkward position of having to take my word for it.
The fact is, I can not prove my experiences any more than I can prove that I dreamt of rainbow coloured badgers last night.
The fact that some unprovable claims may seem more plausible to a desert dweller than others is irrelevant. Their perspective, based upon their own limited, meager experiences, in no way defines what is possible. -
@JNV33 said
"I don't believe in Secret Chiefs. However, having had some unusual experiences myself, I don't rule out their existence.
Describing these unusual experiences to a skeptic is like trying to convince a lifelong desert dweller of torrential downpours, vast oceans, lush vegetation and lands of snow and ice. It puts them in the awkward position of having to take my word for it.
The fact is, I can not prove my experiences any more than I can prove that I dreamt of rainbow coloured badgers last night.
The fact that some unprovable claims may seem more plausible to a desert dweller than others is irrelevant. Their perspective, based upon their own limited, meager experiences, in no way defines what is possible."Nicely put.
In this context, the crux of this "experience as reality" issue always seems to do with the "I" problem. It's not about the belief not being flexible -- in many cases it is about the "I" being flexible enough to adopt a* useful *belief without bias at will! Doesn't invocation help train for this?
Nothing is a thing-in-itself -- all beliefs are always relational and a matter of perspective. A belief is a belief, whether it is limiting has to do with the interfacing of infinite variables and relative usefulness to "self and other" -- some can be measured quantitatively, some cannot...
In any event, this confirmation bias argument never gets old on the forum, does it?
Until the intellect and emotion come under control of the Will, speaking of magick and mysticism is worse than useless outside of training -- and the most effective training is unique to a specific individual's needs. IMHO this instruction is best done within a student/mentor model. That way we don't prescribe albuterol for a leg cramp.
Secret Chiefs? Crowley didn't even know if he himself was one! Or did he? Or did he believe in them? Sure -- when it was beneficial, he sure did...
But so many people always want to dictate what is beneficial for EVERYONE in ALL situations -- especially when it comes to beliefs. I guess if you want to act like a Christian, go right ahead!
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@JNV33 said
"The fact is, I can not prove my experiences any more than I can prove that I dreamt of rainbow coloured badgers last night."
It's not your experience that skeptics doubt: it's your interpretation of those experiences.
I don't doubt that someone may have had an experience that felt like talking to a Secret Chief -- or even like receiving a "message" from one in the form of a daydream. What I doubt is their interpretation that there really was a Secret Chief.
And like it or not, they had best doubt that interpretation as well, if they don't want to be fooled by their own (rational) minds and (rational) interpretations.