Sidereal Pentagram and Concourse of Forces?
-
Mathers model of the pentagram placed on zodical round is set to the seasons based on the fixed signs:
Counterclockwise = Aquarius mid winter, Taurus mid spring, Leo summer solstice, Scorpio autumn equinox.The Tetragrammaton is used in The Concourse of Forces to assign elemental and zodiacal qualities:
Y(fire & the cardinal signs) H(water & the fixed signs) V(air & the mutable signs) H(earth & 4 elements)My question is if I operate using the sidereal system does this throw off the various pentagram rituals and Enochian correspondence? They all seem to be seasonal/tropical astrology based.
Thanks
-
The seasonal explanations are usually someone's attempt to create explanations after the fact. Don't worry about explanations
So no, no impact - at least, not in anything you mentioned or anything I can think of at the moment.
-
-
@MMA_Magus said
"So no matter the system used Enochian, Goetia, Picatrix, etc. Sidereal can always be applied?"
No, I only answered for the things you asked about originally. We have to look at the exact use in a particular framework to answer each question individually.
But since the Tropical Zodiac is a complete fiction, if you do find something that necessarily relies on it, then it's flawed and arbitrary.
"Since the zodiac "moves" in the sidereal system how are the elements represented? The solstices and equinoxes would keep shifting right?"
No, the zodiac doesn't move in the Sidereal system. The Sidereal zodiac is fixed against the whole of space. It's the Tropical system, based on the moving equinoctial point, that is in perpetual retrograde motion against the body of space. (That's why the Sidereal Zodiac is called the Fixed Zodiac, and the Tropical Zodiac is called the Moving Zodiac.)
Yes, the zodiacal longitudes of the solstices and equinoxes are in motion. Right now the northern hemisphere summer solstice (for example) occurs when the Sun is at 5° Gemini.
I'm not sure what your question about the elements is. (I can imagine many.) The association of the elements to the zodiacal triplicities was a Medieval Tropical invention.
-
My main concern is with establishing the elemental correspondence within the Enochian system and the use of the pentagram.
"... since the Tropical Zodiac is a complete fiction, if you do find something that necessarily relies on it, then it's flawed and arbitrary....
...The association of the elements to the zodiacal triplicities was a Medieval Tropical invention."So when working with the elements, they should solely be considered terrestrial/Malkuth, not celestial/Chockmah to Yesod?
To me this calls into question the whole logic of the Golden Dawn's Concourse of Forces. The Dee pure material only associates The watchtower's with directions, not elements like the golden dawn does. It seems maybe they were fixated on Eziekiel's vision and tried to make everything from the terrestrial to celestial have an element correspondence.
In regards to the pentagram's element association i guess its just because of the order of density; from spirit, to fire, to air, to water, and finally to earth. Also the Pentagrammaton read around in a circle linked to Jesus clockwise IHVShH, and counterclockwise IHShVH.
-
@MMA_Magus said
"My main concern is with establishing the elemental correspondence within the Enochian system and the use of the pentagram."
The pentagram attributions don't change. They're the same as in every standard reference on the subject.
"So when working with the elements, they should solely be considered terrestrial/Malkuth, not celestial/Chockmah to Yesod?"
Malkuth is called "the field of the Elements." Whether you want to think of that as terrestrial is a separate theoretical question (useful when useful, not useful when not). I'm not quite sure what the distinction means for you in practice rather than just in theory, and I don't want to feed into arbitrary theoretical distinctions that hogtie you.
"To me this calls into question the whole logic of the Golden Dawn's Concourse of Forces. The Dee pure material only associates The watchtower's with directions, not elements like the golden dawn does. It seems maybe they were fixated on Eziekiel's vision and tried to make everything from the terrestrial to celestial have an element correspondence.[/quote[
Bigger question that I can tackle on a busy day. You're starting to thing more broadly, though, yes - to see, perhaps, that there are individual pieces of an overawning theory, and the integrity of the pieces is not necessarily related to the integrity of the whole (or vice versa). One of the hard things about answering this is that you have certain 'rules' or associations set up in your mind - I can't be sure (without microscopic examination, step by step) what conclusions you'll draw from my saying "Yes" vs. "No" to any particular question."In regards to the pentagram's element association i guess its just because of the order of density; from spirit, to fire, to air, to water, and finally to earth. Also the Pentagrammaton read around in a circle linked to Jesus clockwise IHVShH, and counterclockwise IHShVH."
"The pentagram Order pattern is primarily the deployment of YHShVH, yes. Dump any other explanation. That's the key idea. The particular deployment of YHVH in that exact sequence shows up over and over again in many things, almost as a universal cypher of the mysteries.