Mental Processes—Two Only are Possible
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Frater639,
I'm taking the last bit to mean that he found about 2/3 of all the words spoken to a candidate unnecessary.
Speaking as someone who really pours over the meaning of words and as someone who is definitely not an auditory learner, I can tell you that for me, less is more in most cases.
Give me a few clear interesting words, and I'll be taking them apart and putting them back together quite intensely, especially in the context of a ritual. Try to do all that analysis and synthesis for me (instead of me) by adding more and more words, and what will really happen is that I'll just tune you out and stick with what really stood out anyway.
But there are certain one-sentence principles that I've found myself remembering and working on for years. For me, that's the kind of thing that really gets inside and sticks.
And if you want to make sure that both analysis and synthesis occur, maybe one function being dominant during the ritual while the other gets more emphasis later, then a wall of words is just no good.
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@Legis said
"Try to do all that analysis and synthesis for me (instead of me) by adding more and more words, and what will really happen is that I'll just tune you out and stick with what really stood out anyway. "
Oh, me too...absolutely...
Going further, I think there is a natural backlash that happens when one person tells the other person what the priorities should be. Evolution is evolution -- each along their own lines.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
In communication, I would consider analysis of concepts to be using the Sword. How about the Cup? Examples? I'm actually thinking about what you've referred to as Mind in other posts...
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This is also related to the way the right brain and the left brain processes information*. The right brain sees wholes (Cup) and the left brain sees parts (Sword). The Sword being largely free of emotions and the Cup subject to tendencies, as in Crowley's quote, fits very neatly, though perhaps calling the function of the right here B + C = A might be a little misapplied, as math has been classically labelled a left brain function
@Crowley said
"The surface of the water in the Magick Cup is infinite; there is no point different from any other point."
The above very strongly reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's TED talk My Stroke of Insight, where she describes a right brain forward view of the world, which certainly rings in general support of the Cup = right brain theory.
Now obviously in life you need both functions. In magickal terms, to give one example, ritual is going to tap the right brain function to get your imagination cooking. Interestingly, meditation practice will train you to focus both sides of the brain on the same type of activity, calling up more processor power to the task at hand. Otherwise, as in everyday regular consciousness, there may be discordant or even contrary activity between the brains. This offers a fascinating alternative - and physical - view on the Middle Pillar.
- And yes, science has come to the point where it now thinks a lot of classically right/left brain functions actually happen in both at the same time, but there is still meat left to the division - it's perhaps just not as absolute as believed in the past. See Psychology Today deal with the topic here
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Frater639,
Maybe this is something that was on Crowley's mind when he wrote that, but using words to create synthesis instead of analysis can be quite difficult. Seems like there has to be some kind of knot to force them back together. Don't know if it's really a good example, but this one has been with me today due to another thread:
"The Devil is God as [He] is misunderstood by the wicked."
There's one you can't break apart without it putting itself back together. The knot is in the word "wicked." How can you say "The Devil is God" and ultimately relativize it all and then call someone "wicked" at the end? But then you have the word "misunderstood" in there to put some spin on "wicked" and tie it back together to the falsely perceived duality at the beginning. Their impulse to see "wickedness" in what they do not understand must arise from within a misunderstood and rejected-as-wicked part of themselves. In other words: "The problem with this analysis is the analyst's lack of synthesis." But for all these analytical words, the reader will still have to go back and think on it for themselves. I've just made more words to analyze in addition to the rather powerful little sentence itself.
Does that get at what you're asking? Not sure.
Another thought I had regards a dream from not too long ago. There was a powerful voice heard speaking as if before some sort of Council. He was making his case arguing against something on the grounds that it was immoral. But what he actually said was that the particular thing was morally "irreprehensible," which literally means the direct the opposite of the emotion and direction of the case he made.
I wondered for a while if my subconscious just shared my own sometimes blurry vocabulariazationism.
But after a while, I crunched it as an intentional "knot." I myself could see the argument both ways, and the message of the argument wasn't the focus of the dream. The dream focused on the passion of the speaker, the speaker's True Will, if you will, not the particular manifestation in that moment.
So, in that case, there was a synthesis that went beyond the particular expression and pointed more to the flavor of the Will instead of its expression at that particular point in "history."
Is this the kind of thing you're asking?
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I guess what I'm trying to say is that if one is going to attempt to use words (whose nature are distinctive and separative) to promote synthesis, then it has to be in a way that aids in short-circuiting analysis while still expecting to be analyzed.
0=2
You know?
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@Legis said
"I guess what I'm trying to say is that if one is going to attempt to use words (whose nature are distinctive and separative) to promote synthesis, then it has to be in a way that aids in short-circuiting analysis while still expecting to be analyzed.
0=2
You know?"
To wrap that idea around my earlier point, language is indeed a left brain function (and considered so post the general critique of the left/right brain paradigm), so in that manner if we take synthesis to be a largely right brain function it is indeed created in different hemispheres, so the way to one is not the way to the other.
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@Deus Ex Machina said
"... so the way to one is not the way to the other."
Yes, it can only try to point in the other direction. But all the pointing itself may be analyzed without synthesis.
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@Deus Ex Machina said
"* And yes, science has come to the point where it now thinks a lot of classically right/left brain functions actually happen in both at the same time, but there is still meat left to the division - it's perhaps just not as absolute as believed in the past. See Psychology Today deal with the topic here"
Yes! Very interesting response. I find the same thing, there is some correlation....I think you'll like this:
@Frontiers in Human Neuroscience said
"Human experiences can be broadly divided into those that are external and related to interaction with the environment, and experiences that are internal and self-related. The cerebral cortex appears to be divided into two corresponding systems: an “extrinsic” system composed of brain areas that respond more to external stimuli and tasks and an “intrinsic” system composed of brain areas that respond less to external stimuli and tasks. These two broad brain systems seem to compete with each other, such that their activity levels over time is usually anti-correlated, even when subjects are “at rest” and not performing any task. This study used meditation as an experimental manipulation to test whether this competition (anti-correlation) can be modulated by cognitive strategy. Participants either fixated without meditation (fixation), or engaged in non-dual awareness (NDA) or focused attention (FA) meditations. We computed inter-area correlations (“functional connectivity”) between pairs of brain regions within each system, and between the entire extrinsic and intrinsic systems. Anti-correlation between extrinsic vs. intrinsic systems was stronger during FA meditation and weaker during NDA meditation in comparison to fixation (without mediation). However, correlation between areas within each system did not change across conditions. These results suggest that the anti-correlation found between extrinsic and intrinsic systems is not an immutable property of brain organization and that practicing different forms of meditation can modulate this gross functional organization in profoundly different ways. "
NDA=means "no difference" between exterior and interior roughly...I see this as very relatable to the Cup.
Every ray of the sun expands the flower.
The surface of the water in the Magick Cup is infinite; there is no point different from any other point.further reading:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250078/ -
Try this one in the spirit of the other quote I mentioned:
Matter is Mind as it is perceived by other Matter.
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@Legis said
"I guess what I'm trying to say is that if one is going to attempt to use words (whose nature are distinctive and separative) to promote synthesis, then it has to be in a way that aids in short-circuiting analysis while still expecting to be analyzed.
0=2
You know?"
Absolutely. Someone explained this to me once as the Sword trying to explain the Cup, inherently and inevitably mixing the planes.
As far as promoting synthesis...to me, the questions are just as important as the answers when it comes to "growing together" and exchanging ideas.
I think questions are a great method -- there are no answers other than our own.
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"One must learn to think well before learning to think; afterward it proves too difficult." (Anatole France)
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@Legis said
"So, in that case, there was a synthesis that went beyond the particular expression and pointed more to the flavor of the Will instead of its expression at that particular point in "history." Is this the kind of thing you're asking?"
Not exactly. I'm trying to ask about practical examples about how you think the Cup may be used to receive the Will...especially in the context of these lines about the Cup from Book 4, Part II:
@Crowley said
"His Will errs actively by opposing itself to the Universal Will.
His Understanding errs passively when it receives influence from that which is not the ultimate truth.
In the beginning the Cup of the student is almost empty; and even such truth as he receives may leak away, and be lost.
They say that the Venetians made glasses which changed colour if poison was put into them; of such a glass must the student make his Cup.
Very little experience on the mystic path will show him that of all the impressions he receives none is true. Either they are false in themselves, or they are wrongly interpreted in his mind.
There is one truth, and only one. All other thoughts are false.
And as he advances in the knowledge of his mind he will come to understand that its whole structure is so faulty that it is quite incapable, even in its most exalted moods, of truth.
He will recognize that any thought merely establishes a relation between the Ego and the non-Ego."Sometimes, I tend to look at the Ego as the statement and the non-Ego as what we aspire to with the question...
What do you think he means about there is only one truth? What does this mean in our day to day path practically? Especially in light of the Universal Will. What does he mean by that?
That's really what I'm trying to delve into...
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
""One must learn to think well before learning to think; afterward it proves too difficult." (Anatole France)"
"Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art."
"You've got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail."
-- Charlie Parker
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@Frater 639 said
"Yes! Very interesting response. I find the same thing, there is some correlation....I think you'll like this:
@Frontiers in Human Neuroscience said
"Human experiences can be broadly divided into those that are external and related to interaction with the environment, and experiences that are internal and self-related. The cerebral cortex appears to be divided into two corresponding systems: an “extrinsic” system composed of brain areas that respond more to external stimuli and tasks and an “intrinsic” system composed of brain areas that respond less to external stimuli and tasks. These two broad brain systems seem to compete with each other, such that their activity levels over time is usually anti-correlated, even when subjects are “at rest” and not performing any task. This study used meditation as an experimental manipulation to test whether this competition (anti-correlation) can be modulated by cognitive strategy. Participants either fixated without meditation (fixation), or engaged in non-dual awareness (NDA) or focused attention (FA) meditations. We computed inter-area correlations (“functional connectivity”) between pairs of brain regions within each system, and between the entire extrinsic and intrinsic systems. Anti-correlation between extrinsic vs. intrinsic systems was stronger during FA meditation and weaker during NDA meditation in comparison to fixation (without mediation). However, correlation between areas within each system did not change across conditions. These results suggest that the anti-correlation found between extrinsic and intrinsic systems is not an immutable property of brain organization and that practicing different forms of meditation can modulate this gross functional organization in profoundly different ways. "
NDA=means "no difference" between exterior and interior roughly...I see this as very relatable to the Cup.
Every ray of the sun expands the flower.
The surface of the water in the Magick Cup is infinite; there is no point different from any other point.further reading:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250078/"Oh, I like! That goes into my evolving notes on the subject.
Since we're all about quotations in this thread now.. this is what rings in my head:
@Crowley in Liber Tzaddi vel Hamus Hermeticus said
"33. I reveal unto you a great mystery. Ye stand between the abyss of height and the abyss of depth.
- In either awaits you a Companion; and that Companion is Yourself.
- Ye can have no other Companion.
- Many have arisen, being wise. They have said “Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It.”
- Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, “Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime.”
- I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!
"
Edit - Oh, one more addition to the topic as well:
The Sword slices and slices until it finds the minutest constituent particle, ie. Hadit. The Cup joins and joins until it it joins all, ie. Nuit.
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@Deus Ex Machina said
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Crowley in Liber Tzaddi vel Hamus Hermeticus wrote:- I reveal unto you a great mystery. Ye stand between the abyss of height and the abyss of depth.
- In either awaits you a Companion; and that Companion is Yourself.
- Ye can have no other Companion.
- Many have arisen, being wise. They have said “Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It.”
- Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, “Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime.”
- I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!
Edit - Oh, one more addition to the topic as well:
The Sword slices and slices until it finds the minutest constituent particle, ie. Hadit. The Cup joins and joins until it it joins all, ie. Nuit."
Agreed! Ah, made me think of two more!
@Crowley, Chapter 15, Liber 333 said
"Mighty and erect is this Will of mine, this Pyramid of fire whose summit is lost in Heaven. Upon it have I burned the corpse of my desires.
Mighty and erect is this Φαλλοσ of my Will. The seed thereof is That which I have borne within me from Eternity; and it is lost within the Body of Our Lady of the Stars.
I am not I; I am but an hollow tube to bring down Fire from Heaven.
Mighty and marvellous is this Weakness, this Heaven which draweth me into Her Womb, this Dome which hideth, which absorbeth, Me.
This is The Night wherein I am lost, the Love through which I am no longer I."@Crowley, Chapter 8, Liber 333 said
"Mind is a disease of semen.
All that a man is or may be is hidden therein.
Bodily functions are parts of the machine; silent, unless in dis-ease.
But mind, never at ease, creaketh "I".
This I persisteth not, posteth not through generations, changeth momently, finally is dead.
Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting.
"But, still looking for the idea of the practical usefulness of the Sword and the Cup -- the Sword definitely can destroy, and the Cup can construct. What are we constructing with this synthesis in our Path, individually and collectively? Is this the point of the Cup and how it relates to the Universal Will and the Will of the individual?
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@Frater639 said
"What do you think he means about there is only one truth? What does this mean in our day to day path practically? Especially in light of the Universal Will. What does he mean by that?
That's really what I'm trying to delve into...
But, still looking for the idea of the practical usefulness of the Sword and the Cup -- the Sword definitely can destroy, and the Cup can construct. What are we constructing with this synthesis in our Path, individually and collectively? Is this the point of the Cup and how it relates to the Universal Will and the Will of the individual?"
Honestly, man, it feels a little like you are asking for someone else to make a good attempt at effing up a description of an ineffable truth. lol...
I'm smelling some Socratic method here.
You first.
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"From MWT: Chapter XXVI: Mental Processes—Two Only are Possible
I’d really like some help with teasing this concept apart, if anyone is game:
Crowley wrote:
There are two operations, and only two, possible to thought. However complex a statement may appear, it can always be reduced to a series of one or other of these. If not, it is a sham statement; nonsense masquerading as sense in the cloak of verbiage and verbosity.
Analysis, and Synthesis; or,
Subtraction, and Addition.- You can examine A, and find that it is composed of B and C. A = B + C.
- You can find out what happens to B when you add C to it. B + C = A.
As you notice, the two are identical, after all; but the process is different.
"
There are only two ways the brain/nervous system can translate....
One is with subtraction which I would equate with the concept of death, the idea of making things smaller.The other is with addition which I would equate with concepts of life, the idea of making things largerAll mysteries are solved in the heart, consciousness is in the heart. And once you get the tyrannical brain infecting the primal heart and the blood, well then consciousness can do more then just masturbate.
I would say that the practical applications of the Cup and the Sword are innumerable. I personally can think of a million and one ways to slay myself with the sword, and I bet most men can think of quite a few ways to drown in the Cup.I could make a funny joke here about how I think you might be making this harder then it needs to be......
But, well that would be a ridiculous statement coming from me, as I like to make certain things as hard as they can be.Here is a link to a story that I learned years and years ago. I know you have a very keen mind for symbolic language, so I think you may easily get some deeper messages from it's simple words....(btw, it's probably based on so e Crowley writing, but I wouldn't know which off hand).
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Here's the link
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@Legis said
"
@Frater639 said
"What do you think he means about there is only one truth? What does this mean in our day to day path practically? Especially in light of the Universal Will. What does he mean by that?That's really what I'm trying to delve into...
But, still looking for the idea of the practical usefulness of the Sword and the Cup -- the Sword definitely can destroy, and the Cup can construct. What are we constructing with this synthesis in our Path, individually and collectively? Is this the point of the Cup and how it relates to the Universal Will and the Will of the individual?"
Honestly, man, it feels a little like you are asking for someone else to make a good attempt at effing up a description of an ineffable truth. lol...
I'm smelling some Socratic method here.
You first.
"Haha! I've been fucking up ineffable truths for years -- so, I'm not too proud anymore. Answering my own questions is pretty masturbatory, and sounds super preachy, but if you insist I go first -- I'm totally down with it in good faith.
Anyway, my description of the one truth is worth just as much as Crowley's. That's the only truth there is IMHO:
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
Day-to-day practically, it means that restriction of my True Will is like nails on a chalkboard, and an aspect of that True Will is a removal of preference beyond the present. This has created momentum that causes my projections and recollections to melt together into Perfect Happiness -- which makes further investments into an ongoing "directed automaticity" in regard to Light in Extension -- which helps to strengthen constructing and destructing attitudes/actions in right relation to any given phenomena, in line with my True Will. The benefits go beyond the mental and the physical only...
In short, I'm the Beast to my Whore and the Whore to my Beast.
Even "dark nights of the soul," are transmuted into directing my Path, as the alarm that's meant to sound when something needs attention/direction.
Universal Will, to me, is simply natural evolution without restriction, with all parts working in harmony, as they already do -- under a macrocosmic lens or a microcosmic lens -- since they are merely scales of magnitude of the same structure -- no difference.
As far as the Cup individually -- it means a lot. The Chariot speaks to me a great deal about this. Without an essay, it feels hollow, ready to be filled. Does that make sense?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__rX_WL100
Collectively, it is an aspect of my True Will to dedicate my life in service of the A.'.A.'. We are helping to grow humanity with an Eye in a specific direction -- and the motto is Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. When the restrictions are continually being lifted, and the prizes are increasingly willing to be taken, more than a few will know what freedom is...and the slaves will continue to serve because they know not Love.
Practically, the Sword removes the bullshit in my life, and the Cup brings everything that is worth working with closer. Knowing the difference gets easier as the intuition grows. They are both wonderful slaves, but terrible masters. Learning to think critically for myself is what I use the Sword for (with some occasional jousts for sport
), the Cup is used for the only thing that provides a Value greater than the individual POV itself i.e. Love. I become you/you become me and we cut out the unnecessary bullshit/realize what we want from each other, if anything at all -- but we tend to all want something from each other i.e. Love.It is this Cup that is filled by the Universal Will and the individual Will -- macrocosmically and microcosmically. And that is my one truth. What's yours?
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@Angel of Death said
"I would say that the practical applications of the Cup and the Sword are innumerable. I personally can think of a million and one ways to slay myself with the sword, and I bet most men can think of quite a few ways to drown in the Cup. "
Haha! Yep. What an eloquent way to put it.
@Angel of Death said
"I could make a funny joke here about how I think you might be making this harder then it needs to be......But, well that would be a ridiculous statement coming from me, as I like to make certain things as hard as they can be."
Hard and soft are both necessary -- twin gods for sure.
@Angel of Death said
"Here's the link
www.paganlibrary.com/stories/descent_goddess.ph"
Haha! Exactly. Some truths are best told with a story...